1. #26
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    Cool Huh.....

    Originally posted by jam24u
    It can be compared to our fire apparatus. Just how safe can we get these vehicles to be and at what cost. Another example. The Global Warming issue is now disproved. Falsified data and corruption on a scale that may never be matched. But here we have the new exhaust standards adding 10,000 to 30,000 dollars per vehicle. For what? For a reason that is now disproved? There is a common sense factor that needs to be thrown in here.
    The Exhausts Sytems are not just for the environment..... Benzine which is a biproduct of combustion in diesel fuel is a well known carcinogen. So this is actually based on "common sense" and effects that we have seen, I'm guessing longer than you've probably been in the Fire Service. Firefighter/Personnel reduction of cancers..... Seems like a great cause to me.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    I'll whine and moan about it and I think I have a point too. Several in fact. It is not practical for volunteer departments to have to keep up with career departments. ........................

    No it is more than fair to bring this issue to the forefront now. Get the egos and goldbraid out of the way and find a balance based on common sense.

    You go and rant farmerfire, this issue is long overdue to be discussed. RESPECTFULLY.
    I can understand your frustration, but on the flip side, myself and many others are tired of hearing how volunteer firefighters want to be seen as "equal" to career firefighters, but whine and complain about meeting any sort of comparable training and operations standards because it's "too much" to ask of volunteers.

    So, how about this idea if you don't want to be held to the same standards.

    If a department doesn't want to be held to any sort of "standard", then......

    1. Any firefighter who does not possess the applicable certifications must wear gear that clearly indicates that they ARE NOT certified for the work that they are doing.

    2. Any department who utilizes uncertified personnel, must clearly label all of their apparatus noting such and post a similar notice in front of their station.

    3. Both should refrain from using the terms "Fire Department" and "Firefighter" to describe themselves in order to avoid confusion with those personnel and organizations that are actually certified to provide fire services.

    Just a thought.

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    Default Lets not mistake what I didn't say

    I never said not anything about not being held to the same standard. I am referring to the out of control regulations flooding the fire service and the volunteers using their free time to catch up to it all. Once its done, they continue to demand it all over again.

    We got into this arguement with NIMS. Warning that NIMS must not become an out of control agency. Once the requirments are set, its done with, No more certifications to be met. Well see what happens.

    We have to use facts and logic to achieve a calculated end here. A logical end. Do you critics of my point have these items in your department. Computer, meeting rooms, seperate bathrooms, exercise rooms, wireless internet, washdown stations, powerpoint displays, sleeping/bunk areas and washers and dryers? How about uniforms and training areas?

    Many of the rural departments work out of a shed or barn or park their apparatus at their homes. They are lucky to have an office at their home or even enough people to respond and they have to stand equal to career departments with resolutions.

    If you came to those type of rural departments and relayed the "You must have" you would first be looked at like your crazy and second destroy the volunteer spririt to run and help where help is needed. The requirements that are being flooded come down to one other common denominator,,,,, Money. Because no matter how you break it down it still comes down to money. They can say the cost is free all they want, but it isn't in the long run. Someone has to pay the expense of getting to the training and all that goes along with it.

    You want the smaller volunteer departments to be on the same level as the career departments. They will, they just can't keep up with this out of control regulations flooding the fire service. Its a ball that keeps getting bigger and many of our fire service leaders are aware of it as well. They know. Since the career departments are also scrambling to stay current, why then should they expect volunteers to do the same?

    HAZ Mat awarness, 36 hours. Give me a break. Do you know how many real hazmat situations I have run across in over 20 years? Three. It was all containted fine.

    So HazMat can come and scream the sky is falling all they want. I have many other regulations and compliancies to concentrate on that have precedent at the moment and were first in line,,,, last week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    I never said not anything about not being held to the same standard.
    Maybe it's me, but this sure sounds like not wanting to be held to the same standard.

    "It is not practical for volunteer departments to have to keep up with career departments."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    I'll whine and moan about it and I think I have a point too. Several in fact. It is not practical for volunteer departments to have to keep up with career departments. For every agency and there is a lot of them, that begins to impose these extra loads, they too should begin to have every employee meet the same loads. In other words, train as well. Take our certifications and when they are compliant, pass them down to us. We're all professionals in one form or another. They are too an it may give a little better understanding of full time job pressures merging with full time fire service demands.

