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    Default hydrant question

    I remember reading somewhere what percent of available water you can get from the steamer connection on a hydrant vs how much you can get if you hook the steamer and a side nipple. If anyone can point me toward a resource I would appreciate it.

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    Ronnie, you trying to shoot down my proposal????? C'mon bro, it's justified to get the added BS out of the bag. If it's that big, you need to grab a plug from another main anyway.

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    No Jeffey, not trying to beat you down, I just want to be informed.

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    Default Estimating flow from hydrants:

    I believe that you might be confusing the method of estimating available flow from hydrants with additional water from a second line to the hydrant.

    Lets say you make a hook-up to the hydrant and note a static pressure of 80 psi before starting water from the hydrant. Then after deploying two 1 ¾” lines at 150 gpm each, you find that the hydrant has dropped to 60 psi. You might want to tell the I.C. that you have enough water for two more 1 ¾” lines before you run out of pressure. The rule of thumb that you are trying to remember goes something like this:

    5% or less drop from static = 3 additional times current flow.
    10% or less drop from static = 2 additional times current flow
    25% or less drop from static = 1 additional times current flow

    Using the above 80 psi static example and the same two initial 1 ¾” lines… Then if pressure dropped 4 psi you could expect to apply another 900 gpm or a total of 1200 gpm before the hydrant went flat.
    A drop of 8 psi or less would indicate an additional water volume of 600 gpm or a total of 900 gpm.
    If the residual had dropped to 50 psi with the original 2 lines operating, you could expect to get some additional water, but not enough to supply another two 1 ¾” lines.

    If you are working with dual 3” lines with 2 ½” couplings, each 25’ long from the hydrant to the intake of the engine, at 1,000 gpm each the friction loss would be about 25 psi. On a hydrant capable of 2,000 gpm at a residual pressure of 25 psi, you could safely take the intake on the engine to zero (0 psi) without endangering the water system since the hydrant would still be at 25 psi. The problem with training operators to do this is “Not All Hydrants can Supply This Volume” and taking the intake pressure to zero on a poor main would surely result in collapsed hot water tanks and the drawing in of ground water through the bell and spigot connections of the water system.

    I believe that this discussion might stem from another thread about replacing 5” soft sleeves with 4” hook-ups. A good hydrant, able to supply 1500 gpm at a residual pressure of 30 psi, will have an incoming engine pressure of 16 psi (14 psi loss in the hose). A properly trained pump operator would not take his compound down this far, but instead stop at 20 psi, thus not reaching 1500 gpm from the hydrant. If you patch in a piece of 3” say 25’ long, then the 4” would flow 1,000 gpm with a loss of 6 psi in the 25 feet, while the 3” line would also have a loss of 6 psi at a flow of 500 gpm. Total flow would then be 1500 gpm with a compound reading of 24 psi.

    If you had used the 5” sleeve to hook up, you would be moving 1500 gpm with a compound reading of 26 psi.

    Not sure if this adds to the discussion, but the real world results greatly depend upon the mains and distances from the reservoirs and pump stations.

    Kuh Shise

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    deleted.....
    Last edited by LFD2203; 11-27-2009 at 01:27 PM.

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    I have another question. What will the difference in flow be if I hook a 6" line to the steamer vs the side nipple. Assume that the main is of sufficient size to supply enough water for a fully opened hydrant with the steamer valve open to air. My initial thought is that the flow will be nearly identical. Water is an incomprehensible liquid (at least as far as this discussion is concerned). The side nipple acts like a venturi. That is, where the diameter shrinks down the pressure will increase and the velocity of the fluid will increase. The flow rate will be the same throughout the system. There will be a loss through the reduction as this in fact represents a higher resistance. However, since this resistance is over a short distance is it negligible?

    Another question mysteriously popped into my head as well. What kind of construction is the valve that connects to the main? Is it a gate valve or a seat type valve or some other type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post
    I believe that you might be confusing the method of estimating available flow from hydrants with additional water from a second line to the hydrant.

    Lets say you make a hook-up to the hydrant and note a static pressure of 80 psi before starting water from the hydrant. Then after deploying two 1 ¾” lines at 150 gpm each, you find that the hydrant has dropped to 60 psi. You might want to tell the I.C. that you have enough water for two more 1 ¾” lines before you run out of pressure. The rule of thumb that you are trying to remember goes something like this:

    5% or less drop from static = 3 additional times current flow.
    10% or less drop from static = 2 additional times current flow
    25% or less drop from static = 1 additional times current flow

    Using the above 80 psi static example and the same two initial 1 ¾” lines… Then if pressure dropped 4 psi you could expect to apply another 900 gpm or a total of 1200 gpm before the hydrant went flat.
    A drop of 8 psi or less would indicate an additional water volume of 600 gpm or a total of 900 gpm.
    If the residual had dropped to 50 psi with the original 2 lines operating, you could expect to get some additional water, but not enough to supply another two 1 ¾” lines.

