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  1. #1
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    Default long driveway pack

    My district is mountainous, with lots of long, steep, narrow driveways which turn to ice in the winter. Our engines currently carry 2 pre-connects, one 200', one 150' long. There exists a great possibility that the first due engine won't be able to get even that close to a structure let alone get enough hose inside to reach the far end of some of our GIANT houses.

    Currently, we'd have to pull enough 2.5" hose out of the hosebed to get near the structure, then either disconnect one of the pre-connects or unroll a few sticks of 1.75" and dig out a nozzle. Not impossible, but not very speedy.

    I am proposing that we pre-connect 200' of 2.5" hose in the bed (we already have the rear discharges, they're just not preconnected) with a gated wye attached. This could be pulled as far as it goes and then a sort of hi-rise pack with attached nozzle could be deployed for entry.

    How does one make a hi-rise pack (Never even seen one in real life)? Just like a packed preconnect but duct taped? How does that deploy? Cut the duct tape or just charge the line? Is there a better way?


  2. #2
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    You don't need a highrise pack, It can be done with the hose already in the bed. Connect a horseshoe load of 150 feet 1.75" to your deuce and a half in the hosebed, using a playpipe with a shutoff as the control valve When deploying, the first firefighter grabs the horseshoe load, places it on his shoulder, grabs a flakeor two of deuce and half and walks off to the fire. The second firefighter grabs a few flakes of deuce and a half and follows the nozzleman. At the door, the 1.75" is flaked out, the playpipe control is opened and a call for water is made. Entry can the be made with a charged line once the air is expelled.

    The pump operator makes the connection to a discharge port, charges the line and then adjusts the pressure based on the amount of line deployed, type of nozzle and elevation.
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  3. #3
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    Hmm... yes, something like that could work. Perhaps just a flat load of 2.5 with a another flat load of 1.75 on top? I don't know if we have the room for a horseshoe load in the space alloted... 1100' of supply takes up most of the hose bed.

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    Excellent question. You are halfway there with your answer.

    My old dept had similar circumstances, but without the really nice houses.

    We used a preconnected 2.5 hose w/ a nozzle as a "bomb line" for rapid deployment on large fires. If we needed to perform an "extended line attack" we would take a highrise kit and the bombline and connect them together. this would give you about 350 feet of attack line and the availability of a wye to hook another hose to.

    PS: Don't use duct tape on hoses. use straps. Duct tape belongs on your wardrobe and in the bedroom.

    Basically, because of the weight of the 2.5 hose, we did a "mall load" where the first section was preconnected to the hosebed discharge and pulled out of the way. the remaining 3 sections were flaked into the hosebed with the nozzle at the very bottom of the load. Then the first section was hooked up to the remaining lay. When it was deployed the entire load was brought out onto your shoulder and you would walk to where you wanted, flaking the 2.5 off your shoulder as you walked. This served to avoid dragging 200 feet of 2.5 hose over the ground. it got easier as you walked. I tried the "mall load" at another dept using 3.0 hose and it was almost impossible to deploy due to the weight/size of the load. 200 feet of 2.5 hose is about all you'd want to do this with and the little guys are going to struggle. (But then they should be on the box anyways)

    This worked well for the 2.5 bombline. It worked just as well for the extended line attack. The only difference was the addition of the highrise kit.

    Our highrise kit was 150 feet of 1.75 hose w/ a nozzle and gated wye attached and buckled together w/ seatbelts. They make vlecro belts to hold these together too. You can also double-donut roll a 100 foot section w/ the couplings out and attach the nozzle/wye. Either way, you'll have to try it and see what works best.

    Practice your "driveway deployments" and keep an open mind. This is useful for a lot of fires where access is poor.

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    Thanks Popknot! That mall load sounds ideal for deploying the supply portion over our rough and uneven ground... the less we can drag it, the easier.

    We'll play around with it and see what works for us!

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    It might be worth looking into how you pack your preconnects. If you tweak the way you load them, it might make it easier for a firefighter to break the preconnect and throw the whole load on his shoulder, while other firefighters work on bringing the 2.5 up.

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    We keep two - 200' back-up lines connected to rear discharges. One is a 3" with 2 1/2" couplings and allows the attachment of a water thief (has 3 gated outlets - two 1 1/2" and one 2 1/2") to replace the nozzle. When faced with long access like the rear of a big box or a long inaccessable drive, we break the 1 3/4" preconnect shoulder loads at the 10 foot leader and carry the whole thing to the scene. Reconnect the shoulder load to the water thief. Normal pump pressure for the engine is 180 psi on the 200' - 1 3/4" with automatic lines. Once the 1 3/4" lines are operating, the RIT advances the 2 1/2" shoulder load to the thief and reconnects it to the 2 1/2" outlet on the thief. The P.O. just keeps on running at 180 psi, because the 200' of 3" at 500 gpm has a friction loss of 50 psi or the thief is at 130 psi with the 1 3/4" lines flowing 130 gpm and the 2 1/2" running 250 gpm.