    The problem is not that we aren't refusing to get the training, but there has got to be some common sense here also. Quit throwing in our faces the excuse of our safety, ability to protect others as the reason why we have to meet this requirement this week and another next week. From god how many agencies? It can be compared to our fire apparatus. Just how safe can we get these vehicles to be and at what cost. Another example. The Global Warming issue is now disproved. Falsified data and corruption on a scale that may never be matched. But here we have the new exhaust standards adding 10,000 to 30,000 dollars per vehicle. For what? For a reason that is now disproved? There is a common sense factor that needs to be thrown in here. Every demand on the fire service should now come from one agency only. Let all the other fire agencies within the fire service fight for their place before one ruling agency. Something like that that can give it a mark of approval and a time period to be presented. Right now they are coming out like gum from a gumball machine. THAT isn't right.

    The real reason why these 'extra loads' are being piled on. Its to give the agency that created them a chance to show why they need to exist. Why they should exist.

    Soon it is going to end up where a charge is made because of a lack of compliancy and there will end up being a lawsuit. such as our grants.

    Demand after demand, rule after rule, certification after certification. Soon it will drive away all but the most dedicated volunteers. They have their own certifications to meet and that they get paid to have. Where is the balance of professional (my job) certifications and training vs. volunteer ones? Each side demands theirs. Maybe someone can get out a set of scales and and balance them that way with a limit on each side.

    No it is more than fair to bring this issue to the forefront now. Get the egos and goldbraid out of the way and find a balance based on common sense.

    You go and rant farmerfire, this issue is long overdue to be discussed. RESPECTFULLY.
    Let me clarify a couple of things, which we might find ourselves in agreement on.

    I wholeheartedly believe that ALL firefighters should meet a single national standard for training, be it NFPA 1001 Firefighter I or whatever. That means vollies and career alike. I also believe there needs to be a much greater movement to get these classes to firefighters at an affordable cost to their department.

    I believe the requirement of Haz-Mat: Awareness and Operations is not too much to ask. That's a total of 40 hours, then another 10 per year, give or take.

    I think that it's realistic to expect driver/operators to meet a minimum standard (NFPA 1002, 40 hours +10 or so per year I believe).

    Now, I realize most career departments require EMT or higher, which I do not believe is necessary for a vollie department (perhaps some on an individual level). Nor do I believe it necessary for a vollie department in rural America to have high angle, haz-mat: tech, trench collapse, etc. that a career department might.

    Beyond the basics, a department must figure out what it needs as far as equipment and training based on the risks within their district. From there, the personnel must adhere to any standard set by those risks. We have extrication equipment, so I require my guys to take an extrication course and "refresh" annually. I also expect them to get a minimal amount of medical training (CPR for everyone, and MFR for anyone going on medicals).

    So, I have a minimal expectation of a Firefighter I and II course (Missouri does them together) if they want to fight fire. The course includes Haz-Mat Awareness and Ops. I also expect my drivers to go through training and for everyone to have CPR and vehicle rescue (another 24 hour class). I also expect them to continue their education in these fields. I don't think this is too much to ask.

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    WE do agree on most everything. Make no mistake I'm not ranting at anyone. I am ranting at what is the out of control in the fire service. They cannot keep piling on without realizing that other agencies are doing the same.

    Soon they will regulate so much that the only thing the departments will be doing is trying to stay compliant. That cannot be the only concern in the industry. It will hamper recruitment and retention. I already has.

    Its like the heath food industry and those issues related to increasing personal healthiness,----
    "Pretty soon our hospitals are going to be full of people dying of nothing."

    Think about that.
    Last edited by jam24u; 11-24-2009 at 10:22 PM.

