1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Default Online NFPA FF1 course

    With our state fire marshalls office begining to feel the pressure from fire departments to increase the number of FF1's. It would seem that they would consider accepting qualified online courses and then conduct the practical and written exams.

    Grand awardees, who state in their applications that they will increase compliancy numbers whether it is FF1, driver and operator, and even wildland training/certifications need to satisfy these 'promises' when they accept the award. However I learned that our SFM office is spending the bulk of their *classroom* training time trying to keep up with these requests from fire departments who are trying to honor their grant management commitments.

    Since our state does not allow online classrom FF1, are there other states that do and have they been well received? Have they been productive?
    Last edited by jam24u; 11-19-2009 at 03:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    247

    Default

    While I think a lot of stuff can be done online, I'm not sure that a basic training course like this should be one of them. That being said, seeing as how this is an extremely power-point focused classroom experience and seeing as how instructor quality can vary quite a bit, some probably could be done online if someone took the time to put together a very interactive course so that you're just not clicking through the slides.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Way South of the Mason Dixon line
    Posts
    515

    Default

    I agree with auxman, FFI & FFII are not classes to be taken while sitting in front of a computer.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    emtguy625's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    42

    Default

    I agree as well they should be all hands on and in class room. However there are companies who run successful on-line courses for you to do all the class room stuff then do a 2 week "boot camp" of skills. I knew someone who did this for FF1 and FF2 concurrently. He went to a school in Texas. Unsure the name of it but it is over 2500 dollars as well, so is it worth it?

    I say no because of the cons involved - no comaredie with your class, you cram all the practical into a short time, no chance to fail and then have time to redo, tons of pressure on your part to do the book work correctly, tough to find mentors qualified and list goes on.

    I hated my fire school at first but now I look back and remember the experience, the friendships and my instructors and view as one of the best times of my life.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    87

    Default

    I tend to agree.

    I like the idea of being able to jump from a book to a truck to drive a point home.

    It could be done online with mini boot camps.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Default

    Kinda what I thought. I too preferred the instructor led class, but the last time our county had a 1001 FF1 class was in 2005. It gets kinda hard to meet those grant promises then. I definately do not want to be denied because of a lack of increase in FF1 enrollments.

    Anyway, I see and feel the same as you all do. I'm still kinda caught in between though. If a young go getter takes the online and completes it, that shows a desire and initiative. On the other hand, am not sure I want a online student responding unless he's been with the department for a number of years and can grasp the course content.

    I know this sounds wishy-washy, but when your talking compliancy with hundreds of thousands of dollars you've accepted from the feds, you need to 'cover your b*$t'.

    thanks for the input.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    51

    Default

    Illinois has the online Firefighter II (our basic, don't ask why we call it the II).All cognitive skills and tests are done online. Students are expected to complete all of the practicals with a certified instructors, which can be obtained at the student’s fire department, an IFSI regional training center, or at the IFSI Champaign Fire Academy facility.

    The practicals are pretty easy, especially if the "online class" gets together a couple of times with instructors to do the practicals, or if the student's own department has a strong training program. I was lucky in that aspect. I must confess that you do miss the comradeship that comes with being in a group of guys and gals going through hell together, but for some people, the online is the only option. I'd rather have certified firefighters who know what they're doing, then none at all I suppose.

    For experienced non-certified firefighters, I would recommend it. We have a couple guys taking it, but they've been on for more then three years and have quite a bit of experience. For someone fresh on with no practical experience, no way in heck.

    Here's the link:
    http://www.state.il.us/osfm/PSandE/OnLine.htm

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    247

    Default

    That IL course seems like a major rip-off for an online state course. $250 each for 22 online modules? Yes, some cost wouldn't be out-of-line, but that is just outrageous. Guess they're not really interested in promoting the use of it at that price, especially for volunteers.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    51

    Default

    $250 for each mod, which comes up to $750 for A, B & C. Compared to the local community college tution rate to take the same class, that is very comparable.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    247

    Default

    The page you linked to then wasn't very clear as it made it seem as if there were 22 separate modules, but you're saying that there are only three? If that is the case then its probably not too bad.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    I tried to do something similar a couple of years ago as part of a regional project, but got shot down by our fire marshal's office due to concerns about ensuring attendance.