    If you are working with dual 3” lines with 2 ½” couplings, each 25’ long from the hydrant to the intake of the engine, at 1,000 gpm each the friction loss would be about 25 psi. On a hydrant capable of 2,000 gpm at a residual pressure of 25 psi, you could safely take the intake on the engine to zero (0 psi) without endangering the water system since the hydrant would still be at 25 psi. The problem with training operators to do this is “Not All Hydrants can Supply This Volume” and taking the intake pressure to zero on a poor main would surely result in collapsed hot water tanks and the drawing in of ground water through the bell and spigot connections of the water system.

    I believe that this discussion might stem from another thread about replacing 5” soft sleeves with 4” hook-ups. A good hydrant, able to supply 1500 gpm at a residual pressure of 30 psi, will have an incoming engine pressure of 16 psi (14 psi loss in the hose). A properly trained pump operator would not take his compound down this far, but instead stop at 20 psi, thus not reaching 1500 gpm from the hydrant. If you patch in a piece of 3” say 25’ long, then the 4” would flow 1,000 gpm with a loss of 6 psi in the 25 feet, while the 3” line would also have a loss of 6 psi at a flow of 500 gpm. Total flow would then be 1500 gpm with a compound reading of 24 psi.

    If you had used the 5” sleeve to hook up, you would be moving 1500 gpm with a compound reading of 26 psi.

    Not sure if this adds to the discussion, but the real world results greatly depend upon the mains and distances from the reservoirs and pump stations.

    Kuh Shise


    What you are saying is correct. But a drop of 20 pounds flowing 300 gpm would be a 25% drop and maybe the hydrant would be able to deliver an additional 300 gpms. A drop of this much on a main that shows 80 PSI may be a bad main. It shouldn't have dropped over 5 PSI flowing the 300 gpms. I would be careful taking anything more than another flow of 300 gpm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have another question. What will the difference in flow be if I hook a 6" line to the steamer vs the side nipple. Assume that the main is of sufficient size to supply enough water for a fully opened hydrant with the steamer valve open to air. My initial thought is that the flow will be nearly identical. Water is an incomprehensible liquid (like most of your posts! ). The side nipple acts like a venturi. That is, where the diameter shrinks down the pressure will increase and the velocity of the fluid will increase. The flow rate will be the same throughout the system. There will be a loss through the reduction as this in fact represents a higher resistance. However, since this resistance is over a short distance is it negligible?

    Another question mysteriously popped into my head as well. What kind of construction is the valve that connects to the main? Is it a gate valve or a seat type valve or some other type.
    What's the matter.. Wiki down?

    PS: Water cannot be compressed... it is incompressable. Your posts and rants, however are incomprehensible.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 11-27-2009 at 05:14 PM.
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    There is no one simple answer. As previously stated it depends on the hydrants flow capability. Generally you will get more water from a second connection to a hydrant.

    If I'm reading between the lines correctly, you two guys are debating removing items from hydrant buckets. A good hydrant bucket has at least one gate valve for a side discharge on the hydrant with an adapter to supply LDH (if you use LDH). This allows the driver the choice of hooking a second supply line to his additional intake or allows another engine to share a hydrant. It would be silly and inefficient to lay more lines when "out of water" simply because you didnt tap into more than one outlet on the hydrant to utilize its maximum capability.

    Some simple rules for getting the most out of any hydrant:
    -Use the largest diameter and shortest length hose to the intakes
    -Hook directly to main pump intakes (steamers)
    -Gate smaller/side ports for use after first line is charged
    -Attach adapters to smaller hydrant ports to utilize LDH if you have it at your disposal
    -Attach more than one line to a hydrant to get its maximum flow

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    What's the matter.. Wiki down?

    PS: Water cannot be compressed... it is incompressable. Your posts and rants, however are incomprehensible.
    I can laugh at that as well... seems I got a bit hasty with the spell checker. Oh well. You were at least smart enough to figure out that in the fire department world we consider water to be incompressible.
    Now please answer the question

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I can laugh at that as well... seems I got a bit hasty with the spell checker. Oh well. You were at least smart enough to figure out that in the fire department world we consider water to be incompressible.
    Now please answer the question
    At least smart enough?
    Last edited by DFDMAXX; 11-27-2009 at 11:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    What's the matter.. Wiki down?

    PS: Water cannot be compressed... it is incompressable. Your posts and rants, however are incomprehensible.
    I'm pretty sure the whole concept of using water to fight fires in incomprehensible to Scarredblow.