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    Thanks for the support Jam.
    I guess that I am not eat up with the gunho, gotta be at the station every minute of my life type of guy. I have a life outside of the department. It would be interesting to ask the career FF to get his/her training, certification in before they could draw a check. Wonder how many there would be then. Volunteers put their necks on the line for nothing but the satisfaction of helping his/her neighbor, we dont make a living from it. Volunteers go to work for 8 hrs, then go to the dept and train for 3-4 more hrs. When we leave our work and go home we are still on call 24/7, the phrase "I'm off" does not exist in our world. I know we have to train and re-train and then re-train, our citizens deserve the best, but I wonder how long it is going to be before the Gods tell us there will be no more volunteer fire department because of the lack of interest and helpfullness that once was called volunteering?

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    Thanks for the support Jam.
    I guess that I am not eat up with the gunho, gotta be at the station every minute of my life type of guy. I have a life outside of the department. It would be interesting to ask the career FF to get his/her training, certification in before they could draw a check. Wonder how many there would be then. Volunteers put their necks on the line for nothing but the satisfaction of helping his/her neighbor, we dont make a living from it. Volunteers go to work for 8 hrs, then go to the dept and train for 3-4 more hrs. When we leave our work and go home we are still on call 24/7, the phrase "I'm off" does not exist in our world. I know we have to train and re-train and then re-train, our citizens deserve the best, but I wonder how long it is going to be before the Gods tell us there will be no more volunteer fire department because of the lack of interest and helpfullness that once was called volunteering?
    The majority (if not all) of the career departments around me require that you have FF I and II, and most require EMT, before they will hire you. At my department alone, that's 75 that had to pay for their own training before they could draw a check. There's many, many more. Remember, not all career departments have their own academy.

    Please, don't overdramatize the volunteer fire service. The "on call 24/7" looks good in the PR, but we all know that it's volunteer and you don't have to respond if you don't want to. You don't go to work for 8 hours then turn around and go train for 3-4 hours every day after work. There are many, many vollies that pick and choose their calls. If that weren't the case, we'd have 12 guys on medicals, just like we do on fires and wrecks.

    If you're trully that busy and doing that much training, perhaps it's time your department hired some career staff to take the load off the volunteers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    The majority (if not all) of the career departments around me require that you have FF I and II, and most require EMT, before they will hire you. At my department alone, that's 75 that had to pay for their own training before they could draw a check. There's many, many more. Remember, not all career departments have their own academy.

    Please, don't overdramatize the volunteer fire service. The "on call 24/7" looks good in the PR, but we all know that it's volunteer and you don't have to respond if you don't want to. You don't go to work for 8 hours then turn around and go train for 3-4 hours every day after work. There are many, many vollies that pick and choose their calls. If that weren't the case, we'd have 12 guys on medicals, just like we do on fires and wrecks.

    If you're trully that busy and doing that much training, perhaps it's time your department hired some career staff to take the load off the volunteers.
    That's around you, research to see how many paid depts have their own academy or share one regionally at no cost to them to training where they receive compensation. (that means pay)

    I'm not overdramatizing anything. The fact is we do our job and do it professionally without anything in return. We do have 12 and more that respond to medicals. Why wouldn't we run all calls? We have to do all the training so why shouldn't we go on all calls and exercise that training? Our guys respond when the tones go off, regardless of where they are and what they are doing. We dont have to worry about not having adequate members on any incident. I have documentation of this through NFIRS and would be glad to send them to you to prove this point. I didnt say it was a load, you took that out on your own.
    Yeah we should probably look into the SAFER to staff for us because its too much of a load. HA HA!! Gotta go man we have training in a few minutes.

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    A quick question. Do you not respond to all calls? I dont see how anyone can sit around listening to their brothers on the radio, while they are on the couch watching Trauma. Here, we dont pick and choose, atleast not in my dept. And what happens when you know one of your members clearly heard the dispatch, but does not go? I bet you give them the line about "the doors is just as open out as it was in", dont you.

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    And could you please be repectful and take the time to spell out volunteers instead of using that phrase. You know the one I am refering to. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    A quick question. Do you not respond to all calls? I dont see how anyone can sit around listening to their brothers on the radio, while they are on the couch watching Trauma. Here, we dont pick and choose, atleast not in my dept. And what happens when you know one of your members clearly heard the dispatch, but does not go? I bet you give them the line about "the doors is just as open out as it was in", dont you.
    As with almost any (apparently you live in an anomoly) trully vollie department, we do have guys that will pick and choose their calls depending on a number of factors. The biggest factor is who else is responding. If there's three people that are EMT or higher going on a medical, the first responders won't usually mess with responding. There's no use having a ton of personnel on a medical call. We make sure we get our EMT's there, and if a medic's available, one of us makes sure to respond. It's rather coordinated.