    The idea was to do a satellite class, where the instructor was at one location and could be broadcasted to other stations/locations via an internet connection. Everything could be done live. But, like I say, they were concerned about ensuring attendance at the other locations.

    My project was going to be the hardware (computer, camera system, projector, etc) and software to do the broadcasting and all, along with the cost of delivering the course to the firefighters in the county. A side benefit is that it integrates with what our SEMA is trying to do with connections to various EOC's across the state. During large scale events (tornado, ice storm, flooding, etc), our LEPD/county EOC could connect in to the stations/EOC's on a local level and have live meetings without us having to leave our jurisdiction and go to the EOC. It also has a lot of potential beyond just FF I and II training.

    Maybe it's something Nebraska would be willing to do? I'm still going to try to push it in Missouri, as there's areas where it's VERY hard to find a FF I and II class.

    Our current alternative is using the available instructors to teach a "floating" class around the county. We're at one department right now, then we'll move to another in a different part of the county next fall, then another... If you have the instructors (or can send someone to get it), it gets a bit easier. Of course, you guys are a bit more scattered out than we are, but regionalizing a class is considerably better than not having anything anywhere close at all.,

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Exclamation Potential

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I tried to do something similar a couple of years ago as part of a regional project, but got shot down by our fire marshal's office due to concerns about ensuring attendance.

    The idea was to do a satellite class, where the instructor was at one location and could be broadcasted to other stations/locations via an internet connection. Everything could be done live. But, like I say, they were concerned about ensuring attendance at the other locations.

    My project was going to be the hardware (computer, camera system, projector, etc) and software to do the broadcasting and all, along with the cost of delivering the course to the firefighters in the county. A side benefit is that it integrates with what our SEMA is trying to do with connections to various EOC's across the state. During large scale events (tornado, ice storm, flooding, etc), our LEPD/county EOC could connect in to the stations/EOC's on a local level and have live meetings without us having to leave our jurisdiction and go to the EOC. It also has a lot of potential beyond just FF I and II training.

    Maybe it's something Nebraska would be willing to do? I'm still going to try to push it in Missouri, as there's areas where it's VERY hard to find a FF I and II class.

    Our current alternative is using the available instructors to teach a "floating" class around the county. We're at one department right now, then we'll move to another in a different part of the county next fall, then another... If you have the instructors (or can send someone to get it), it gets a bit easier. Of course, you guys are a bit more scattered out than we are, but regionalizing a class is considerably better than not having anything anywhere close at all.,
    Reading your post set some wheels in motion. There is a lot of potential behind that project. Many other practical options that could be taken advantage of. I must say it has its eyes on the horizon and could clear the way for a lot of related and non fire related uses. With Cisco broadcasting these webinars with DHS grants director Michael Paddock, I could see something similar being done on your end, but with your side having the options and more control. Could get a lot done.

    Your SFM office turned this down because they would not be able to identify the attendance according to their course standards? We have got to get these SFM offices geared to find out ways to satisfy their requirements and then figure out a way to satisfy those federal agencies demands. We are the ones in the middle and we are supposed to get them to meet in the middle when they are working opposite of each other? Let them spend the money to find the solution to solve certification vs compliancy issues then.

    This is all getting a little old. I also want the SFM office to have a full time SFM marshalls give the courses. Not their satellite fire marshals giving the courses. Seen too many discrepancies.

    I must say Catch, to me your idea seems to be in line with what the future has in store.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    51

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by auxman View Post
    The page you linked to then wasn't very clear as it made it seem as if there were 22 separate modules, but you're saying that there are only three? If that is the case then its probably not too bad.
    Correct, it's not that bad at all. 22 subject areas, only three modules. That's us here in Illinois, clear as mud!

