Thread: nfpa1901

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, those rules make sense. We aren't driving indy cars here, this are big azz trucks. And these trucks are driven by folks with nothing more than a drivers license for a car. It is crazy we don't have special licensing for fire trucks. I have seen a few fellows driving these things that really shouldn't be.
    When you say we, i'm not sure who you are referring to??

    Most of us are firefighters. Are you talking about whatever it is you do?

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Thank you all for the insight and opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    When you say we, i'm not sure who you are referring to??

    Most of us are firefighters. Are you talking about whatever it is you do?

    LOL! what he said !

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have seen a few fellows driving these things that really shouldn't be.
    When? While you were adjusting the mirrors so you could see how totally awesome you look driving a brush truck?

  5. #30
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    Cool NFPA Standards

    While the NFPA 1901 is a "Standard" and not legally binding except in a few states that have adopted it as part of their OSHA regulations, it is enforced by the expert from out of town in the pin striped suit, red tie with a brief case. Called an attorney! As so well spoken in a previous post, the attorney for a family of a loved one injured or killed by a fire truck in an accident, will glean any little infraction of the laws and/or NFPA standards to crucify the fire department and the fire chief. It's all about what they convince the jury was the cause of this horrendous accident, not necessarily reality.

    I think the speed limits were enacted because of braking limits on the heavy trucks. For any of you that had a high school physics class, the braking energy required to stop the vehicle is equal to the Energy = Mass x (velocity squared) So a minor change in velocity has a huge change in the amount of energy required to stop the vehicle. So to increase the speed 7 mph from 68 mph. to 75 mph. (A 10% increase) requires a (22% increase) in braking energy to stop the vehicle. You'll have to trust my math.

    While I wouldn't recommend it, you could ask the builder of the rig to deliver it with a 75 mph top speed. Some may provide your request. Or take it to your local large truck dealer after its delivered and have them change the rear axle ratio. But make sure you have a lot of GVW margin on the chassis so the brakes are still plenty capable of stopping the rig.
    Last edited by donethat; 12-02-2009 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post


    Or take it to your local large truck dealer after its delivered and have them change the rear axle ratio.
    I followed your post until this part? What exactly do you think changing the rear axle ratio will accomplish?
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  7. #32
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    Default Rear Axle Ratio

    GTrider245
    Well from drag racing days, a 4.11 rear ratio will get you a higher top speed than a 4.56 ratio. But the 4.56 ratio will get you faster acceleration. Same is true for truck rear axle ratios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    GTrider245
    Well from drag racing days, a 4.11 rear ratio will get you a higher top speed than a 4.56 ratio. But the 4.56 ratio will get you faster acceleration. Same is true for truck rear axle ratios.
    Did your drag racers have electronic speed governors? All that would accomplish is higher or lower engine RPMs with the same top speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    It seems like your time and effort would be better spent building a substation

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    Hold up before I finish reading the rest of the post...

    For those of you that said NFPA is a set of guidelines and not laws you are correct. NFPA cannot make laws, Congress does.

    Now NFPA can be laws if your state adopts them and makes them laws.

    Or, if you have a governing body for all state fire department like a State Fire Commission or a district fire commission then yes you are held to those guidelines. Not because they are laws but because they are governming procedures for which your organization is founded and operating under.

    Plus for the court trial, this may be in the other posts and I may find it when i finish reading, if the Assistant Chief's answer was as you posted then.... well what else is there to say. I am sure there are other circumstances of the case. What was the case? I would like to read it. Plus I think NY adopts a lot of NFPA guidelines as laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    It seems like your time and effort would be better spent building a substation


    Oh I thought you said spacestation!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    All of the above boils down to Risk vs Reward.
    What is the risk of not following NFPA and increasing the top speed?
    -- longer breaking distance and potentially less safe.
    -- opens the door for potential liability in the event something happens on the road.

    What is the reward?
    -- Able to get across county 2-3 minutes sooner (approx 10%).

