1. #1
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    Default Levels of response for fires

    To compare apples to apples, for the paid city guys out there (we're looking at revamping our "run cards"), how many of each do you send to a fire? We are currently sending 3 engines, 1 ladder, 1 rescue and a battalion on all fires (everything from run of the mill garden apartments, to single family dwellings). Once declared a working fire, you get an extra engine, air unit, division chief and the full time investigator.

    Our hi-rise fires are different, with 5 engines, 2 ladders, 1 rescue, 1 battalion and 1 division chief. Any working fire in a hi-rise is an automatic second alarm.

    What do you guys send? And, what's the run down of assignments? Here, 1st due is attack, 2nd due is water supply and second line, 3rd is RIT, then you have your ladder and rescue which perform truck work.

    The extra engine on the "working fire" is dedicated to safety. The OIC of that engine becomes the "safety officer", the driver becomes an aide/accountability, and the rest of the crew assists the safety officer with mostly tasks like scene safety.

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    We send what you do for a reported working fire. A second alarm will bring the reserve engines staffed by recalled personnel and mutual aid companies.

    Our standard response to an AFA is one Engine, Ladder and Rescue.

    An alarm from one of the target hazards gets a response of 2 Engines, Ladder, Rescue and the Deputy.

    Medicals get the Engine company in the district that the medical came from and EMS response from our 911 EMS transport service.

    MVC's get the Engine in the district, the Rescue and EMS response from our 911 EMS transport service. If the incident is on the highway, the Deputy also responds.
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    A fire during the day tomorrow (my next shift day) will get two engines with two firefighters each. Our two daytime chiefs are likely to respond. We'll page for our volunteers and approximately three of 19 will show up (we'd probably get more if it were at night). If we arrive and find it is a working fire, we'll request mutual aid and get a three-person engine company from an neighboring department.

    We've asked city hall for an additional three firefighters so that our minimum staffing can be 3+2 but the word is that funding won't be approved due to the current economic climate. Our goal is for 3+3 minimum staffing. I can't imagine the miracles we'd be able to work with six guys showing up.

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    Thumbs up And............

    Outside Fire - Dumpster, Auto, Mulch, etc. - One Engine.
    AFA's - One Engine.
    OUTSIDE Gas Leak - One Engine.
    Medical - ALS and/or BLS Ambulance(s) depending on type of call, Engine or Squad may be dispatched if Closer than EMS Units.
    Auto Accidents - Engine, BLS Ambulance, Squad if on Highway of 35 mph or Greater.

    Inside Gas Leak, Odor of Smoke, Nothing Visible - 2 Engines, Truck or Squad, Chief

    Box Alarm - Any Structure Fire - 4 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Squad, Chiefs

    Working Fire - Add a Medic Unit a BLS Ambulance, Safety Officer, EMS Officer, and if only 1 Chief is on the Box, add a second one.


    Staffing - 3 or 4 on an Engine, 4 on Trucks and Squads. Ambulances sometimes are on the air and go with their Engine for additional Staffing if needed. With Volunteers, we usually have around 35 people on a Box Alarm.

    Additional Alarms get what was on the First. 5 Alarms on a Box gets 20 Engines, 10 Trucks, 5 Squads, 175 people, give or take a couple.

    Department Stats:
    48 Stations - 3 Fully Paid, 6 Fully Volunteer, 39 Combination Paid/Volunteer (3 are Marine Stations only)
    Apparatus - 86 Engines, 22 Trucks, 11 Heavy Rescues, 4 Rescue Engines, 2 Quints, 4 Tankers, 8 Brush Trucks, 2 Water Supply Trucks (LDH, 2,000GPM Pumps) 53 BLS Ambulances, 16 ALS Ambulances, 8 Boats, Additional Support Vehicles for Hazmat, Bomb Squad, Tech Rescue, EMS Ops, Etc...... (A "Squad" is a Heavy Rescue OR a "Rescue Engine" if the RE is Closer, REs Carry full Heavy Rescue Equipment)
    Personnel - 690 Career, 1,200 Operational Volunteers, 800 Support Volunters.
    Area - 430 Square Miles
    Population 875,000
    Incidents Last Year - 136,000
    Last edited by hwoods; 11-24-2009 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Add some Info...........
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    Standard "house fire" or area box assignment is 4 engines, 2 special services (truck or heavy rescue), ambulance and 1 or 2 tankers depending on the location and hydrant availability.

    local boxes (car fires, brush fires etc) get 1 engine.

    fire alarms generally get 2 engines and a special service.