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    MetalMedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    The Home of Smucker's Jelly
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    It has been 29 years since I attended a Basic Firefighter Program, but from what I am hearing from instructors, it has been reduced to entirely a classroom format with optional hands-on programs that the instructors run because it is the right thing to do. The thinking being that recruits should get basic knowledge in the class, and then be taught the hands-on of the job at their home departments. If all that is required to get the NFPA FF1 certification is classroom knowledge, you might as well do it online which will give you faster results so that you can actually take your "boots" and teach them how to do the job at the station.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    With our state fire marshalls office begining to feel the pressure from fire departments to increase the number of FF1's. It would seem that they would consider accepting qualified online courses and then conduct the practical and written exams.

    Grand awardees, who state in their applications that they will increase compliancy numbers whether it is FF1, driver and operator, and even wildland training/certifications need to satisfy these 'promises' when they accept the award. However I learned that our SFM office is spending the bulk of their *classroom* training time trying to keep up with these requests from fire departments who are trying to honor their grant management commitments.

    Since our state does not allow online classrom FF1, are there other states that do and have they been well received? Have they been productive?
    I know in MN they have been playing with this idea of online testing. From what I understand they take the classroom part online then Have "tests" to make sure they understand the information. They also go in to a classroom every other saterday and do the hands on skills testing.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HFDINSTR View Post
    I know in MN they have been playing with this idea of online testing. From what I understand they take the classroom part online then Have "tests" to make sure they understand the information. They also go in to a classroom every other saterday and do the hands on skills testing.
    Has the Minnesota SFM officially begun requiring FFs to NFPA 1001 FF1 to even touch a nozzle or are have they limited it to requiring FF1 before doing an interior attack?

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Upstate (Albany area), NY
    Posts
    422

    Default

    Jumping into this discussion late, but I just can't see the value of an on-line FF1 course. Instructor led - yes. Blended learning - possibly. On-line - NO WAY!
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Has the Minnesota SFM officially begun requiring FFs to NFPA 1001 FF1 to even touch a nozzle or are have they limited it to requiring FF1 before doing an interior attack?
    My understanding is the SFm has required all new FF to be FF1 at a minimum. I have heard that they are attempting to get all depts and all FF to be FF1. It is an idividual depts decision as to when the new firefighter can enter a structure. Of course if you follow NFPA that is after the new firefighter has completed an approved scba course and passed.

    Our dept allows our new members to ride the truck from day one on the dept. They are ONLY allowed certain functions on the fire ground such as rolling hose, getting equiptment, anything not in the hot zone unless it is an in an out, ie give axe to senior FF. We feel that they can learn a lot in school but also need to be trained as to how we as a dept operate on the fire ground.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    attendance according to their course standards? We have got to get these SFM offices geared to find out ways to satisfy their requirements and then figure out a way to satisfy those federal agencies demands. We are the ones in the middle and we are supposed to get them to meet in the middle when they are working opposite of each other? Let them spend the money to find the solution to solve certification vs compliancy issues then.

    .
    Jam, and Catch.

    The State Fire Marshals office here in Missouri has IMHO, always been a bit rash on their training protocols. Not with what they want for content, but I just feel like they are overboard on the rules. (Jim, and Kim, don't get me wrong, I think you do a good job, but are seriously out of touch with outstate - much like many of the other agencies in Jeff)

    We only have FF1 and FF2 offered as a package. There is no way I know of, for someone to take FF1 only.

    We can't do any part of it online. We can't do it through distance learning. (we can't verify attendance? Puhleaze. They trust a Chief over thousands upon thousands of dollars of equipment, the lives and safety of our firefighters and patrons, and the mitigation of disasters and hazards, yet we don't trust them to say who attended the classes???) We still have to test by the Fire Marshals office, with them as proctors.

    I have people who only drive tankers. That is their job, they never even get out of the drivers seat. That is all they want to do, and when my biggest operational challenge is water delivery I need these folks. Do they really need to have FF1 and 2? I am between a rock and a hard place with NFPA and FEMA, and the state of Missouri.

    Catch - what do you do? Do you only worry about FF1 and 2 for fireground people? What would you consider a person who is only responsible for rehab operations? What should they train to? What about people who only want to be an engineer, drive and pump?

    I have people to do entry and fireground ops - but in order to have these people, I need to have the ancillary positions filled with others. What level of training should each of these people recieve, considering Missouri only offering it as FF1 and 2?