    Let me ask you, are you guys paid per call or recieve some kind of stipend at the end of the year, or recieve anything based on responding? If not, I'm betting your department has, or will, run into the same issue. I'm betting there are times a guy is working on a project and hears enough people responding to a medical and says "nah, I'll keep working on this, they've got enough," therefore picking a choosing what they respond on.

    And yes, I'll be the first to admit I let the new guys handle most calls that don't require a medic, and my guys know it. They have no problem with it. We run over 300 calls per year with 15 active personnel and don't have any calls where no one responds. That's a pretty good track record in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    And could you please be repectful and take the time to spell out volunteers instead of using that phrase. You know the one I am refering to. Thanks
    "Vollie"? I tell you what, you get every other vollie on here to quit using that term and I'll do it. Why is it you seem to be the only one that makes an issue of it? You act like I'm some big-city, anti-vollie *****, which is the furthest from the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    As with almost any (apparently you live in an anomoly) trully vollie department, we do have guys that will pick and choose their calls depending on a number of factors. The biggest factor is who else is responding. If there's three people that are EMT or higher going on a medical, the first responders won't usually mess with responding. There's no use having a ton of personnel on a medical call. We make sure we get our EMT's there, and if a medic's available, one of us makes sure to respond. It's rather coordinated.

    Let me ask you, are you guys paid per call or recieve some kind of stipend at the end of the year, or recieve anything based on responding? If not, I'm betting your department has, or will, run into the same issue. I'm betting there are times a guy is working on a project and hears enough people responding to a medical and says "nah, I'll keep working on this, they've got enough," therefore picking a choosing what they respond on.

    And yes, I'll be the first to admit I let the new guys handle most calls that don't require a medic, and my guys know it. They have no problem with it. We run over 300 calls per year with 15 active personnel and don't have any calls where no one responds. That's a pretty good track record in my book.



    "Vollie"? I tell you what, you get every other vollie on here to quit using that term and I'll do it. Why is it you seem to be the only one that makes an issue of it? You act like I'm some big-city, anti-vollie *****, which is the furthest from the truth.
    No pay here pal, not anything. I have heard some getting a tax deduction and free food, etc., that would be nice. The only thing we get is left over food at a fundraiser in which we are there working and preparing the food. When we first started with some of them we had to pay for our food, but the last year or so we have not had to pay. Maybe you consider that a type of reimbursement. We have several EMT-B and the rest are med responders but alot of our houses are along roadside where it takes traffic control, and manpower to assist in carry outs. So we just tell our members to continue on non-emergency because of that particular situation. You may be right on the picking and choosing, but typically they will come on and it they are not needed then they would return to their project.
    As for the volunteer phrase I do prefer that for some reason, I think its out of respect, but I was jerking your chain. Whatever you want to call it I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    No pay here pal, not anything. I have heard some getting a tax deduction and free food, etc., that would be nice. The only thing we get is left over food at a fundraiser in which we are there working and preparing the food. When we first started with some of them we had to pay for our food, but the last year or so we have not had to pay. Maybe you consider that a type of reimbursement. We have several EMT-B and the rest are med responders but alot of our houses are along roadside where it takes traffic control, and manpower to assist in carry outs. So we just tell our members to continue on non-emergency because of that particular situation. You may be right on the picking and choosing, but typically they will come on and it they are not needed then they would return to their project.
    As for the volunteer phrase I do prefer that for some reason, I think its out of respect, but I was jerking your chain. Whatever you want to call it I guess.
    Well, I'm glad you don't have problems (no BS), as it's a rarity this day and age. Especially a department that doesn't give anything in regards to pay for running calls. Maybe you can use SAFER for some things to reward your guys.

    I can also understand needing the guys for traffic control and all. We don't have that issue here. Our guys provide the care until an ambulance arrives, transfers care, then assists as needed. We're one of the few departments that's fortunate enough to be licensed as an ALS provider in our area, which took a lot of hard work getting there.

    Don't take me wrong at all, despite what you may think of me I am very committed as a volunteer and as a chief. I put in hundreds of hours per year doing so. I also put in dozens of hours helping other departments with their training, writing grants, etc. I looked at no less than a dozen grants last year for guys all over the country on my own time, just to help them out. I would bet this year I get more to look at, and have no problem doing so if it's a department that needs the help.

    Don't think I'm some anti-volunteer career guy because I think a certain amount of training isn't too much to ask. I'm all about helping others, I just don't take a lot of excuses and complaining about how it is.

    Particularly with the volunteer fire service, there are those that expect to be treated like the big boys but don't want to play be the same rules. I want my guys to be able to play with the big boys, and they feed on that and want to do so themselves. If they choose not to, that's their perogative, but they will maintain the minimum (FF I and II, Haz-Mat Ops, and extrication), and I don't feel that's too much to ask. If we do like some of them want and move into tech rescue, I will expect those that choose to participate to do the same with that specialty and will lead by example and be the first one there.

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    Now matter how it breaks down you will all have to honestly admit this. 90% of the volunteers time is now mostly devoted to administration. The other is this. FF1 & II and hazmat and NIMS and NFIRS and SFM and EMTA & B and FEMA and DHS and NFPA and Dept. of Health and Health and Human Services and DOT and OSHA and Labor and county and state and local and the list continues to grow and demand more of your time and attention. This is the onslaught I have been referring to. Some come from the same agency, but many more come from another agency source. Each request something and some demand. This on our volunteer time and the demand on that time is growing out of control. Especially for those who have a annual budget of $20,000 to pay for everything and some departments I have seen are below that. Remember a roof and a couple of bay doors. I checked with a labor/civil rights attorney friend of mine in Texas. His magic words were effort and documentation. Frankly he was a little stunned by what is happening in the fire service world, but not surprised. He also said reform is a word being thrown around alot lately, but might be on hyper-drive. He mentioned if you can show documented Efforts to try and keep up, then it would be difficult to 'Hold' anything against you if some issue was contested. Especially if they dealt with the same agency. He threw in some other interesting points related to compliancy as well.

    But if you go back to the begining of all the agencys and certifications I mentioned, it gets to be a little compromising to stand the same lists against the different budgets. Money does make a difference.
    Oh and the above is all on our free time. I'll stop there for awhile.
    Last edited by jam24u; 11-25-2009 at 05:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Well, I'm glad you don't have problems (no BS), as it's a rarity this day and age. Especially a department that doesn't give anything in regards to pay for running calls. Maybe you can use SAFER for some things to reward your guys.

    I can also understand needing the guys for traffic control and all. We don't have that issue here. Our guys provide the care until an ambulance arrives, transfers care, then assists as needed. We're one of the few departments that's fortunate enough to be licensed as an ALS provider in our area, which took a lot of hard work getting there.

    Don't take me wrong at all, despite what you may think of me I am very committed as a volunteer and as a chief. I put in hundreds of hours per year doing so. I also put in dozens of hours helping other departments with their training, writing grants, etc. I looked at no less than a dozen grants last year for guys all over the country on my own time, just to help them out. I would bet this year I get more to look at, and have no problem doing so if it's a department that needs the help.

    Don't think I'm some anti-volunteer career guy because I think a certain amount of training isn't too much to ask. I'm all about helping others, I just don't take a lot of excuses and complaining about how it is.

    Particularly with the volunteer fire service, there are those that expect to be treated like the big boys but don't want to play be the same rules. I want my guys to be able to play with the big boys, and they feed on that and want to do so themselves. If they choose not to, that's their perogative, but they will maintain the minimum (FF I and II, Haz-Mat Ops, and extrication), and I don't feel that's too much to ask. If we do like some of them want and move into tech rescue, I will expect those that choose to participate to do the same with that specialty and will lead by example and be the first one there.
    I have no problem with you Catch, nor do I think you are anti-volunteer. We have the right to voice our opinion whether we agree or disagree. I can see the points that all of us on this thread has expressed. Ops, training, etc is different in each area, but the main objective of volunteering is helping our neighbor and returning home to our families. I honestly think things are similiar in my area and Jams, and possibly yours. No matter if we are career, volunteer, we need to get along and help each other.