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    We have a similiar set-up to Popknot, except 2.5" is 300' and 1.75" is only 100'. Our highrise is about 3' long two side by side 50' stacks, velcro with a shoulder strap. Good luck, practice till you can't get it wrong with whatever you come up with.

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    what kushee said.

    "Leader lines" are short sections of hose that allow you to break your precons off w/o having to climb the truck and reach the dang elbows.

    see about having some 6 foot hoses added to your precons. you will be able to disconnect your hoses at street level and use them at the end of you 2.5 supply.

  10. #10
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    Our circumstances are a bit different, (Large Condo Bldgs) but we have some long stretches also. The best arrangement that we've come up with so far is a "Dead Load" of 600 ft. of 2.5 with a 150 ft horseshoe load of 1.5 on top of the 2.5, and connected to it with a 2.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 gated wye. Crew takes the bundle and the wye, and starts pulling the 2.5 along. when they indicate that there is enough line out, the Driver makes the break, etc.... Works well for us......
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    We have the same exact situation. Couple years ago we had a fire on top of this hill where the driveway was pure ice. We have a 3-way gated valve (It isn't a Y, must be a W) that connects via a storz to the 4 inch LDH. In this case our first in got 2/3 up, they were laying in as well, it was about 1/4 mile back in, and got stuck. No other vehicles could get in. We did exactly what you did, we pulled in lengths of 4" took the pre-connects up, and fought the fire that way. One other thing to consider is putting those things on that give the chains on demand. Forget the actual name, but something to get more traction. I also thought it would be nice for those situations to have a 4 wheel drive ATV available. It could easily be connected to a trailer on the first in truck.

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    All of our vehicles are 4wd and are chained when the forecast predicts 10+ inches of snow. Sometimes that's not enough.

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    Long before mattydales were standard on engines companies had the pre-connected 2 1/2" line with wye and two 1 1/2" lines and called it the "Frisco load".

    Took 2 firefighters to work it properly, one to grab each of the smaller lines and the wye it gave you two working attack lines of 150' each.

    We ran it at Spring Mill in the 70's and Lower Providence in the 80"s.
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    What happened to the days when we didn't rely on preconnected hoses and actually had to estimate the stretch as part of the attack?

    With distances varying between target hazards, a blanket "one size fits all" approach won't work for estimating how long your dead-lay and attack line lengths need to be. This is the reason why departments like FDNY et al use dead loads and stretch the line to meet the needs to put out the fire.

    How much room is left on your engines? Full height compartments on both sides? Departments in Maryland, Boston, Philly, etc, have utilized trays mounted below the right sided hose rack for attack lines. You could an additional attack line in that position just for these homes. This leaves you with the rear bed being dedicated to your 2.5" leader and your LDH supply.

    If the fire is occuring such a long distance, and growing while you haul hose, why not just go all 2 1/2 anyways? If it's any significant amount of fire, why worry about having to get multiple lines in service? Sure, you can crank out just as much water from an 1 3/4 as a 2 1/2, but have fun handling the hose! With a properly trained and experienced crew getting a 2 1/2 in service should be no more of an issue than getting the 1 3/4 if you're already using the 2 1/2 for a leader line anyways!

    The thought about preconnecting 200' of 2 1/2 has merit. The issue comes when the 200' is short, and your driver now has to disconnect, break the dead lay, and reconnect again. If you're going to go for big lines, go for length too. How far is your typical stretch on these target hazards? Plan to take the 2 1/2 line all the way in! With the fire already having a jump on you, why waste time with a smaller line? It's not "only" the gallons of water you have, but the rate you apply it!

    In situations like this, 2 1/2 beats your 1 3/4 any day of the week.

    Can you get a piece of apparatus up the driveway at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Car651 View Post
    What happened to the days when we didn't rely on preconnected hoses and actually had to estimate the stretch as part of the attack?
    That is an option but when a pre-connect works most of the time, it sure is a time saver

    With distances varying between target hazards, a blanket "one size fits all" approach won't work for estimating how long your dead-lay and attack line lengths need to be. This is the reason why departments like FDNY et al use dead loads and stretch the line to meet the needs to put out the fire.
    As a small rural volunteer department, we don't have the training time necessary for that to work.