    Lets look at a fireground scene,

    1. Entry people
    2. backup people (2 in 2 out)
    3. Engineers
    4. Runners (I need a 12 foot pike pole in front)
    5. Water delivery
    6. Rehab ops
    7. Traffic control
    8. Command

    Do all these people need FF1 and 2? Is the local EMS service included?


    Missouri offers basic firefighter in one class, the entry level course,
    and FF1 and 2 in another class.

    Where does Basic Firefighter play into NFPA 1001? It used to be referenced as an entry level course - do you have to move on from there?

    We need more alternatives - distance based, web based, software based. Make them show their skills in practicals, and test to the state.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 11-28-2009 at 02:53 AM.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Jam, and Catch.

    The State Fire Marshals office here in Missouri has IMHO, always been a bit rash on their training protocols. Not with what they want for content, but I just feel like they are overboard on the rules. (Jim, and Kim, don't get me wrong, I think you do a good job, but are seriously out of touch with outstate - much like many of the other agencies in Jeff)

    We only have FF1 and FF2 offered as a package. There is no way I know of, for someone to take FF1 only.

    We can't do any part of it online. We can't do it through distance learning. (we can't verify attendance? Puhleaze. They trust a Chief over thousands upon thousands of dollars of equipment, the lives and safety of our firefighters and patrons, and the mitigation of disasters and hazards, yet we don't trust them to say who attended the classes???) We still have to test by the Fire Marshals office, with them as proctors.

    I have people who only drive tankers. That is their job, they never even get out of the drivers seat. That is all they want to do, and when my biggest operational challenge is water delivery I need these folks. Do they really need to have FF1 and 2? I am between a rock and a hard place with NFPA and FEMA, and the state of Missouri.

    Catch - what do you do? Do you only worry about FF1 and 2 for fireground people? What would you consider a person who is only responsible for rehab operations? What should they train to? What about people who only want to be an engineer, drive and pump?

    I have people to do entry and fireground ops - but in order to have these people, I need to have the ancillary positions filled with others. What level of training should each of these people recieve, considering Missouri only offering it as FF1 and 2?

    Lets look at a fireground scene,

    1. Entry people
    2. backup people (2 in 2 out)
    3. Engineers
    4. Runners (I need a 12 foot pike pole in front)
    5. Water delivery
    6. Rehab ops
    7. Traffic control
    8. Command

    Do all these people need FF1 and 2? Is the local EMS service included?


    Missouri offers basic firefighter in one class, the entry level course,
    and FF1 and 2 in another class.

    Where does Basic Firefighter play into NFPA 1001? It used to be referenced as an entry level course - do you have to move on from there?

    We need more alternatives - distance based, web based, software based. Make them show their skills in practicals, and test to the state.
    Jim, Kim, and the rest of the gang do a dang good job considering the amount of work they have, I won't argue that. But I agree with you, I think the Division AND MU are way out of touch with anything ouside of the I-70 corridor.

    At least in Missouri we have that Basic Firefighter Skills course, which is only 32 hours and can be taught by anyone with an Instructor I certification (it may even just be a FF I and II certification).

    I talked with the Division about the FF I aspect and the issue with the grants wanting FF I. Their opinion, and one I have a hard time disagreeing with once I heard it, is that while it takes however many hours to do a FF I and II class, it takes a lot longer to break them up and do them individually. If you think about it, after doing water supply for FF I, you have to do it for the FF II level. It's actually less time to combine the two and teach them together.

    I know at one time our fire marshal wanted to establish a minimum requirement of Basic Firefighter Skills for any firefighter in the state. That legislation a few years ago allowing for tax breaks for volunteers with 32 hours of training and 12 CE training was the foot in the door to moving that direction, from my understanding. Personally, I think that's a good idea and 32 hours within the first year isn't too much to ask, but there are differing opinions.

    I'm thinking about trying to figure out something acceptable to ensure attendance with my previous idea, be it an instructor at every location or what I don't know. The idea was get the classroom in a distance learning format and do skills and all at a single location, reducing drivetime. Maybe I need to get more chiefs onboard and get them to start calling up to Jeff.