    In my opinion the risk is not worth the reward in this case. Even saving 10% you're still looking at 20+ minutes. As chief stated above by that point it's not going to matter. The risk of driving the vehicle above it's capabilities or conditions is just too great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasobuff View Post
    Have you done the math to see how much (or little) time you would save increasing your speed? Yes, minutes count, but when you already have a 20 minute response time, saving maybe 1 minute off that vs. the increased risks traveling at a higher speed.......to me I'd rather get there in one piece......
    O.K. so I was curious (and being a engineering / computer nerd) so I did the math.

    Assuming a 60mph top speed now - a 25 minute response time = 25 mi trip.
    So for the same 25 mile trip:
    60MPH = 1.00 Mi/Min = 25.0 min trip time - Base Line
    65MPH = 1.08 Mi/Min = 23.2 min trip time - 1.8 Min gross gain
    70MPH = 1.16 Mi/Min = 21.5 min trip time - 3.5 Min gross gain
    75MPH = 1.25 Mi/Min = 20.0 min trip time - 5.0 Min gross gain

    This also assumes that the entire 25 mile trip is at "top speed" which we know isn't going to be true. So you're really looking at maybe 1 to 3 minutes net gain in overall response time.

    Now - as pasobuff (and others) have pointed out - is that 1-3 minute net gain over a 25 minute response time really going to make a difference? I'm sure valid arguments could be made for both sides. Bottom line is whether you agree or disagree - it's the OP's Dept. that ultimately needs to make that decision. Not me, not you, not any of the other members of FH.com

    Also - it is ultimately the responsibility of the Driver to regulate the speed of his/her vehicle. Just because it CAN to 75 MPH does not automatically mean that is HAS to go 75MPH all the time. After all - you don't see passenger autos getting governed to "posted" speed limits. It's not one single bit harder or easier to mame, injure, or kill another person thru reckless operation of a vehicle because it's a Pierce instead of a Porsche.

    So - now that we have beat the Pro's and Con's of this idea into the ground - why don't we just answer the OP's question and have a little faith that his Dept. will do what is right for them.

    [End Soap Box Session]
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    You do not need a waiver from NFPA for this or any other deviation from their standards.

    Most if not all apparatus manufacturers however will normally build to meet all applicable NFPA 1901 (and other) apparatus requirements. For any deviation from those standards the Manufacturer will most likely ask for some type of documentation of what the deviation(s) is/are and that you requested it/them.

    This may be something as simple as a letter from your department head on agency letterhead to as elaborate as a contract page added to your bid / build contract.

    Your best bet for definitive information would be to talk to any perspective builder(s) you have your eye on for the truck in question.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
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    the way i look at it is that your now driving a vehicle 15MPH slower that everything else on the road, thats if people drove at 75MPH which as we all know isnt going to happen its more like the recommended minimum these days. so you possible looking at going 20 to 25 MPH slower that the traffic around you. so just how safe are you with these new "guidelines", and I use that term loosely because even though they arnt laws try to find someone that will build a truck that isn't NFPA
    ~Big O~

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    When? While you were adjusting the mirrors so you could see how totally awesome you look driving a brush truck?
    As typical, nothing of substance and another personal attack Must be a horrible existence going through life being so bitter and uneducated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    While the NFPA 1901 is a "Standard" and not legally binding except in a few states that have adopted it as part of their OSHA regulations, it is enforced by the expert from out of town in the pin striped suit, red tie with a brief case. Called an attorney! As so well spoken in a previous post, the attorney for a family of a loved one injured or killed by a fire truck in an accident, will glean any little infraction of the laws and/or NFPA standards to crucify the fire department and the fire chief. It's all about what they convince the jury was the cause of this horrendous accident, not necessarily reality.

    I think the speed limits were enacted because of braking limits on the heavy trucks. For any of you that had a high school physics class, the braking energy required to stop the vehicle is equal to the Energy = Mass x (velocity squared) So a minor change in velocity has a huge change in the amount of energy required to stop the vehicle. So to increase the speed 7 mph from 68 mph. to 75 mph. (A 10% increase) requires a (22% increase) in braking energy to stop the vehicle. You'll have to trust my math.

