Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 51

Thread: nfpa1901

  1. #21
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking View Post
    Help me out...what does the NFPA standard say in regards to this?
    Maximum Speed. Vehicles are now subject to a maximum speed limit that varies according to the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and the water or foam tank capacity. Vehicles with GVWRs over 26,000 pounds must not exceed 68 mph or the rated speed of the tires, whichever is lower. Vehicles with GVWRs over 50,000 pounds, or those with water or foam tank capacities that are more than 1,250 gallons, individually or combined, must not exceed 60 mph or the rated speed of the tires, whichever is lower.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."


  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,922

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Plainsvol View Post
    we would like 70-75mph to able to match interstate vehicle traffic, are district is 660 sq miles and it take us 25-30 minutes to reach our northern area, no mutual aid is close in these areas.
    I can only figure you are in NE Colorado? Maybe up near Julesberg? (The sheriff up there
    was super helpful once to us..)


    I understand what you are looking at - but exceeding those standards, without beefing up the truck itself, is a recipe for disaster, and the actual rewards of 10MPH faster is really only going to be a couple of minutes at best. 2. Even beefing up the truck, it still is simply not a good idea.

    There has to be a better way to skin it. Face it - if it is a structure fire and you are having to respond from that far away - what is the point? 5 minutes or 10 is not going to save it.

    If it is ground cover fire, then it sounds like an arguement to preplace equipment - small firehouses for wildland trucks, or even wildland trailers. Train some of the local ranchers in pulling and using them. Get those on scene quickly. Get your equipment there pre-positioned, and then respond your people in smaller safer vehicles. Often you can put together trailers from surplus, and get the farmers to provide shelters.

  3. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDCar1 View Post
    Wrong again. They passed a law, entitled "Bradley's Law" (Bradley Golden was the recruit killed in that LODD) which states that a live victim cannot be used during live fire training. that's only one little part of NFPA 1403. However in the guilty finding, and in the sentencing, the judge cited non-compliance with NFPA 1403 as a part of the finding.
    Just curious as to how I was wrong. I said NYS passed a law.

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Maximum Speed. Vehicles are now subject to a maximum speed limit that varies according to the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and the water or foam tank capacity. Vehicles with GVWRs over 26,000 pounds must not exceed 68 mph or the rated speed of the tires, whichever is lower. Vehicles with GVWRs over 50,000 pounds, or those with water or foam tank capacities that are more than 1,250 gallons, individually or combined, must not exceed 60 mph or the rated speed of the tires, whichever is lower.
    Actually, those rules make sense. We aren't driving indy cars here, this are big azz trucks. And these trucks are driven by folks with nothing more than a drivers license for a car. It is crazy we don't have special licensing for fire trucks. I have seen a few fellows driving these things that really shouldn't be.

  5. #25
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, some OSHA regs specifically point to NFP regulations, which means if you do not follow those regs you will be fined.
    Which ones there old Genius ?

  6. #26
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, those rules make sense. We aren't driving indy cars here, this are big azz trucks. And these trucks are driven by folks with nothing more than a drivers license for a car. It is crazy we don't have special licensing for fire trucks. I have seen a few fellows driving these things that really shouldn't be.
    When you say we, i'm not sure who you are referring to??

    Most of us are firefighters. Are you talking about whatever it is you do?

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  7. #27
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Thank you all for the insight and opinions.

  8. #28
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    When you say we, i'm not sure who you are referring to??

    Most of us are firefighters. Are you talking about whatever it is you do?

    LOL! what he said !

  9. #29
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have seen a few fellows driving these things that really shouldn't be.
    When? While you were adjusting the mirrors so you could see how totally awesome you look driving a brush truck?

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    866

    Cool NFPA Standards

    While the NFPA 1901 is a "Standard" and not legally binding except in a few states that have adopted it as part of their OSHA regulations, it is enforced by the expert from out of town in the pin striped suit, red tie with a brief case. Called an attorney! As so well spoken in a previous post, the attorney for a family of a loved one injured or killed by a fire truck in an accident, will glean any little infraction of the laws and/or NFPA standards to crucify the fire department and the fire chief. It's all about what they convince the jury was the cause of this horrendous accident, not necessarily reality.

    I think the speed limits were enacted because of braking limits on the heavy trucks. For any of you that had a high school physics class, the braking energy required to stop the vehicle is equal to the Energy = Mass x (velocity squared) So a minor change in velocity has a huge change in the amount of energy required to stop the vehicle. So to increase the speed 7 mph from 68 mph. to 75 mph. (A 10% increase) requires a (22% increase) in braking energy to stop the vehicle. You'll have to trust my math.

    While I wouldn't recommend it, you could ask the builder of the rig to deliver it with a 75 mph top speed. Some may provide your request. Or take it to your local large truck dealer after its delivered and have them change the rear axle ratio. But make sure you have a lot of GVW margin on the chassis so the brakes are still plenty capable of stopping the rig.
    Last edited by donethat; 12-02-2009 at 10:49 AM.

  11. #31
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post


    Or take it to your local large truck dealer after its delivered and have them change the rear axle ratio.
    I followed your post until this part? What exactly do you think changing the rear axle ratio will accomplish?
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  12. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    866

    Default Rear Axle Ratio

    GTrider245
    Well from drag racing days, a 4.11 rear ratio will get you a higher top speed than a 4.56 ratio. But the 4.56 ratio will get you faster acceleration. Same is true for truck rear axle ratios.

