1. #26
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    Post Uhhhh...........

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac73 View Post
    +1 We just took those stupid things off our Engines.

    Not trying to be a smart azz, but you mean that you used to use Hydrant Valves, but stopped doing so?? If So, a lot of these folks would like to know what it was that made you stop using them.

    In our case, they were clumsy (not that there are no clumsy Firemen out there) Heavy, Leaked, etc. But the biggest reason was simply that the Drivers hated the darned things. Almost every one of us could get Water going down the Street Faster without the Valve sitting there in our way. Lots of times the Layout guy on the First Engine would simply toss the valve at the hydrant and yell to the Driver to go. Driver of the Next Engine would have to untangle that mess, then get water started. Life was a lot easier without them. Individual Stations used them, or not, as they saw fit. The County did not purchase them or require their use, so Peer Pressure was all it took to get rid of them.....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    While this may be true where you operate,4 Engines in MY district puts 4800 gallons on the doorstep which hardly leaves me screwed.Depending on location,there may or may not be a hydrant. If NOT,add another 10,000 gallons on the doorstep via wheels. So a lot of "correctness"will depend on locale and established operational procedures. T.C.

    I could have sworn we were talking about urban and suburban firefighting. If you an a hydranted district is silly to only lay one supply line.

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    Odd,I thought we were discussing Humats.We've yet to use one but it has been discussed. My reply to you was based on your observation of only using one hydrant or water source. My comment was to us it doesn't matter for a "normal" structure as we can make a good attack for a sustained period WITHOUT a hydrant,urban,surburban,or rural.Again,like everything we do there is NO one size fits all and different areas will use different approaches to get to the same result.No harm,no foul just another outlook(or way of doing business). T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDGloWorm View Post
    Hey guys, I'm putting the feelers out there for feedback. My department is integrating a "Humat" valve (four-way type device) into our fire-ground ops. We use 5" supply hose on everything. The reason; we've had a few fires, where it was a long lay, but nobody boosted pressure from a low hydrant resulting in low pressure. So now, this device will be on every 5" hose in the city and hooked up at every fire.

    The proposal is the first due will lay in dry (or leave a man at the plug, depending on staffing), with the second making the connection and boosting through the appliance (after device is connected to hydrant, there are two connections left to be made, one goes into your engine and the other from the engine back to the device, then you switch the lever on the top to divert the flow of water).

    Right now, first due engine doesn't establish their own water supply unless it's a hand lay situation. They go straight to a "fast attack", attempting a knockdown on tank water and the 2nd due lays a line.

    I'm not saying our current procedures are right or wrong, just saying that this is the way things have gone for decades. Now, times are changing.

    For those departments out there that use these devices (or concept), what's been your experiences with them? Also, just in general, who lays a line? 1st due, 2nd due. 3rd due? Do they lay it dry, or leave someone at the plug to turn it in?

    Thanks!
    If you are going to use a Humat valve, then the only real logical way to do so is the first engine lay out from the hydrant with its valve and have a man hook up and charge their own supply line. As was earlier stated, their most useful purpose is to boost the pressure of an already flowing supply line. If you don't plan to charge the line til the second (or later) engine gets there, then there really is no point to having them.

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    From a neighboring department's website. Basically using the Humat as a siamese. Not sure what the benefit is over using a siamese other than the fact that it is already attached for use in hydranted areas.

    http://www.mvfd.com/content/water/humat.cfm

  6. #31
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    Talking Hmmmm...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    From a neighboring department's website. Basically using the Humat as a siamese. Not sure what the benefit is over using a siamese other than the fact that it is already attached for use in hydranted areas.

    http://www.mvfd.com/content/water/humat.cfm


    Lotta miles between those "Neighboring" Companies, some across the State's second Largest river.........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Lotta miles between those "Neighboring" Companies, some across the State's second Largest river.........
    As distances go, they're closer than most of the people on here...but if we see them on a fire, it's a big one.

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    If you are going to use a Humat valve, then the only real logical way to do so is the first engine lay out from the hydrant with its valve and have a man hook up and charge their own supply line. As was earlier stated, their most useful purpose is to boost the pressure of an already flowing supply line. If you don't plan to charge the line til the second (or later) engine gets there, then there really is no point to having them.

    I agree, for the most part. That is how my past department used for as we had a hydrant system which overall provided a respectable quantity of water but it did it at fairly low pressures. To really maximize the system over lays of more than a couple hundred of feet, an engine was required to pump the hydrant. But due to the size of our district, that second due engine could easily be 5-8 minutes behind the first due, and we felt that was too long for the first due to be without a operating supply line. So when we acquired 4", we started using 4-Way valves.