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    I realize I am getting a post in after the dust has settled. I have been reading this post for some time and would like to say that I think all three (catch, farmer, and jam) make good points. We are a small rural department covering just over 100 square miles. We run on average 150 runs per year and 75 to 80 % are medical related. The rest are accidents, fires, or public events.
    We have 20 guys that are active and 5 that have some medical certifications.(EMT-B or paramedic) We have every intention of staying current with all requirements and new regulations that come our way, but there are limits. There is not pay here at all as farmer mentioned in his post. We have looked at ways to give our guys some help, but it is not in the budget. Any money we get goes to keeping the equipment going and up to date.
    Like the others I am not whining about things, just stating the facts. It seems there will be a day when a department will not have kept "up" with some regulation and it will cost us the ability to any work. ie lawsuits, inspections, etc.
    There has to be a point where this all levels out or there will only be paid departments to keep up and specialized volunteers. Just my thoughts (and worries) for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    But we are "not professionals",
    *****Speak for yourself, do not speak for me! Myself and all of or guys are professionals, we just aren't paid as well!*****

    I am editing this post but leaving my original post between asterisks. When I first saw this I was outraged that a volunteer would say something like this in a volunteer forum. I think that reading the rest of the posts is that you did not really mean this, as you said you were just ranting. If this is correct I apologize for jumping the gun. If I am wrong please correct me.
    Last edited by Cappy05; 12-02-2009 at 01:31 PM.

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    Lets look at this from another viewpoint.
    I attended a 3 day program put on by the nice folks at DHS and Texas A&M. there were 38 people in the class from military and state employees all the way down to me , the only unpaid professional in the room. Many were career police & fire personnel, most of whom were there on overtime off shift taking the class. Would all these career professional have been there if they were not getting paid to be there???? Maybe or Maybe not!

    Did I gain something from this class ?? yes a nice certificate and some good resource materials along with meeting a lot of "important" folks at the local & state levels. It was something I felt would benefit our small town and possibly our dept. Thats why I did it!
    Not blowing my own horn just raising the point ,that it's easy to say we should all be held to the same standards. Our career neighbors spend a large amount of their time when not on calls doing all the mandatory training's and certifications that are required to meet the standard and even then they have a hard time keeping up with all the new regs flowing down on all of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Lets look at this from another viewpoint.
    I attended a 3 day program put on by the nice folks at DHS and Texas A&M. there were 38 people in the class from military and state employees all the way down to me , the only unpaid professional in the room. Many were career police & fire personnel, most of whom were there on overtime off shift taking the class. Would all these career professional have been there if they were not getting paid to be there???? Maybe or Maybe not!

    Did I gain something from this class ?? yes a nice certificate and some good resource materials along with meeting a lot of "important" folks at the local & state levels. It was something I felt would benefit our small town and possibly our dept. Thats why I did it!
    Not blowing my own horn just raising the point ,that it's easy to say we should all be held to the same standards. Our career neighbors spend a large amount of their time when not on calls doing all the mandatory training's and certifications that are required to meet the standard and even then they have a hard time keeping up with all the new regs flowing down on all of us.
    I had just got back from a 3 dayer similar to the one islandfire03 had without the DHS part. There were also alot of paid ff at the training when I got home and seen the post about the mandated haz-mat training. Thats when I went off. Cappy, its called exaggerating. Many of the career guys around here look down on volunteers and talk down to alot of them, but they dont to me because of my job with the state. I have just as much if not more training than many of the career ffs here. Back up if you think I am talking bad about volunteers, you dont have a clue.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cappy05 View Post
    *****Speak for yourself, do not speak for me! Myself and all of or guys are professionals, we just aren't paid as well!*****

    I am editing this post but leaving my original post between asterisks. When I first saw this I was outraged that a volunteer would say something like this in a volunteer forum. I think that reading the rest of the posts is that you did not really mean this, as you said you were just ranting. If this is correct I apologize for jumping the gun. If I am wrong please correct me.
    Damn, I'm begining to understand now. When I go on a rant (almost never, lol) and decide to edit it before posting or after, you guys all say "C'mon, put it back so we can see how good a rant it was."

