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  1. #21
    Forum Member Res343cue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    That's a good question they wont tell you. They just send a paper with what it would cost per radio and per pager. Them told of us to sign or there would be no more repair's done to the county system. We just had to have a minitor4 and a xts 2500 repaired the charged us 652.45 for the portible and 150.00 for the pager. Now this is what us wrong the portable the digal face plate went out and the battery connecting wouldn't hold to keep the portable on the pager the speaker didn't work. and by the way the portable still doesn't work and they told us o well in writing we didn't sign there contract
    First - when you sign a service contract with Motorola, whether it be Mother-M itself, or one of it's National Service Centers, it's cut and dry as to what is covered. You can choose to have everything possible under the son covered, or elect to have only absolute mission critical parts of the system included in a service/warranty contract.

    Secondly, repairs at Motorola are guaranteed. If you've sent it in to the Depot, or an actual MSS, then your repairs will be covered if they "break" or if they aren't fixed and you pay for it. Now, if it's gone into the depot damaged, and they send it back to you broken and you don't check the slip to see that it's non-repairable, that's not their fault. But your'e still on hook for some fee at that point. By the amount of the charge, it looks like it was flat-rate repaired at the Depot, take it back to your MSS and demand they fix it. If they don't, get Motorola's contact info and start making complaints. You'll get your radio repaired without paying another penny.

    Motorola may have built in a service contract within the original spec for the system design. They are well within their rights to say "unless you spend the money to extend it, we're no longer covering it after expiration", which is probably the case here. System maintenance then becomes your responsibility, and you have to pay for an outside company to come in and fix things anyways.

    There's more to this story then what you are being told, or what you're releasing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue View Post
    First - when you sign a service contract with Motorola, whether it be Mother-M itself, or one of it's National Service Centers, it's cut and dry as to what is covered. You can choose to have everything possible under the son covered, or elect to have only absolute mission critical parts of the system included in a service/warranty contract.

    Secondly, repairs at Motorola are guaranteed. If you've sent it in to the Depot, or an actual MSS, then your repairs will be covered if they "break" or if they aren't fixed and you pay for it. Now, if it's gone into the depot damaged, and they send it back to you broken and you don't check the slip to see that it's non-repairable, that's not their fault. But your'e still on hook for some fee at that point. By the amount of the charge, it looks like it was flat-rate repaired at the Depot, take it back to your MSS and demand they fix it. If they don't, get Motorola's contact info and start making complaints. You'll get your radio repaired without paying another penny.

    Motorola may have built in a service contract within the original spec for the system design. They are well within their rights to say "unless you spend the money to extend it, we're no longer covering it after expiration", which is probably the case here. System maintenance then becomes your responsibility, and you have to pay for an outside company to come in and fix things anyways.

    There's more to this story then what you are being told, or what you're releasing.
    this is what the county sheriff's department and the ema director's are telling us
    so who know's just repeating what they tell us

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lump532 View Post
    I agree, get a second opinion. Then get a third after that.

    Are you on a system that requires you to use Motorola? If not check out some different manufacturers too.

    It looks like we are switching to Tait radios. Better radio at a lower price. Not that I endorse one brand, just an example.
    How are these priced compared to the other brands? I have never heard of them before. They look impressive from the pictures though.
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
    IACOJ

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrescue View Post
    How are these priced compared to the other brands? I have never heard of them before. They look impressive from the pictures though.
    Don't hold me to it, but for our States 700 and 800 mhz trunked system the portables were about 1600. That included a smart charger, spare battery and a shoulder mic.

    They come ruggedized already (extra cost with Moto) and have a lot more channels (Talkgroups, whatever they call them) than the Moto's. Also, the accessories, like the shoulder mic, are significantly easier to change out.

    If memory serves me, the motos were in the 2500 range.

    I will try to remember to get exact prices and model numbers when I am back at work.

  5. #25
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    This is why i refer to them as mot-whore-ola. It makes me sick.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lump532 View Post
    Don't hold me to it, but for our States 700 and 800 mhz trunked system the portables were about 1600. That included a smart charger, spare battery and a shoulder mic.

    They come ruggedized already (extra cost with Moto) and have a lot more channels (Talkgroups, whatever they call them) than the Moto's. Also, the accessories, like the shoulder mic, are significantly easier to change out.

    If memory serves me, the motos were in the 2500 range.

    I will try to remember to get exact prices and model numbers when I am back at work.
    our dealer charges us in Indiana 3500.00 each no price brake

  7. #27
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    Default More Towers

    I need to correct one of your myths:

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    There a numerous threads about this - but I figured one under the name narrowbanding may help people searching.

    Myths about narrowbanding include,

    3. We will need many more towers to get the same coverage. No, not really. There is a small loss in coverage - but after a lot of testing I have found it to be really minimal. With the systems I have dealt with, using a splinter channel has actually done quite well, losing much of the co-channel interference they had been experiencing.
    If you have one transmitter per channel, you're right, that's a myth. You will lose a little signal to noise ratio in fringe areas. But most users can live with that.

    BUT, if you have a larger system, with multiple transmitters per channel, working simultaneously, it gets much more complicated and much more expensive. It's not a brand thing, it's physics. The tolerances on mixing a signal on the air gets much more difficult when the signals are narrowbanded. Twice as many towers isn't too far off of an estimate. More rent, more equipment, more circuits, much more money. That that doesn't change no matter what vendor you choose. What might change is how much you pay up front versus in change orders later to get the system to work right.

    If your trunking or conventional system covers a very large area, there's a good chance you're using simulcast. Before you tell everyone it's just a matter of programming some radios, find out if you use simulcast.

    Before this gives Simulcast a bad name, it's an excellent technology for public safety radio. When you would normally start to hear static from the repeater in a single TX system, simulcast helps fill in the gaps so you rarely lose signal. The only downside is the cost to narrow band it.

    The real problem, IMHO, is that the FCC let everyone and their brother pee in the Public Safety Pool and now they wonder why it's overflowing. When my Fire Department has to share channels with school buses and plumbers, something is wrong with the system. Not the radio system, the FCC's system of frequency management.

    Ray

  8. #28
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Most conventional systems with multiple transmitters in a wide area are one-at-time selectable by the dispatcher or with a site-steering capable comparator. A true conventional simulcast system is very rare.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  9. #29
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    Default How rare?

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Most conventional systems with multiple transmitters in a wide area are one-at-time selectable by the dispatcher or with a site-steering capable comparator. A true conventional simulcast system is very rare.
    Rare, but not as rare as years ago. GPS technology made Simulcast feasible and easy to maintain because it offers an extremely stable frequency reference at each site. Many of the manual or steerable systems of the 1970s and 80s are simulcast now. The real advantage is that as your users fade from one transmitter, there's an excellent chance they're in range of another. Steered or manually changed transmitters can't compensate for that. Simulcast is also used on multisite trunking systems.

    If you happen to have a mountain in your territory, a single site transmitter could be a good match and easy narrow banding. But if you're relatively flat, urban or need good building penetration, Simulcast is a great solution.

    If you have multiple transmitters and your dispatcher manually switches them, or have steering, narrowbanding will make upgrading later very expensive also. I think if you ask anyone that went from one transmitter at a time to simulcast, they won't ever want to go back. I know we never will.

  10. #30
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    All very true.... as long as you have the checkbook big enough to fund all the required infrastructure for it. Which is why it is still rare. It may be not as rare, but still rare.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  11. #31
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    Well we have our meeting with motorola last nite chief and asst chief county meeting and told them what we new and what they were trying to make us buy was going to happen. So to make a long story short they told us that they owned the 154.220 and all of our other channel's and we are going to buy what they want us to buy or we ant going to have any channel's. Now to tell you all qho they think the own our channel's is they fill out the paper work for the county dispatch. Well they didn't to there home work because every fire department in the county has there on license for the channel's we use and we all have our on call letter's to kinwood just sold the entire county a new highband system for police fire and ems now only if they sale pager's.

  12. #32
    Forum Member Res343cue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    Well we have our meeting with motorola last nite chief and asst chief county meeting and told them what we new and what they were trying to make us buy was going to happen. So to make a long story short they told us that they owned the 154.220 and all of our other channel's and we are going to buy what they want us to buy or we ant going to have any channel's. Now to tell you all qho they think the own our channel's is they fill out the paper work for the county dispatch. Well they didn't to there home work because every fire department in the county has there on license for the channel's we use and we all have our on call letter's to kinwood just sold the entire county a new highband system for police fire and ems now only if they sale pager's.
    Please, take a clue-pon.

    What was that you tried to say?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

  13. #33
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    I have no clue wtf most of that is supposed to mean. However what little I could gather from it, Motorola is lying, they trying to scam you. Do not listen to them. Everything that I and Res343cue have said still stands.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  14. #34
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    I will jump in for a bit.