    However, I do disagree with the last sentence. One benefit of the 4-way valve that if your supply engine develops a problem or breaks down, you can simply move the valve back to flow-through and the water supply can be maintained until another engine can be moved in. That is why we required it be used on all hydrant pumping operations.

    In addition, it double as a very effective tool for relay operations.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-27-2009 at 06:44 PM.

  9. #34
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    Talking Uh Huh.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    As distances go, they're closer than most of the people on here...but if we see them on a fire, it's a big one.

    Kinda like the Brush Fire at Barstow a coupla years back...... Cobb Island (Charles 6) was supplying water to Forestville (PG 23) and Ridge (St Marys 4)......... Of course we could have pumped the Patuxent dry that day and still had Fire left over.....

    I brought the Dozer over from Cedarville, and hooked up with Rick Long to try to get a line in to help protect the Corrections Facility...... Quite a Day, and the only time I ever saw Rick look really whipped by the time we were done.....
    Last edited by hwoods; 11-27-2009 at 11:02 PM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I agree, for the most part. That is how my past department used for as we had a hydrant system which overall provided a respectable quantity of water but it did it at fairly low pressures. To really maximize the system over lays of more than a couple hundred of feet, an engine was required to pump the hydrant. But due to the size of our district, that second due engine could easily be 5-8 minutes behind the first due, and we felt that was too long for the first due to be without a operating supply line. So when we acquired 4", we started using 4-Way valves.

    However, I do disagree with the last sentence. One benefit of the 4-way valve that if your supply engine develops a problem or breaks down, you can simply move the valve back to flow-through and the water supply can be maintained until another engine can be moved in. That is why we required it be used on all hydrant pumping operations.

    In addition, it double as a very effective tool for relay operations.
    I'll give you the failsafe option.

    I'll also give you the relay option, however, the added versatility of the relay valve inline comes with a price tag of flow restriction. Like anything it has its pro's and cons.

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    We used to forwar lay from the supply Engine and then if need be, we woulfd assign an incoming engine to pump the Humat. pretty straight forward, I guess the powers that be saw that we almost never used them so they pulled them and now the optimal would be to reverse out and use the Engine itself as a big $400,000 dollar humat.
    Last edited by JMac73; 11-28-2009 at 06:03 PM.

  12. #37
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    Question Huh??............

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac73 View Post
    We used to forwar lay from the supply Engine and then if need be, we woulfd assign an incoming engine to pump the Humat. pretty straight forward, I guess the powers that be saw that we almost never used them so they pulled tham and now the optimal would be to reverse out and use the Engine itself as a big $400,000 dollar humat.

    Is your department so small or short on equipment that you can't have Engines in front of the Fire Building AND Engines on the Hydrants as well??.........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Somedays, yup! Most of the time we have plenty of "iron"but everyonce in a while.................it gets interesting. T.C.

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    I wouldnt exactly call uis small www.ocfrd.com

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    My previous departments problem wasn't that we didn't have sufficient engines responding, but it was the issue of how close they were to the first due.

    Typical day response would see 3 engines from our department plus 1 assigned AMA, each responding from a separate station about 5-8 minutes apart.

    Night response would see 5 from our department, but only 1 of those stations had multiple engines, so the other 2 would still be waiting 5-8 minutes for second due engine. We would still get 1 engine AMA included in that 6 for reported fires.

    First due could lay in and make it's own connections, but without the 4-way, they would be committed to running off the generally low pressures of that hydrant for the duration of the operation witrhout the 4-way valve unless they wanted to risk running off tank water only until the arrival of the 2nd due engine.

    There was always the option of the second or third due laying to another hydrant, and then pumping it, but that was time consuming and would put a second line on the ground.

    We decided that for our operation, the 4-way would provide both an initial supply line with the option of adding a pumper to the hydrant boosting the flow to the line already on the ground. It worked very well for us and I beleive that they are still using the same system today.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-29-2009 at 07:05 AM.

  16. #41
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    Default Ok.............

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac73 View Post
    I wouldnt exactly call uis small www.ocfrd.com

    You're almost as big as us, keep at it..........

    Look at post #4 in the Thread "Response Levels for Fires" for our Stats.


    Seriously, I didn't get that you were from OCFR until now......
    Last edited by hwoods; 11-29-2009 at 10:43 AM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

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