    I want to see Cappys. I am, (was) a professional too. The kind that the court brings in as an expert witness. Appointments by governors and more, and in my honest opinion, for small volunteer departments to chase after every certification, code and new guideline on the level as career departments is not only unreasonable, its almost impossible.
    Throw out the argument of career firefighter vs volunteer firefighter as far as mutual respect goes. (That's never going to happen) My point is again that there is no understanding from these agencies about what is practically, achievable. Each agency sends theirs down the line and it ENDS where the departments must scramble to comply.

    Look, what could be done, should be done is this. Every code, certification, resolution, whatever that is normally ending up at the departmental level, to go to a sort of *clearing house. Right now the departments are the clearing house for all these regulations and the ones forced to comply.

    Send everything to one clearing house agency who then prioritizes it and then can pass down and monitor each one. Think about it. The departments could then concentrate all their attention to one agency. Now we are collecting from scores and more and each one of them demands your compliance.

    I want my order of compliance to come from one clearing house agency. One I have to answer to. Let the other agencies fight it out with the clearing house agency about who has precedent. Let them scramble amongst themselves. Right now it all just a pile on without anyone sorting through the pile. Everyday my computer is full of this crap.
    What they are doing gentlemen is telling us their priority is more important than the others and we should take care of theirs first.

    It all ends up on us, is the point. That is how it is arranged now.

    We need some responsible guy/agency in between all of them, and the fire departments and sort this onslaught out.

    Second, Cappy, we LOVE rants here. The slant here is not to take it personal. Discuss it like the politicians do. When its all over carry on like old friends. Right now its all politics anyway. The issue isn't us personally, its what's happening to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    I never said not anything about not being held to the same standard. I am referring to the out of control regulations flooding the fire service and the volunteers using their free time to catch up to it all. Once its done, they continue to demand it all over again.

    We got into this arguement with NIMS. Warning that NIMS must not become an out of control agency. Once the requirments are set, its done with, No more certifications to be met. Well see what happens.

    We have to use facts and logic to achieve a calculated end here. A logical end. Do you critics of my point have these items in your department. Computer, meeting rooms, seperate bathrooms, exercise rooms, wireless internet, washdown stations, powerpoint displays, sleeping/bunk areas and washers and dryers? How about uniforms and training areas?

    Many of the rural departments work out of a shed or barn or park their apparatus at their homes. They are lucky to have an office at their home or even enough people to respond and they have to stand equal to career departments with resolutions.

    If you came to those type of rural departments and relayed the "You must have" you would first be looked at like your crazy and second destroy the volunteer spririt to run and help where help is needed. The requirements that are being flooded come down to one other common denominator,,,,, Money. Because no matter how you break it down it still comes down to money. They can say the cost is free all they want, but it isn't in the long run. Someone has to pay the expense of getting to the training and all that goes along with it.

    You want the smaller volunteer departments to be on the same level as the career departments. They will, they just can't keep up with this out of control regulations flooding the fire service. Its a ball that keeps getting bigger and many of our fire service leaders are aware of it as well. They know. Since the career departments are also scrambling to stay current, why then should they expect volunteers to do the same?

    HAZ Mat awarness, 36 hours. Give me a break. Do you know how many real hazmat situations I have run across in over 20 years? Three. It was all containted fine.

    So HazMat can come and scream the sky is falling all they want. I have many other regulations and compliancies to concentrate on that have precedent at the moment and were first in line,,,, last week.
    First of all NIMS is a tool.Second,train,train,train.Third,WE are all firefighters in the public eye.We must be able to mitigate all hazards,plain and simple.I've been an "unpaid professional" for 30 yrs and I look for different forms of training such as structrual collapse ops(we don't have many earthquakes here),hazmat tech(we have a few runs,like 6 or 7 in 12 yrs).The point is,if you commit yourself to the fire service,then you commit yourself to the fire service.Remember,complacency kills.
    It's not that life is so short,it's cause you're dead for so long.

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