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    Post Hmmm..........

    I guess I've led a sheltered life all these years....... Engine pulls up to a Hydrant, drops Single or Dual lines, stretches down the street to the Fire. The next Engine arrives, Connects a Soft Sleeve (Anywhere from 4.5 to 6 inches Diameter, but always with a 4.5 female NST Thread to the Hydrant) and hooks up the supply lines and pumps to the First Engine....... That's all there is to it. Period. We NEVER (Yeah, I said Never, and that's absolutely True) Put extra lines on the Hydrant, use Hydrant valves, Flow water directly from the Hydrant to the attack Engine, Yada, Yada, Yada. None, Zero, etc. There is simply no need for all the fancy extras in Water Supply here. The Key to success?? Two things: First - We always (Yeah, Always) hook a Supply Pumper to the Hydrant, we DO NOT let a Hydrant Flow Water unless we're controlling it with a $350,000.00 Self Contained Mobile Hydrant Valve Assembly..... Second - Our Hydrants always have Water left over, no matter how much we're pulling out of it. Our Smallest Mains are 8 inches, and the Lowest Pressure that I've ever encountered in my district was around 80 psi Static, falling to 70 at 250 gpm.... A Hydrant that we use for Training (Due to it's Location) starts out with 125 psi and drops all the way to 110 when flowing 1,000 gpm. The Main size at that point is 16 inches........


    Jay - Should you happen to be Lurking and read this thread....... Your Hydrant is in the Mail, watch for a 300 pound package in a plain brown wrapper........
    Last edited by hwoods; 11-28-2009 at 08:35 AM.
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    Jay - Should you happen to be Lurking and read this thread....... Your Hydrant is in the Mail, watch for a 300 pound package in a plain brown wrapper........
    What color is the hydrant?
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    Question ????............

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    What color is the hydrant?


    White Barrel with a Green Top and Green Caps............




    Braincramp just hit........ Color Coding??..... No we don't Color Code them, All of them are alike.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    White Barrel with a Green Top and Green Caps............
    Braincramp just hit........ Color Coding??..... No we don't Color Code them, All of them are alike.......
    I figured it would be Glenn Dale yellow with black caps and top!
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    Thumbs up Well...............

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have another question. What kind of construction is the valve that connects to the main? Is it a gate valve or a seat type valve or some other type.


    Honest Question gets an honest answer: YES......


    Actually, Both types of Valves can be found on Hydrants... Since we are subject to freezing here, our Hydrants have a "Seat Type" Valve on the BOTTOM of the Hydrant Barrel, at the level of the Water Main, which has to be at least 48 inches below the surface of the ground.......

    When the Hydrant is installed, the Contractor digs out a few Cubic Yards of Dirt Below the level of the Water Main, where the Hydrant will sit. This area is filled with Small gravel to allow Water to filter through it. The bottom of the Hydrant Barrel has some Drain Holes in it, arranged so that when the Valve is Closed, any water in the Hydrant will drain out thru the bottom to prevent freezing. When the Hydrant is open, the Valve is in a position to keep the Drain Holes closed, so all water goes out thru the Hydrant connections.

    Areas that are not subject to Freezing temps may, or may not, use Hydrants that have Valves on the individual connections. These are often referred to as "Wet Barrel" Hydrants, or they are sometimes called "California Hydrants"......... Any West Coast guys know about these Hydrants?? Bou??.......

    Hope this is not too Incomprehensible..........
    Last edited by hwoods; 11-28-2009 at 12:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I guess I've led a sheltered life all these years.......
    Sheltered?? Hardly, grounded sounds more like it. There's nothing wrong with that if it works for you.
    I have and will continue to place a camcone over the 2 1/2" for the reason that I like the extra water to be able to supply whatever they throw on the other end. I can also use that to fill equipment that is not directly tied into a hydrant if the operation is in an area wher they are needed without having to adjust pressures at the panel.
    IAFF

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    We too require a second port be gated on each hydrant for the excess water when available. But the most often used reason is to disconnect the engine from the hydrant when the internal rod/nut breaks. It's much easier to clamp off the pony roll when you have another outlet open. In fact, I've yet to see anyone completely close an LDH gate on a charged line without an outlet. In our area the water company can be 1/2 to 1 hr. out and finding the hydrant shut-off valve is ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Honest Question gets an honest answer: YES......


    Actually, Both types of Valves can be found on Hydrants... Since we are subject to freezing here, our Hydrants have a "Seat Type" Valve on the BOTTOM of the Hydrant Barrel, at the level of the Water Main, which has to be at least 48 inches below the surface of the ground.......