    We run a county wide dispatch system that uses four primary frequencies – Paging – currently wide band simple repeater system , Police – Multi-cast narrow band, EMS – Multi-cast narrow band and Fire – also multi-cast narrow band.

    We have been running our Law and EMS frequencies as a wide band multicast system for a number of years 10 + on Law and 5+ on EMS with pretty decent results – some dead areas in the fringe – we are a long narrow county with water all around – lots of bluffs and remote Islands.

    Three years ago we were lucky to receive an AFG grant to rebuild our fire communication system, this system at the time was a simple repeater system, and the upgrade was to bring it up to a multi-cast system. Part of that upgrade was to also narrow band our existing Law and EMS frequency.

    As we moved to the narrow band system we saw a significant increase in the size of our fringe areas due to reduced coverage when narrow banding was put in place. We have been very fortunate to be able to build out our Fire System with several additional receive only sights that do not support EMS and Law, and the difference is noticeable for us. Many areas Fire can get into dispatch with a portable where the Law and EMS standing alongside of us cannot get in.

    Radios are soup to nuts – Motorola, Icom , Kenwood , and Vertex. What we found in a significant portion of the radios we owned was that yes they could “technically” narrow band, but there were many frequencies the radio would simple not accept – we found this across all manufactures. In other words if a radio could take freq 123.456 then it could take 123.4560 but not 123.4565 – not sure if that makes sense to all of you, but they could not take the “new” in between frequencies only the narrow band of the old frequencies.

    As to pagers we have a mix of Minitor 3/4/5’s most are set up with dual channel and scan. As of now paging channel has stayed wide band so we have no issues there – when we scan the other frequencies (EMS pagers scan EMS – Fire Pagers scan Fire) there is some noticeable reduction in volume and quality.

    Over all we are happy with our upgrades and are hoping to be able to upgrade the paging system to a simulcast system.


    Stay Safe

    SBLGFD

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    Default narrow band

    I thought I would post this incase anyone would like to check it out.


    https://event.on24.com/eventRegistra...epage=register

  16. #36
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    yes our dealer told all of the department in our county that we are going to have to replace all radio's ,pager's and truck system's that's about 35 fire truck's 4 ambulance's,325 pager's and 325 portable's. we have motorola3 pager's and our portable's are xts 2500 and 5000 and are on the safe t net which is a freaken joke
    If you are on the Hoosier SAFETNET, your SAFETNET radios do NOT NEED TO BE NARROWBANDED.

  17. #37
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    This guy is an excellent resource for anyone buying, thinking about buying, spec'ing, or just worried if they are going to comply with the new communications standards. He is giving free seminars at various venues (although there may be a cost for the venue itself in some cases, or your 911 director can help you get in) throughout the US.

    He is an attorney. Get the jokes out, I have never seen any other attorney have the grasp on the technical issues related to communication like he does. He even pops up here on Firehouse from time to time. Anyone wanting to stay out of trouble would be really smart to attend one of his seminars. His information is below his spring schedule.



    Or you can listen to salespeople, and read misinformed articles.


    IWCE - March 8-12
    Indiana NENA - March 25
    Alabama APCO - March 30
    Arkansas APCO/NENA - March 12-13
    New Jersey NENA - April 20
    Texas APCO - April 26
    APTA Bus & ParaTransit - May 3-5
    PA APCO - May 17-19

    More to come!

    ---

    Alan S. Tilles, Esq.
    Chairman, Telecommunications Department

    atilles@shulmanrogers.com | T 301.231.0930 | F 301.230.2891

    SHULMAN, ROGERS, GANDAL, PORDY & ECKER, P.A.
    12505 PARK POTOMAC AVENUE, 6TH FLOOR, POTOMAC, MD 20854
    <http://www.shulmanrogers.com/>

  18. #38
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    Unhappy

    Areas that are flat may see little coverage loss with Narrow banding, But in our area we have been testing and our portables are almost worthless other then line of sight we had a 30% or greater loss of coverage we have had to add repeaters in our trucks just to hit our towers we have been raising antennas replacing radios and trying to add repeaters and I hope when it all done its worth all the money and effort

  19. #39
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    That is highly unusual. Something more than just changing to 12.5khz modulation took place to reduce your coverage that much. What else changed?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I wish someone could tell me and we would save a lot of cash. but so far no other reason has been found and except in areas where we had issues before the truck repeater system allows our portables to get out.

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