    How much room is left on your engines? Full height compartments on both sides? Departments in Maryland, Boston, Philly, etc, have utilized trays mounted below the right sided hose rack for attack lines. You could an additional attack line in that position just for these homes. This leaves you with the rear bed being dedicated to your 2.5" leader and your LDH supply.
    Full height on one side usually. The new engine we have coming has full height on both sides.

    If the fire is occuring such a long distance, and growing while you haul hose, why not just go all 2 1/2 anyways? If it's any significant amount of fire, why worry about having to get multiple lines in service? Sure, you can crank out just as much water from an 1 3/4 as a 2 1/2, but have fun handling the hose! With a properly trained and experienced crew getting a 2 1/2 in service should be no more of an issue than getting the 1 3/4 if you're already using the 2 1/2 for a leader line anyways!
    If it's defensive we go to 2.5". We've tried to implement it for interior operations but found it to be too cumbersome for us and our manpower limitations.

    The thought about preconnecting 200' of 2 1/2 has merit. The issue comes when the 200' is short, and your driver now has to disconnect, break the dead lay, and reconnect again. If you're going to go for big lines, go for length too. How far is your typical stretch on these target hazards? Plan to take the 2 1/2 line all the way in! With the fire already having a jump on you, why waste time with a smaller line? It's not "only" the gallons of water you have, but the rate you apply it!

    In situations like this, 2 1/2 beats your 1 3/4 any day of the week.

    Can you get a piece of apparatus up the driveway at all?
    Most driveways we can get all of our apparatus up most of the year... we spec short, 4wd engines but weather changes everything.

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    We have a set up that is very similar to what has been mentioned. About 20 years ago we had a rush of people building two story 10 plex apartment buildings. They are clustered together in a couple of different spots in our city. About 19 years ago we had a room and contents fire in one of the apartments. We soon discovered that our 150' 1.5 inch preconnect was too short.

    After that, we set up what we call an "apartment" lay. It is 2.5 hose flat laid with a 2.5 x 1.5 gated wye on the end. Our 1.5 preconnects are 200' long now. If we need more than that we use the apartment lay. The 1.5 hose is taken off the truck and put onto the wye and the wye gets dropped at the door. It has worked several times that we have deployed it.

    A "high rise pack" (in my department anyway) is simply 200' of 1.5 hose with a nozzle on one end and a 2.5 to 1.5 adapter on the end for standpipes. We have this buckled together so when it's needed, a firefighter tosses it on their shoulder and off they go. Some people get fancy with a bag but old seatbelts work just fine. Whatever you do, make it easy to set up, and easy to deploy. Seatbelts, bungie cords, a bag, whatever as long as it plays out ok.

    Would someone who owns a home with a long narrow driveway be willing to let your department train using their driveway? You could sell it to them that this will let your department become practiced for when the day comes if they need it. Just try several different set ups to see what works best.
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    While I don't like the dependence on preconnects either, and try to always make an estimation of how much hose I need, they do have merits. If I have a preconnected length that works for most of my fires and some extra dead loaded underneath I have a versatile load.

    I have a preconnected line that works make 80%+ of the time, and for the other 20% I can break the preconnect(same amount of work for a dead load) or break the preconnect and hook the bottom dead load up for the added length (only an extra one connection and perhaps an extra breaking of the line).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post

    Would someone who owns a home with a long narrow driveway be willing to let your department train using their driveway? You could sell it to them that this will let your department become practiced for when the day comes if they need it. Just try several different set ups to see what works best.
    We have several members of the department with these long driveways... no shortage of places to practice!

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    400' of 2 1/2" deadlay on rear. 2 "bundles" of 100' 1 3/4" with gated wye and nozzle on each.

    Nozzle man grabs 1 bundle and goes to fire building. Backup/Door/Control work together to get 2 1/2" stretched to fire building. Nozzle man drops bundle and flakes out 1 3/4" line. Other guys connect the 2 1/2 to wye and open the 1 3/4 side when ready.

    2nd due engine will bring another bundle and connect to other wye port. Gives us 2 lines in operation.

    Pic of our bundle...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    400' of 2 1/2" deadlay on rear. 2 "bundles" of 100' 1 3/4" with gated wye and nozzle on each.

    Nozzle man grabs 1 bundle and goes to fire building. Backup/Door/Control work together to get 2 1/2" stretched to fire building. Nozzle man drops bundle and flakes out 1 3/4" line. Other guys connect the 2 1/2 to wye and open the 1 3/4 side when ready.

    2nd due engine will bring another bundle and connect to other wye port. Gives us 2 lines in operation.

    Pic of our bundle...
    Very similiar to what we do.
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