    MU presents an entirely new situations when it comes to the more specialized training beyond what the Division does. We've tried for several years to get a variety of classes down here without any success. They get all the classes along the I-70 corridor lined out and everyone else is screwed.

    Myself and another guy I know are Instructor II and are trying to write some classes that fit what we need down here, as well as get some train-the-trainers for various things. We managed to get a couple of guys to teach us a train-the-trainer for silo/elevator operations (fire and rescue) so we can do it. I've been working on a rural water supply class, as well as a basic pump operations class, and he's written an Advanced SCBA class that has been very popular around here and at Summer Fire School. But, just like everything else, MU won't hardly present it anywhere when it's requested. The nice thing is it's his class and he can teach it where he wants, so we have some leaway.

    They're starting a state instructors organization. I don't know if that'll help or not, but I'm going to see.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kinderhook, NY,USA
    Posts
    2

    Default

    New York State has an online Firefighter I course that is called blended learning. The student must do the book work online. Then in two week blocks we ( I am one of the instructors) meet they are required to provide us with a rip & run ( a printed sheet that shows that they have completed the online work including tests). The lead Instructor has the codes to view and check the progress of the student. Once we have the rip & run we do the skills for that section of the curriculum. This progarm is working well , the down side is that the student must be a good manager of time and a good self starter.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Default

    In Nebraska. NFPA 1001 FF1 is separate. I agree an instructor lead class is preferable for another reason. With classroom instruction it is that, but when a student can apply what is taught, it can help them to understand why something is done a certain way and also if they can apply what they learn, it is easier for the student to retain the material to memory later on when testing.

    Now besides this online NFPA 1001 and my query as to it being offered and practical, is the testing system. Certifications is the goal along with overall safety of firefighters.

    The only real reason why I believe a state would include FF1 and FF2 as a package is for the career departments. Most all career departments are going to require the candidate to have FF2 by a certain period of time.

    I will elaborate later on today or tomorrow as I have to check on the grants section.

    ****btw Missouri Tigers***, Your helmets are HOT! .I don't even know why I like them. Look something like a pistol grip, but I do like them. This year has been a year of tryouts for uniforms. Missouri and TCU have the hotest helmets.

    (This post was actually rational. Can hardly believe it with the stress of the AFG right now)
    Last edited by jam24u; 11-28-2009 at 07:21 PM.

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffshultis View Post
    New York State has an online Firefighter I course that is called blended learning. The student must do the book work online. Then in two week blocks we ( I am one of the instructors) meet they are required to provide us with a rip & run ( a printed sheet that shows that they have completed the online work including tests). The lead Instructor has the codes to view and check the progress of the student. Once we have the rip & run we do the skills for that section of the curriculum. This progarm is working well , the down side is that the student must be a good manager of time and a good self starter.
    That seems very interesting. Is there a location that gives a better description?

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    long island ny
    Posts
    241

    Default

    I can see doing the classroom portion online. But there has to be somewhere to go for standardized hands on instruction. N.Y. is now 15 classroom 3 hour classes and eight half day hands on. There's alot of info to cover.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    ****btw Missouri Tigers***, Your helmets are HOT! .I don't even know why I like them. Look something like a pistol grip, but I do like them. This year has been a year of tryouts for uniforms. Missouri and TCU have the hotest helmets.

    (This post was actually rational. Can hardly believe it with the stress of the AFG right now)
    I hadn't seen those helmets before today. Of course, I haven't watched a lot of Mizzou football this year, not that I've missed much. But they do look pretty sweet!

    You're just complimenting us because you know the Huskers won the north.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. NFPA 1901 Annex B - Editable Online Version???
    By seabasssears in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-27-2009, 09:04 PM
  2. Online FF-Is?
    By NismoFire in forum Emergency Services Training
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-12-2008, 04:29 AM
  3. need haz-mat ops online
    By mulletslayer in forum Hazardous Materials General Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-28-2007, 11:31 PM
  4. NFPA 1403 vs NFPA 1081
    By SWLAFireDawg in forum Probie House: The Place for Newbies
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-13-2007, 11:02 PM
  5. Need online NJ EMT help
    By BLSboy in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-13-2004, 01:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register