  13. #33
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    GTrider245
    Well from drag racing days, a 4.11 rear ratio will get you a higher top speed than a 4.56 ratio. But the 4.56 ratio will get you faster acceleration. Same is true for truck rear axle ratios.
    Did your drag racers have electronic speed governors? All that would accomplish is higher or lower engine RPMs with the same top speed.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  14. #34
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    1,928

    Default

    It seems like your time and effort would be better spent building a substation

  15. #35
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    312

    Default

    Hold up before I finish reading the rest of the post...

    For those of you that said NFPA is a set of guidelines and not laws you are correct. NFPA cannot make laws, Congress does.

    Now NFPA can be laws if your state adopts them and makes them laws.

    Or, if you have a governing body for all state fire department like a State Fire Commission or a district fire commission then yes you are held to those guidelines. Not because they are laws but because they are governming procedures for which your organization is founded and operating under.

    Plus for the court trial, this may be in the other posts and I may find it when i finish reading, if the Assistant Chief's answer was as you posted then.... well what else is there to say. I am sure there are other circumstances of the case. What was the case? I would like to read it. Plus I think NY adopts a lot of NFPA guidelines as laws.

  16. #36
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    It seems like your time and effort would be better spent building a substation


    Oh I thought you said spacestation!
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  17. #37
    MembersZone Subscriber voyager9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    2,007

    Default

    All of the above boils down to Risk vs Reward.
    What is the risk of not following NFPA and increasing the top speed?
    -- longer breaking distance and potentially less safe.
    -- opens the door for potential liability in the event something happens on the road.

    What is the reward?
    -- Able to get across county 2-3 minutes sooner (approx 10%).

    In my opinion the risk is not worth the reward in this case. Even saving 10% you're still looking at 20+ minutes. As chief stated above by that point it's not going to matter. The risk of driving the vehicle above it's capabilities or conditions is just too great.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

  18. #38
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    S.W. Virginia
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pasobuff View Post
    Have you done the math to see how much (or little) time you would save increasing your speed? Yes, minutes count, but when you already have a 20 minute response time, saving maybe 1 minute off that vs. the increased risks traveling at a higher speed.......to me I'd rather get there in one piece......
    O.K. so I was curious (and being a engineering / computer nerd) so I did the math.

    Assuming a 60mph top speed now - a 25 minute response time = 25 mi trip.
    So for the same 25 mile trip:
    60MPH = 1.00 Mi/Min = 25.0 min trip time - Base Line
    65MPH = 1.08 Mi/Min = 23.2 min trip time - 1.8 Min gross gain
    70MPH = 1.16 Mi/Min = 21.5 min trip time - 3.5 Min gross gain
    75MPH = 1.25 Mi/Min = 20.0 min trip time - 5.0 Min gross gain

    This also assumes that the entire 25 mile trip is at "top speed" which we know isn't going to be true. So you're really looking at maybe 1 to 3 minutes net gain in overall response time.

    Now - as pasobuff (and others) have pointed out - is that 1-3 minute net gain over a 25 minute response time really going to make a difference? I'm sure valid arguments could be made for both sides. Bottom line is whether you agree or disagree - it's the OP's Dept. that ultimately needs to make that decision. Not me, not you, not any of the other members of FH.com

    Also - it is ultimately the responsibility of the Driver to regulate the speed of his/her vehicle. Just because it CAN to 75 MPH does not automatically mean that is HAS to go 75MPH all the time. After all - you don't see passenger autos getting governed to "posted" speed limits. It's not one single bit harder or easier to mame, injure, or kill another person thru reckless operation of a vehicle because it's a Pierce instead of a Porsche.

    So - now that we have beat the Pro's and Con's of this idea into the ground - why don't we just answer the OP's question and have a little faith that his Dept. will do what is right for them.

    [End Soap Box Session]
    ============================== ==========================

    Plainsvol -

    You do not need a waiver from NFPA for this or any other deviation from their standards.

    Most if not all apparatus manufacturers however will normally build to meet all applicable NFPA 1901 (and other) apparatus requirements. For any deviation from those standards the Manufacturer will most likely ask for some type of documentation of what the deviation(s) is/are and that you requested it/them.

    This may be something as simple as a letter from your department head on agency letterhead to as elaborate as a contract page added to your bid / build contract.

    Your best bet for definitive information would be to talk to any perspective builder(s) you have your eye on for the truck in question.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  19. #39
    Forum Member MoosemanKBB527's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Middlesex NY
    Posts
    187

    Default

    the way i look at it is that your now driving a vehicle 15MPH slower that everything else on the road, thats if people drove at 75MPH which as we all know isnt going to happen its more like the recommended minimum these days. so you possible looking at going 20 to 25 MPH slower that the traffic around you. so just how safe are you with these new "guidelines", and I use that term loosely because even though they arnt laws try to find someone that will build a truck that isn't NFPA
    ~Big O~

    Tankers have wheels and carry water, Tenders are breaded and served with BBQ sauce

    (if you don't believe me Google it)

  20. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    When? While you were adjusting the mirrors so you could see how totally awesome you look driving a brush truck?
    As typical, nothing of substance and another personal attack Must be a horrible existence going through life being so bitter and uneducated.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. new proposed NFPA1901-2008
    By firetruck101 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-28-2007, 09:01 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts