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  1. #1
    Forum Member explorer478's Avatar
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    Question Explorers spending the night???

    hey,
    I was wondering if there are any explorer posts out there that allow their explorers to spend the night at the firehouse? if so, what are the guidelines in order to do that? I'm looking to propose the idea of that to the guy that is over our explorer post. My dad is also gonna help me push this idea, he is a firefighter with the dept.

    thanks


  2. #2
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    I am not aware of any posts that do this. Whatever you end up doing remember, you still have to follow the Learning For Life Youth Protection Guidelines.

    "Separate accommodations. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the same tent or room with an adult other than their parents or guardians. We strongly encourage separate shower and toilet facilities for males and females, and when separate facilities are not available, posted shower schedules for males and females."

    This one seems to me like it would be difficult to get around in a lot of fire stations. It would still apply even though its not "camping."

  3. #3
    Forum Member explorer478's Avatar
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    There is seperate showers/bathrooms and seperate sleeping arrangements can be made. Right now we don't have any current explorers of the female gender so that wont be much of a problem unless the explorer is riding with a female firefighter in the crew. As far as having to spend the night with a parent or guardian, most of our explorers have realatives that our firefighters, like myself.

  4. #4
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I would argue that staying at the firehouse is not camping. But none the less, common sense should be utilized.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    I would argue that staying at the firehouse is not camping. But none the less, common sense should be utilized.

    It's not, but these rules were originally developed for the Boy Scouts. As I understand it the spirit of it would apply in this situation. Just my opinion, could be wrong. I would check with your local learning for life office just to be sure.

    These rules were made to protect youth from inappropriate acts and the adults from untrue accusations. I think everyone can agree that it shouldn't be taken lightly.

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    I'd say consult your department administration as well as your post heads. Make sure everyone agrees to it - even the shift guys you'll be staying with. My riding days were over a year ago, but just the part-time shifts we were allowd to ride with on my post were long enough to get a good experience. I'd be against this idea due to the fact enough experience can be obtained in a 8 or 9 hour shift.

    Keep in mind - I went about 15 shifts in a row in about 50 rides with 2 different departments without doing any runs.
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    My words stated here do not necessarily point towards organizations which I am affiliated with.

  7. #7
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    If you are not 18 years old, you have no business doing overnights. Period.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  8. #8
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    If you are not 18 years old, you have no business doing overnights. Period.
    Typical response from you. Bash with no justification. Unless you have some reasonable explanation for why, your response is as useless as just about all of your responses regarding anything to do with explorers/juniors.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  9. #9
    Forum Member explorer478's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFxplr326 View Post
    I'd say consult your department administration as well as your post heads. Make sure everyone agrees to it - even the shift guys you'll be staying with. My riding days were over a year ago, but just the part-time shifts we were allowd to ride with on my post were long enough to get a good experience. I'd be against this idea due to the fact enough experience can be obtained in a 8 or 9 hour shift.

    Keep in mind - I went about 15 shifts in a row in about 50 rides with 2 different departments without doing any runs.
    Thats what some of the guys that I talked to about this said, that to make sure the guys on shift are okay with it. One of the main ideas on this from them is that it should be the officers descision to let the explorer spend the night or not. Because there are some explorers that officers wouldnt want spending the night.

  10. #10
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Typical response from you. Bash with no justification. Unless you have some reasonable explanation for why, your response is as useless as just about all of your responses regarding anything to do with explorers/juniors.
    What exactly about it was bashing? And what about any of my other posts was bashing?

    Not that I have to qualify my opinion to you, but for what it's worth:

    -My organization has a very active Explorer and Junior Firefighter Program
    -I myself started out as a Junior Firefighter at the age of 16
    -I fully support and defend all properly run Explorer and Junior Programs, including adherance to all applicable State child labor laws

    I do not condone any program that breaks child labor laws (anyone under the age of 18 is a child, therefore does not belong in a firehouse at night/after hours), I do not condone any program that allows them to leave school (which I was allowed to do, and had a large part in my poor grades) or otherwise expose the explorers/juniors to enviromnents/situations in which they have no business being.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  11. #11
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    So you're now the expert on the child labor laws of all 50 states, all the BSA rules, and all departments regulations to say undoubtedly that nobody under 18 belongs at a firehouse overnight. Interesting, I'll be sure to call you the next time I have a question and save myself the time.

    Whats the difference between staying overnight and responding from home on a friday night? Nothing. Whats the difference between being on a long drawn out fire call all night long that began in the evening and staying overnight? Nothing. Whats the differences between 5pm and 11pm and 3am and 6am? Its dark. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to go? Is it only when the sun is up? Or what does "night" mean? I know what it means for us. Clearly you don't.

    So my point is don't make blanket statements when you have no business making them.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  12. #12
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    So you're now the expert on the child labor laws of all 50 states, No, but I do have a vast knowledge of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's laws, which I understand are very similar to many other states regulations. all the BSA rules, I wouldn't know anything about the BSA's rules as our program is in-house and is not of their sanctioning. and all departments regulations to say undoubtedly that nobody under 18 belongs at a firehouse overnight. Interesting, I'll be sure to call you the next time I have a question and save myself the time.

    Whats the difference between staying overnight and responding from home on a friday night? Nothing. I'll use Pennsylvania for my references here (again similar to many other states)- Under the child labor laws, a child under the age of 18 may not respond to incidents after 11pm ir before 6am on school nights. Many organizations (my own included) continue to forbid responding between these hours regardless of it being a school night or not. Whats the difference between being on a long drawn out fire call all night long that began in the evening and staying overnight? Nothing. You may not be at an incident or "on duty" for more than 8 hours. Our solicitor has advised that Duty Time in the station counts towards this 8 hour time period. Whats the differences between 5pm and 11pm and 3am and 6am? Its dark. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to go? Is it only when the sun is up? Or what does "night" mean? I know what it means for us. Clearly you don't.

    So my point is don't make blanket statements when you have no business making them.
    Children do not belong in a firehouse after hours. I am curious- what other activities do you allow those under the age of 18 to participate in, and does your liability insurance carrier know this, as well as your Workman's Comp and Injury Insurance providers?


    Oh- and BTW- if you want to know why I am so passionate about protecting Junior Firefighters from stupidity and irresponsibility, google the name "Christopher Kangas." That was a few towns over from me.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 12-01-2009 at 05:51 PM.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  13. #13
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    All of the above applies only to your department. It has no application to anyone that isn't in your department. I'm sorry but your department is not the end-all of policy and procedure. And furthermore, a perfect example is that you don't even know the BSA side of things and this kid is an Explorer. So once again, you're making blanket statements about things you have no business making statements about.

    Chris Kangas was a tragic incident, but completely unrelated to this. However, I understand the point you're trying to make as far protecting these kids. Believe me I know. I've been running our explorer program for years and some of them become like and extension of your family. One of my explorers died this spring (not related to a FD activity) and it was the most awful thing I have been through in all of my 27 years. Even though his death had nothing to do with the FD, I beat myself up for weeks trying to figure out why I couldn't have prevented it.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that it is possible to do what this kid is asking and do so safely and within all applicable laws in places other than you department.
    Last edited by nmfire; 12-01-2009 at 06:51 PM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Our Department does not allow overnight Ride-Alongs until you are 18. Even when you are 18, you are limited to five 24-Hour ride alongs. On our ride alongs in general, a female explorer has to be assigned to a station and apparatus with a female on board. The ride-along hours during school are 5-9PM and 7AM-10PM on weekends.

    Just my 2 cents.

  15. #15
    Forum Member explorer478's Avatar
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    I'am on nmfire's side on this one. And FWDBuff, You might be familiar with Pennsylvainia laws but diffrent states have diffrent laws.

  16. #16
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Anyway, the bottom line is that it is possible to do what this kid is asking and do so safely and within all applicable laws in places other than you department.
    I repeat........

    Children do not belong in a firehouse after hours. I am curious- what other activities do you allow those under the age of 18 to participate in, and does your liability insurance carrier know this, as well as your Workman's Comp and Injury Insurance providers?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  17. #17
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by explorer478 View Post
    I'am on nmfire's side on this one. And FWDBuff, You might be familiar with Pennsylvainia laws but diffrent states have diffrent laws.
    No, but the internet sure does make it easy to look up.....From the Tennessee Department of Labor's website:

    MINORS 16 AND 17 YEARS OF AGE MAY NOT BE EMPLOYED:

    * During those hours when the minor is required to attend classes;
    * Between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m., Sunday through Thursday evenings preceding a school day, except with parental or guardian consent. Then the minor may work until midnight no more than three nights Sunday through Thursday. Forms shall remain valid until the end of the school year in which it is submitted or until termination of employment, whichever shall occur first. Consent forms are available from the Tennessee Department of Labor and Workforce Development's Division of Labor Standards by calling 615-741-2858.

    Wow....what was that I said about Pennsylvania- Similar to many other states????
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  18. #18
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Yup. And an Explorer on a boy scout overnight event is not an employee.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  19. #19
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Yup. And an Explorer on a boy scout overnight event is not an employee.
    Nice attempt at a diversion. I pose the question again- what other activities do you allow those under the age of 18 to participate in, and does your liability insurance carrier know this, as well as your Workman's Comp and Injury Insurance providers?

    And how about the BSA for that matter?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  20. #20
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Yup. And an Explorer on a boy scout overnight event is not an employee.
    Yeah, like I said about the internet, it's a wonderful thing. From the "Rules and Regulations" of Explorer Post #945, you might be familiar with these....I draw your attention to section 7, part 1, sub-section D

    Now, why are we arguing about under-18 year olds being allowed at the station overnight?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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