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    Default what we send

    EMS run= 1 ALS engine or BLS truck (if engine in that still district is on another run), 1 medic unit

    Elavator rescue, lockout= 1 truck

    Level 1 crash= 1 engine or 1 truck, 1 medic unit

    Level 2 crash (pin/rollover)= 1 engine, 1 truck, squad, medic unit, BC buggy

    Tech rescues= engine, 2 trucks, squad, 2 medic units, BC buggy, along with specialized trailers and the like.

    Rubbish, dumpter fires= 1 engine

    Car fires= 1 engine, 1 truck

    Car fires on the expressway= 1 engine, 1 truck, BC buggy

    AFA= 1 engine, 1 truck, BC buggy

    Reported structure fire= 2 engines, 1 truck, BC buggy

    Confired structure fire(Full Still)= add 1 engines, 1 truck, sqaud, 2 medic units for a total of (3 engines, 2 truck, squad, 2 medic units BC buggy)

    Box Alarm= add 1 engine, 1 truck, air rehab unit, deputy chief for a total of (4 engines,3 trucks, squad, 2 medic units, BC buggy, deputy, and air rehab)

    2nd alarm= 3 engines, 1 truck, 1 medic unit for a total of (7 engines, 4 trucks, squad, 3 medic units, BC buggy, deputy, and air rehab)

    3rd alarm= 2 engines for a total of (9 engines, 4 trucks, squad, 3 medic units, BC buggy, deputy, and air rehab)

    4th alarm= 2 engines for a total of (11 engines, 4 trucks, squad, 3 medic units, BC buggy, deputy, and air rehab)

    anything past a 4th alarm IC will speical call what ever is needed.

    Hope this helps
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    City one responds with a chiefs vehicle
    2 Engines with 2 fire fighters each
    1 Rescue with 2 fire fighters
    1 Ladder if off duty personnel are called in

    City two responds with 1 Chiefs vehicle
    1 Engine with 2 fire fighters
    1 Rescue with 2 fire fighters
    1 Ladder if off duty personnel are called in

    If the duty crew is not sufficient they will call in off duty people and mutual aid form the volunteer departments. Those are the paid guys

    In our department we send three pumper tankers until someone gets on scene and turns around unneeded resources. If additional resources are needed we call in mutual aid. The number of fire fighters to show for any given call depends on the time of day and the day of the week.
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 11-24-2009 at 05:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Blah, blah, blah....
    Maybe you missed this part, genius...

    To compare apples to apples, for the paid city guys out there...

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    May want to add size of your dept. For my dept, we have seven stations. about 35 guys on duty during shift. We have 7 pumpers, 2 ladders, 1 rescue , 1 hazmat. Now for a call of a house fire , dispatch will send 2 engines, 1 ladder, 1 rescue , 1 hazmat, and Deputy chief.

    Automatic alarm to save on fuel we cut down from above to just 1 pumper running hot and 1 pumper code 1. We only have a few tall building here. If we have a big fire then the other ladder and 1 more engine will respond. We have 3 men on the pumpers and 3 on ladders. 2 on rescue and 2 on hazmat. Used to be just 2 pumpers a ladder and 1 rescue.

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    Haz-Mat truck on a house fire? That's a new one on me!

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    Post Well.............

    Quote Originally Posted by FireRescue61 View Post
    Haz-Mat truck on a house fire? That's a new one on me!
    I guess because that's two more people on the Fireground..........

    Most Jurisdictions probably can't justify Staffing a Haz Mat Unit for Haz Mat Calls only. Even here where I'm at, our Haz Mat Crew Cross Staffs an Engine.....
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    Hazmat truck for man power plus it helps run up the run numbers when homeland security looks at the runs made scence they bught it for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog159 View Post
    Hazmat truck for man power plus it helps run up the run numbers when homeland security looks at the runs made scence they bught it for us.
    numbers padding great.


    tie up a specialty rig at a house fire, doesnt seem smart

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    numbers padding great.


    tie up a specialty rig at a house fire, doesnt seem smart
    Hey, I'm all for it if it means extra grant monies or budget for the Haz-Mat. Besides you never know what somebody has burning at their residence, real easy to justify that rig being there IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Hey, I'm all for it if it means extra grant monies or budget for the Haz-Mat. Besides you never know what somebody has burning at their residence, real easy to justify that rig being there IMO.
    thats all well and good until you realize you are f*cking your brothers else where who need that grant money for legitimate hazmat responses but are getting glossed over because they don't have enough runs because they aren't cooking the books.