    When the Hydrant is installed, the Contractor digs out a few Cubic Yards of Dirt Below the level of the Water Main, where the Hydrant will sit. This area is filled with Small gravel to allow Water to filter through it. The bottom of the Hydrant Barrel has some Drain Holes in it, arranged so that when the Valve is Closed, any water in the Hydrant will drain out thru the bottom to prevent freezing. When the Hydrant is open, the Valve is in a position to keep the Drain Holes closed, so all water goes out thru the Hydrant connections.

    Areas that are not subject to Freezing temps may, or may not, use Hydrants that have Valves on the individual connections. These are often referred to as "Wet Barrel" Hydrants, or they are sometimes called "California Hydrants"......... Any West Coast guys know about these Hydrants?? Bou??.......

    Hope this is not too Incomprehensible..........
    Yes, I know our hydrants have a self draining feature well below the frost line and that they have a bunch of #2 stone around them. I just wasn't sure about the actual construction of the valve itself. Gate valves by their very nature get a higher flow rate.

    But I can see how I can set up the valve using either a gate valve type construction or needle and seat design. In this case it is a big needle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I guess I've led a sheltered life all these years....... Engine pulls up to a Hydrant, drops Single or Dual lines, stretches down the street to the Fire. The next Engine arrives, Connects a Soft Sleeve (Anywhere from 4.5 to 6 inches Diameter, but always with a 4.5 female NST Thread to the Hydrant) and hooks up the supply lines and pumps to the First Engine....... That's all there is to it. Period. We NEVER (Yeah, I said Never, and that's absolutely True) Put extra lines on the Hydrant, use Hydrant valves, Flow water directly from the Hydrant to the attack Engine, Yada, Yada, Yada. None, Zero, etc. There is simply no need for all the fancy extras in Water Supply here. The Key to success?? Two things: First - We always (Yeah, Always) hook a Supply Pumper to the Hydrant, we DO NOT let a Hydrant Flow Water unless we're controlling it with a $350,000.00 Self Contained Mobile Hydrant Valve Assembly..... Second - Our Hydrants always have Water left over, no matter how much we're pulling out of it. Our Smallest Mains are 8 inches, and the Lowest Pressure that I've ever encountered in my district was around 80 psi Static, falling to 70 at 250 gpm.... A Hydrant that we use for Training (Due to it's Location) starts out with 125 psi and drops all the way to 110 when flowing 1,000 gpm. The Main size at that point is 16 inches........


    Jay - Should you happen to be Lurking and read this thread....... Your Hydrant is in the Mail, watch for a 300 pound package in a plain brown wrapper........
    OH,and JUST because this is how YOU do it that makes it right? NO Ldh,no REEL truck,NO RELAY VALVES,Harve you're just an damn Dino(saur)hehe.Put me down for a double order of those snacks you're getting,this is gonna take awhile . T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greg474 View Post
    I remember reading somewhere what percent of available water you can get from the steamer connection on a hydrant vs how much you can get if you hook the steamer and a side nipple. If anyone can point me toward a resource I would appreciate it.
    Not sure if I can cite a source, but I have always been taught about 80%.
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    Does anyone actually test the fire hydrant system BEFORE the fire so they know how much water they can expect to get from a hydrant ? Take a look at NFPA 291, Fire Flow Testing & Marking of Hydrants to get an idea how it is done. For less then $500 ( see links below) you can buy the equipment and know how many GPM you have coming out of a fire hydrant.

    Here is what you need to do the job:

    http://www.edarley.com/finditem/14642

    http://www.edarley.com/finditem/13580

    After you test the fire hydrant you can plot the results on 1.85 graph paper and know how many gpm you will have at any residual pressure you desire.

    http://www.inspector911.com/checklis...ph%20paper.pdf

    Here is a link to more info

    http://inspector911.com/needed-fire-flow/333
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsuranceLCRep View Post
    Does anyone actually test the fire hydrant system BEFORE the fire so they know how much water they can expect to get from a hydrant ? Take a look at NFPA 291, Fire Flow Testing & Marking of Hydrants to get an idea how it is done. For less then $500 ( see links below) you can buy the equipment and know how many GPM you have coming out of a fire hydrant.

    Here is what you need to do the job:

    http://www.edarley.com/finditem/14642

    http://www.edarley.com/finditem/13580

    After you test the fire hydrant you can plot the results on 1.85 graph paper and know how many gpm you will have at any residual pressure you desire.

    http://www.inspector911.com/checklis...ph%20paper.pdf

    Here is a link to more info

    http://inspector911.com/needed-fire-flow/333
    We don't.

    That falls under the responsibilities of the Water and Sewer Division of the City's Department of Public Works.
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