    While I wouldn't recommend it, you could ask the builder of the rig to deliver it with a 75 mph top speed. Some may provide your request. Or take it to your local large truck dealer after its delivered and have them change the rear axle ratio. But make sure you have a lot of GVW margin on the chassis so the brakes are still plenty capable of stopping the rig.
    Get out of town!!! Are you telling me you learned something in school that applies to the Fire Service??? That looks like physics. Gee Nozzlehead, would this fit into your tiny realm of acceptable classes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I followed your post until this part? What exactly do you think changing the rear axle ratio will accomplish?
    It give you a higher speed at the same engine RPM, however you give up torque. So unless that engine governor is tied to the speed of the vehicle and not the engine RPMs it will go faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoosemanKBB527 View Post
    the way i look at it is that your now driving a vehicle 15MPH slower that everything else on the road, thats if people drove at 75MPH which as we all know isnt going to happen its more like the recommended minimum these days. so you possible looking at going 20 to 25 MPH slower that the traffic around you. so just how safe are you with these new "guidelines", and I use that term loosely because even though they arnt laws try to find someone that will build a truck that isn't NFPA
    I routinely drive 80 mph on the thruway. I have passed many a trooper and they set there. However, i am all the time coming up upon slower vehicles doing 65 or 70 and some times less. The Big red truck will be highly visible and shouldn't be a problem.

    Speed is a major factor in 95% of all accidents. Just look at all of the wrecks over the last year. [sarcasm]Of course we can't talk about these accidents until NIST has finished their flawed report [/sarcasm] . However, any time you manage to put one of these big trucks on its side there was too much speed involved. All the governors in the world won't do a bit of good if the loose nut behind the wheel doesn't drive properly.

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    Default NFPA 1901 Compliant Statement

    Under the new NFPA 1901 standard that took effect Jan of this year vehicle manufacturers must provide a list of all items that do not comply with the standard or that need to be installed in order to comply. The list will become part of the final specifications and the department will be required to sign an acknowledgement that these items must be corrected or installed before the vehicle is placed in emergency service, (Sections 4.21 to 4.21.3 of 1901).

    This is not a legalized waiver that allows a department to install non-compliant components, omit other components or allow a manufacturer build a non-compliant truck by simply signing off on items that do not meet the standard. It is a legally binding document that places full responsibility on the fire department to make the vehicle compliant before operating it. If a manufacturer is willing to build a truck that is non-compliant I don't think I would want them building my truck.

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    Don't worry about the speed.Just get in the left lane and if everybody passes you,oh well.Try to stop or make an evasive manuver with at least 4 tons of water plus the weight of your truck.You MUST drive with due reguard to arrive to be able to do something.Time is of the escence but you got to use your head.Clobering someone because your adrenalin is on overdrive is going to be hard to live with.
    It's not that life is so short,it's cause you're dead for so long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It give you a higher speed at the same engine RPM, however you give up torque. So unless that engine governor is tied to the speed of the vehicle and not the engine RPMs it will go faster.
    Not so. On an electronic motor the max speed is set. The computer doesn’t care what the RPM is, when it hits the max speed setting the truck stops speeding up. The same is for the RPM setting when the truck hits the max RPM setting it will not gain RPM in any gear. They are two separate settings.

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    Tom is correct, the body builder will require the fire department to sign off on anything that is done to the truck that makes it non-NFPA complaint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It give you a higher speed at the same engine RPM, however you give up torque. So unless that engine governor is tied to the speed of the vehicle and not the engine RPMs it will go faster.
    Oh my God.. now he thinks he's an automotive engineer...
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    Cool Top Speed

    rm1524
    You are correct. If the top speed is electronically limited by the engine computer reading the transmission speed input then the gear ratio change will not help and the engine computer top speed setting has to be reset by the Engine manufactures dealer technician.
    But reseting the computer will eventually run up against whatever the rear axle ratio is in limiting top speed.

    But if the top speed is rear axle ratio limited, the rear axle ratio has to be changed.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Tom is correct, the body builder will require the fire department to sign off on anything that is done to the truck that makes it non-NFPA complaint.
    Most won't even let you sign off anymore.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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