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    We will have it with or without the runs because we are responsible for 17 counties. No one is getting screwed over because we ADD run numbers. You can not tell me that a house fire does not have hazards. It also helps with the 2 in 2 out rule. More man power the safer the firefighters are. One reasone for FF having heart attacks is being over worked because of manpower. So don't tell me we are screwing anybody over because we use a firefighter to fight a fire. We are the 3rd largest city in Oklahoma and every county is covered with a hazmat trailer with a Hazmat truck to back them up when needed.

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    Thumbs up Agreed!...........

    Quote Originally Posted by firedog159 View Post
    We will have it with or without the runs because we are responsible for 17 counties. No one is getting screwed over because we ADD run numbers. You can not tell me that a house fire does not have hazards. It also helps with the 2 in 2 out rule. More man power the safer the firefighters are. One reasone for FF having heart attacks is being over worked because of manpower. So don't tell me we are screwing anybody over because we use a firefighter to fight a fire. We are the 3rd largest city in Oklahoma and every county is covered with a hazmat trailer with a Hazmat truck to back them up when needed.

    Absolutely Nothing Wrong with that. As I noted above, we are a large Jurisdiction here, but our Haz Mat Crews also run Engine Companies as well. Even with our call volume, we can't justify having people sit in a Station idle while a Job is in progress in that area. There is also a morale Factor as well, since a large majority of our folks are still "Gung Ho" (Sharkie understands that term) about going to Fires..........

    Speaking about Grants, You can see the Washington Monument from one of the Haz Mat Stations, so that means we're close to the DC Line.... We border Washington DC on 2 sides, and we have an active Mutual Aid System in this area. So the Grant Money will be there, regardless.....
    Last edited by hwoods; 11-25-2009 at 08:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog159 View Post
    We will have it with or without the runs because we are responsible for 17 counties. No one is getting screwed over because we ADD run numbers. You can not tell me that a house fire does not have hazards. It also helps with the 2 in 2 out rule. More man power the safer the firefighters are. One reasone for FF having heart attacks is being over worked because of manpower. So don't tell me we are screwing anybody over because we use a firefighter to fight a fire. We are the 3rd largest city in Oklahoma and every county is covered with a hazmat trailer with a Hazmat truck to back them up when needed.

    If your responsible for so large of an area then why the number padding? Who said a house fire doesn't have hazards? I'm just going of your own statement of sending the hazmat for manpower and to pad stats. Doesn't sound like you are using them for hazmat functions.

    I'm not sure why your bragging about being 3rd largest in Oklahoma, that puts you at what like 220th for the entire country?
    Last edited by nameless; 11-25-2009 at 03:28 PM.

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    Why not cross-staff the Hazmat unit and use those 2 bodies to bump the Ladder staffing up to 4? That would be a better use of those 2 positions, imo.

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    We are not screwing anybody out of grant money. It was given to our dept. by Homeland Secureity because of the size of our city and the location in the state. The hazmat truck is also used as the rescue truck on half the city. Not bragging about being the 3rd largest city in oklahoma, just stating a fact. That is one reason we have the hazmat truck and TRT trailer because of our location and so the hazmat truck does not just sit and never make a run. If we pull the guys off of the hazmat truck then we don't have anyone to man the hazmat truck when it is needed. As I said before, we cover 17 counties with the hazmat truck. Not padding the numbers. Just showing that we do use the truck and not just sit in the station. No need to send so many pumpers on a house fire other than for the man power so what is the big deal using a hazmat truck. Not that many hazmat calls.
    Last edited by firedog159; 11-25-2009 at 04:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Maybe you missed this part, genius...


    And apparently you missed the part about the TWO PAID DEPARTMENTS!! What a maroon!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Maybe you missed this part, genius...


    And apparently you missed the part about the TWO PAID DEPARTMENTS!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by FireRescue61 View Post
    Haz-Mat truck on a house fire? That's a new one on me!
    Makes perfect sense. There are a lot of toxins in the average house fire. Besides you never know what you will find

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    so you are sending the hazmat truck to fires to show you use it, but you allegedly don't need to because you cover 17 counties. So what is it do you use the truck or do you need the house fires to boost the numbers? If you bought the truck with grant monies and can't afford to buy one yourself why the unnecessary wear and tear by sending it to fires? If the truck is at a fire the crew is committed and the truck is sitting idle. So you don't have guys to staff it during fires whether you cross staff it from an engine or not.

    you're really jumping back and forth here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    thats all well and good until you realize you are f*cking your brothers else where who need that grant money for legitimate hazmat responses but are getting glossed over because they don't have enough runs because they aren't cooking the books.
    HEY!!! There is an endless supply of money and funds. You know that. Heck that is why we can't cut the cost of running the fire department. [/SARCASM]

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