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    Default NARROWBANDING of radios

    There a numerous threads about this - but I figured one under the name narrowbanding may help people searching.

    2013 we have to narrowband.

    What is narrowbanding? Look at your frequency now - it takes up a set amount
    of space in the spectrum. For those who care, that means 25Khz of spectrum.

    The FCC has mandated that this be split up, to give us more spectrum, in a process
    called narrowbanding. Now, instead of a narrow one lane road, our channels will
    be like a two lane road. More traffic can now flow. The spaceing now will be 12.5 Khz. There is a drop dead date for this - 1-1-2013. Radios produced for the past many years
    has been narrowband capable to 12.5 Khz, with only programming needed to make it so. Radios certified since 1997 have had this requirement.

    In the future, although no drop dead date has been announced for this part of
    narrowbanding, we will actually have to split it into 4 lanes. 6.25Khz. Now, while
    there is no FCC requirement for a date to start using this - there is a mandate from
    the FCC that in 2010 transmitters must be capable of 6.25, and that effectively means
    digital. Don't get scared though - nothing says you have to use it, and NOTHING says the equipment has to be digital out of the box, a digital CAPABLE radio, ie upgradeable, meets this requirement.

    NOTE: THIS ONLY APPLIES TO 150-174 and 450 -512 MHZ. Lowband, 800, 72 Mhz links, microwave, are NOT affected by this. Thats right, don't trust your dealer (and there are a number of them that are being less than truthful) if you are lowband, you do NOT need to dump your old system and go narrowband.

    So what does all that boring stuff mean?

    1. You will at a minimum have to file a license amendment changing your license to narrowband. (You can show narrow and wideband at the same time till 2013)

    2. Radios you have bought new in this decade are most likely narrowband ready, radios
    from prior to that may or may not be. Those will have to be replaced.

    3. Reprogram and operate.

    Myths about narrowbanding include,

    1. We have to go 800 now. No, you don't. There is no FCC requirement to change to 800 Mhz.

    2. We have to go Digital. No, you don't. Lots of dealers are pushing their digital formats as a more inexpensive alternative to P25 - but the fact remains you do NOT need to go digital at this point to comply, and seeing as it has taken us 15 years to get to the first drop dead date, I think doing so could prove to be foolish. Those non-P25 systems are not built for public safety, not to public safety standards. I think digital, both in P25 and the Mototrbo as well as the ICOM/Kenwood NXDN has a lot of potential, but a lot of kinks yet to be worked out. Also, a lot more may become available in the meantime.

    3. We will need many more towers to get the same coverage. No, not really. There is a small loss in coverage - but after a lot of testing I have found it to be really minimal. With the systems I have dealt with, using a splinter channel has actually done quite well, losing much of the co-channel interference they had been experiencing.

    4. We have to go digital due to the grants. No, you don't. You do have to comply with your state plan - and in some areas it is for you to go to 800, in some areas it is to use tac channels, it varies. narrowbanding has nothing to do with it.

    Bottom line. Don't trust that first slick salesguy. Get some information. Talk to multiple sales guys. Ask here. (I don't have a dog in the hunt to sell you radios) DON'T trust what you google. The dates and requirements have changed so many times that there is still a LOT of misinformation running around out there. NMFIRE here on the forums is another great source.

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    Well put LVFD: "Don't believe what the salesmen tell you"

    Do your homework first and write out a comprehensive plan to swap over ALL of your systems radios . Start with your FCC license[s]. We are moving our primary transmit /repeater site to a new tower that has just been put up in our town.[only 7 years in the works] We had to change our license so we submitted the narrowband change at the same time. Our second freq. change is also submitted to the channel co-ordinator.
    Doing it now to avoid the drop dead date rush and backlog.

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    Dead on....with a little bit of planning and some work on your radio guys part, it can be done.

    My department purchased radio programming software and paid for me to spend some time with a radio tech and it was well worth the money and time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Well put LVFD: "Don't believe what the salesmen tell you"

    Do your homework first and write out a comprehensive plan to swap over ALL of your systems radios . Start with your FCC license[s]. We are moving our primary transmit /repeater site to a new tower that has just been put up in our town.[only 7 years in the works] We had to change our license so we submitted the narrowband change at the same time. Our second freq. change is also submitted to the channel co-ordinator.
    Doing it now to avoid the drop dead date rush and backlog.
    FYI - We have been doing, and will continue to do, tons of education on narrowbanding. We put on hours of seminars at IWCE, and we do presentations at many APCO, IACP and other public safety conventions. We'll continue to do that, and urge you to come. With only two budget cycles left, you must be engaged now.

    A previous poster was correct, there is a ton of inaccurate information circulating about narrowbanding. I even put in my presentation a Top 10 Lies section. In particular, I would pay attention to the FCC's Public Notice this week, which made clear that you MUST narrowband, or you will lose your license. There is no "going secondary" option.

    A number of municipalities are putting out RFPs now to get bids on equipment, help with planning, etc. We'd be happy to assist.

    Alan S. Tilles, Esquire
    Shulman Rogers Gandal Pordy & Ecker, P.A.
    www.shulmanrogers.com

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    we were told that we would have to buy new pager's we use motorola 3 and 4 do we have to but the 5 or what we use 154.220 as our dispatch

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanTilles View Post
    I even put in my presentation a Top 10 Lies section.
    No doubt 9 out of the 10 top lies came from the Motorola sales guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    we were told that we would have to buy new pager's we use motorola 3 and 4 do we have to but the 5 or what we use 154.220 as our dispatch
    Let me guess, a Motorola salesman told you that? I'm glad your educating people on this stuff. The lies and BS they spew is sickening.

    No you do not NEED to buy new pagers. The old 2/3/4 pagers do not support narrowband however it will not cease their functionality when you switch to narrowband. What will happen is the audio will be a little quieter and it might get a little staticy just a little bit sooner as in the fringe area of your coverage.

    The minitor 5 supports narrowband but it is NOT necessary to replace all your pagers.
    Last edited by nmfire; 12-26-2009 at 02:48 PM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    No doubt 9 out of the 10 top lies came from the Motorola sales guide.



    Let me guess, a Motorola salesman told you that? I'm glad your educating people on this stuff. The lies and BS they spew is sickening.

    No you do not NEED to buy new pagers. The old 2/3/4 pagers do not support narrowband however it will not cease their functionality when you switch to narrowband. What will happen is the audio will be a little quieter and it might get a little staticy just a little bit sooner as in the fringe area of your coverage.

    The minitor 5 supports narrowband but it is NOT necessary to replace all your pagers.
    yes our dealer told all of the department in our county that we are going to have to replace all radio's ,pager's and truck system's that's about 35 fire truck's 4 ambulance's,325 pager's and 325 portable's. we have motorola3 pager's and our portable's are xts 2500 and 5000 and are on the safe t net which is a freaken joke

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    yes our dealer told all of the department in our county that we are going to have to replace all radio's ,pager's and truck system's that's about 35 fire truck's 4 ambulance's,325 pager's and 325 portable's. we have motorola3 pager's and our portable's are xts 2500 and 5000 and are on the safe t net which is a freaken joke
    Whoa. Wait a minute, dump the brakes. First, forget the pagers. They are fine. Second, what do you have in the trucks? I'd be willing to bet a lot of them are already capable of narrowband operation without replacement. You dealer is smelling college tuition for his kids at your expense.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Whoa. Wait a minute, dump the brakes. First, forget the pagers. They are fine. Second, what do you have in the trucks? I'd be willing to bet a lot of them are already capable of narrowband operation without replacement. You dealer is smelling college tuition for his kids at your expense.
    I agree, get a second opinion. Then get a third after that.

    Are you on a system that requires you to use Motorola? If not check out some different manufacturers too.

    It looks like we are switching to Tait radios. Better radio at a lower price. Not that I endorse one brand, just an example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lump532 View Post
    I agree, get a second opinion. Then get a third after that.



    It looks like we are switching to Tait radios. Better radio at a lower price. Not that I endorse one brand, just an example.
    You will be pleasantly surprised with the TAIT radios!
    We bought them with our 2007 AFG funding & were able to get a lot better quality and more units than our previous brand. We've had zero problems with them and will be purchasing more in the future!

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    we have in all of our truck's the follow radio's one rat pack which is a mt1000 or ht 1000 high band the rat pack is a booster to make the high bans 25 watt's than the 800 is digatal smart net is for the hoosier safe t net work not sure what model they are the came thou about 4year's ago and reprogram's them all to dig from anlog and then evry member carries a motorola xts5000 800 or xts 2500 and the pager's are all minitor4's every department had these type of radio's and some of us also have kenwood's. Alot of the department's kept all there old highband's which are mt 1000, ht 1000, ht 1225 and mt600 there is a lot of differant model's at differant department in the county we are looking into kenwood and ef johnson's also

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lump532 View Post
    I agree, get a second opinion. Then get a third after that.

    Are you on a system that requires you to use Motorola? If not check out some different manufacturers too.

    It looks like we are switching to Tait radios. Better radio at a lower price. Not that I endorse one brand, just an example.
    it's the state system u are have to use either motorola or ef johnson or the system wont let u on

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanTilles View Post
    Alan S. Tilles, Esquire
    Shulman Rogers Gandal Pordy & Ecker, P.A.
    www.shulmanrogers.com
    Hey - I can't advertise on here - neither can you.

    I can't sell my services, and the one post where I referenced offering a bid I got smacked for it. Why should you be able to?

    PS: What's the difference between a wife and an attorney? I get to screw my wife before giving her all my money. Attorneys screw you and take the money anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    it's the state system u are have to use either motorola or ef johnson or the system wont let u on
    Ugh. That thing. its a P25 smartzone so ya you're pretty much stuck with those two options. Your new XTS series portables are all capable. But all those other ones are no-go.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Ugh. That thing. its a P25 smartzone so ya you're pretty much stuck with those two options. Your new XTS series portables are all capable. But all those other ones are no-go.
    we figured that but the our deal is there telling us that the pager are not going to work and we will buy new or we wont be tone to call. And yes we have that in writing from motorola.c and kenwood and ef johnson saying the hell with motorola. and thank guy's motorola is tell us all that it will be 475.00 a piece to replace each pager. and the kenwood dealer said he can get them for 375.00 each or we can buy kenwood portables with a pager built in them for 275.00 each. so now where do you go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    we figured that but the our deal is there telling us that the pager are not going to work and we will buy new or we wont be tone to call. And yes we have that in writing from motorola.c and kenwood and ef johnson saying the hell with motorola. and thank guy's motorola is tell us all that it will be 475.00 a piece to replace each pager. and the kenwood dealer said he can get them for 375.00 each or we can buy kenwood portables with a pager built in them for 275.00 each. so now where do you go?
    Your "old" pagers will still activate with narrowband channels. I have personally tested this with a large quantity of pagers from Minitor IIs up through the Minitor IV. You will lose a little bit of volume due to the radio portion of the pager not being driven as hard as they would with a wideband channel.

    It's also possible to replace one of the audio amps in the pagers to increase the volume. We have done that successfully in house with Minitor IIIs and Minitor IVs. Your mileage may vary, and it's not something that Motorola would support. I'd be willing to say that your pagers are out of warranty as it is, so that's a non issue.

    Knowing the Motorola pricing, $475 per pager is a little high, but it's not astronomical. Tell your dealer he can cut another $40-$50 off the price, with current incentives offered by Motorola. After all, if you're doing a complete change-over to knew hardware, he gets additional discounts. For the wondering, the pricebook specifies different dealer costs for 1-19 units, 20-50, and 50-100 I believe. I don't remember off the top of my head exactly, but Motorola does have some cool incentives available currently. I bid pagers at around $445 with the default warranty for quantities less than 20.

    There's no way you're going to be paying $375 for a Minitor V pager through a Kenwood dealer. Compare an apple to an apple. The Minitor V is not in the same "market" as the Appollos, Swissfone, and other smaller brand pagers. Your mileage will vary - but I'll trust my Minitor V over the Appollo or Swissfone any day of the week.

    Also, for the $275 dollar price tag you're quoting, there is absolutely no way that you'll be purchasing a radio that is in the "public safety" portion of any manufacturers product line. The <$400 market is for commercial users, or smaller government agencies such as DPW, sewer services, community service teams, etc.

    There is federal moneys available, through programs like the PSIC grants, to help fund your radio purchases and further your department's communications capabilities. Generally, you're looking at a 20% match. The deal with the grant money is don't write your narrative and request to meet the current need. Design your request to meet future needs and interoperability with other agencies. A regional project, while a large task to tackle, is even more attractive because of the cost/benefit ratio.

    Any further questions, feel free to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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    the pager's aren't they are 4year's old and that another thing that burn's our butt's is that when we lost the federal csepp program motorola came thou and told all fire police andems in a 4 county area that it would cost all fire and ems anywere from 1500 to 6500 dollar a year for warrenty contract's and law enforcment itwas going to cost of 10,000.00 a year. and no geruntee that the paart would be coverd in the contract's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    the pager's aren't they are 4year's old and that another thing that burn's our butt's is that when we lost the federal csepp program motorola came thou and told all fire police andems in a 4 county area that it would cost all fire and ems anywere from 1500 to 6500 dollar a year for warrenty contract's and law enforcment itwas going to cost of 10,000.00 a year. and no geruntee that the paart would be coverd in the contract's.
    1500 to 6500 a year to cover what exactly? Those numbers are not quantitative or qualitative without more information.

    $1500 dollars a year for warranty coverage on a hundred pagers? That's a hell of a deal. $6500 dollars a year for coverage on a multi-site system with voted receivers, that's a STEAL!

    Typically speaking, repairs are covered up to "X" portion, and cover specific system components.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue View Post
    1500 to 6500 a year to cover what exactly? Those numbers are not quantitative or qualitative without more information.

    $1500 dollars a year for warranty coverage on a hundred pagers? That's a hell of a deal. $6500 dollars a year for coverage on a multi-site system with voted receivers, that's a STEAL!

    Typically speaking, repairs are covered up to "X" portion, and cover specific system components.
    That's a good question they wont tell you. They just send a paper with what it would cost per radio and per pager. Them told of us to sign or there would be no more repair's done to the county system. We just had to have a minitor4 and a xts 2500 repaired the charged us 652.45 for the portible and 150.00 for the pager. Now this is what us wrong the portable the digal face plate went out and the battery connecting wouldn't hold to keep the portable on the pager the speaker didn't work. and by the way the portable still doesn't work and they told us o well in writing we didn't sign there contract
    Last edited by jeremy1213; 12-29-2009 at 10:46 PM.

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    and the 6500 is per each dispatch radio there are 2 at county jail, two at one of the city police department's and 4 at our eoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy1213 View Post
    That's a good question they wont tell you. They just send a paper with what it would cost per radio and per pager. Them told of us to sign or there would be no more repair's done to the county system. We just had to have a minitor4 and a xts 2500 repaired the charged us 652.45 for the portible and 150.00 for the pager. Now this is what us wrong the portable the digal face plate went out and the battery connecting wouldn't hold to keep the portable on the pager the speaker didn't work. and by the way the portable still doesn't work and they told us o well in writing we didn't sign there contract
    First - when you sign a service contract with Motorola, whether it be Mother-M itself, or one of it's National Service Centers, it's cut and dry as to what is covered. You can choose to have everything possible under the son covered, or elect to have only absolute mission critical parts of the system included in a service/warranty contract.

    Secondly, repairs at Motorola are guaranteed. If you've sent it in to the Depot, or an actual MSS, then your repairs will be covered if they "break" or if they aren't fixed and you pay for it. Now, if it's gone into the depot damaged, and they send it back to you broken and you don't check the slip to see that it's non-repairable, that's not their fault. But your'e still on hook for some fee at that point. By the amount of the charge, it looks like it was flat-rate repaired at the Depot, take it back to your MSS and demand they fix it. If they don't, get Motorola's contact info and start making complaints. You'll get your radio repaired without paying another penny.

    Motorola may have built in a service contract within the original spec for the system design. They are well within their rights to say "unless you spend the money to extend it, we're no longer covering it after expiration", which is probably the case here. System maintenance then becomes your responsibility, and you have to pay for an outside company to come in and fix things anyways.

    There's more to this story then what you are being told, or what you're releasing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue View Post
    First - when you sign a service contract with Motorola, whether it be Mother-M itself, or one of it's National Service Centers, it's cut and dry as to what is covered. You can choose to have everything possible under the son covered, or elect to have only absolute mission critical parts of the system included in a service/warranty contract.

    Secondly, repairs at Motorola are guaranteed. If you've sent it in to the Depot, or an actual MSS, then your repairs will be covered if they "break" or if they aren't fixed and you pay for it. Now, if it's gone into the depot damaged, and they send it back to you broken and you don't check the slip to see that it's non-repairable, that's not their fault. But your'e still on hook for some fee at that point. By the amount of the charge, it looks like it was flat-rate repaired at the Depot, take it back to your MSS and demand they fix it. If they don't, get Motorola's contact info and start making complaints. You'll get your radio repaired without paying another penny.

    Motorola may have built in a service contract within the original spec for the system design. They are well within their rights to say "unless you spend the money to extend it, we're no longer covering it after expiration", which is probably the case here. System maintenance then becomes your responsibility, and you have to pay for an outside company to come in and fix things anyways.

    There's more to this story then what you are being told, or what you're releasing.
    this is what the county sheriff's department and the ema director's are telling us
    so who know's just repeating what they tell us

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lump532 View Post
    I agree, get a second opinion. Then get a third after that.

    Are you on a system that requires you to use Motorola? If not check out some different manufacturers too.

    It looks like we are switching to Tait radios. Better radio at a lower price. Not that I endorse one brand, just an example.
    How are these priced compared to the other brands? I have never heard of them before. They look impressive from the pictures though.
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
    IACOJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrescue View Post
    How are these priced compared to the other brands? I have never heard of them before. They look impressive from the pictures though.
    Don't hold me to it, but for our States 700 and 800 mhz trunked system the portables were about 1600. That included a smart charger, spare battery and a shoulder mic.

    They come ruggedized already (extra cost with Moto) and have a lot more channels (Talkgroups, whatever they call them) than the Moto's. Also, the accessories, like the shoulder mic, are significantly easier to change out.

    If memory serves me, the motos were in the 2500 range.

    I will try to remember to get exact prices and model numbers when I am back at work.

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    This is why i refer to them as mot-whore-ola. It makes me sick.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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