Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 51

Thread: nfpa1901

  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    48

    Default nfpa1901

    Is there any way to get a waiver from NFPA standards over vehicle speed?


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Plainsvol View Post
    Is there any way to get a waiver from NFPA standards over vehicle speed?
    A standard is not a law, it's a suggestion. How fast do you want to go and why?

  3. #3
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Plainsvol View Post
    Is there any way to get a waiver from NFPA standards over vehicle speed?
    WHY ? ? ?


    How fast do you want the truck to go?


    Going over the highest posted speed limit is very foolish.

    You want to go faster, get in an airplane.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    In the nicest possible way of asking, why in the world would you want to do this?

    And you realize you are talking about a complete re-design of the vehicles?

    Why is the question that is begging an answer.

  5. #5
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,390

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Plainsvol View Post
    Is there any way to get a waiver from NFPA standards over vehicle speed?
    Why do you need a waiver? Since when did the NFPA become law?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Upstate (Albany area), NY
    Posts
    422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    A standard is not a law, it's a suggestion. How fast do you want to go and why?
    Tell the Assistant Chief from NYS that went to jail for not following an NFPA Standard that it's just a "suggestion"! Far from a "suggestion", the NFPA Standards are consensus-based best practices that our performances are continually being measured against. And if that measurement is being made by a judge or jury, then a FD better have an OUTSTANDING explanation as to why their plan, policy, or procedure is so much better than the national consensus standard...

    LAWYER: "So Chief Smith, please explain to the jury why you decided to ignore the national standard on maximum speed of a piece of fire apparatus, and instead deliberately specified that the apparatus that killed my client's wife, son, and two daughters, be built with maximum speeds that allowed such reckless operation?"

    CHIEF SMITH: "Aaahhhhh... Because we wanted to to go fast?"

    Somehow, I'm not thinking that it's a winner.....
    Last edited by DFDCar1; 12-01-2009 at 11:59 AM.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    A standard is not a law, it's a suggestion. How fast do you want to go and why?
    we would like 70-75mph to able to match interstate vehicle traffic, are district is 660 sq miles and it take us 25-30 minutes to reach our northern area, no mutual aid is close in these areas.

  8. #8
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Plainsvol View Post
    we would like 70-75mph to able to match interstate vehicle traffic, are district is 660 sq miles and it take us 25-30 minutes to reach our northern area, no mutual aid is close in these areas.
    If any of you say this same thought hasnt crossed your mind at least once while responding on the interstate I will call you a liar.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    WHY ? ? ?


    How fast do you want the truck to go?


    Going over the highest posted speed limit is very foolish.

    You want to go faster, get in an airplane.
    70-75
    That is all I am asking for is to be able to do the speed limit.
    I wish I had helo, it would cut down my response time.

  10. #10
    Forum Member pasobuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Loverly upstate NY
    Posts
    1,734

    Default

    Have you done the math to see how much (or little) time you would save increasing your speed? Yes, minutes count, but when you already have a 20 minute response time, saving maybe 1 minute off that vs. the increased risks traveling at a higher speed.......to me I'd rather get there in one piece......

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDCar1 View Post
    Tell the Assistant Chief from NYS that went to jail for not following an NFPA Standard that it's just a "suggestion"! Far from a "suggestion", the NFPA Standards are consensus-based best practices that our performances are continually being measured against. And if that measurement is being made by a judge or jury, then a FD better have an OUTSTANDING explanation as to why their plan, policy, or procedure is so much better than the national consensus standard...
    I'm well aware the consequences of NOT following NFPA standards if something should go wrong, but my statement was not false. NFPA standards are not law and there is no penalty for not following them like there is for say, OSHA regulations.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,812

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDCar1 View Post
    Tell the Assistant Chief from NYS that went to jail for not following an NFPA Standard that it's just a "suggestion"! Far from a "suggestion", the NFPA Standards are consensus-based best practices that our performances are continually being measured against. And if that measurement is being made by a judge or jury, then a FD better have an OUTSTANDING explanation as to why their plan, policy, or procedure is so much better than the national consensus standard...
    Not to split hairs here, but there are no other laws on the books regarding burning of occupied structures for fire training so in lieu of any State or local laws, a national consensus standard could be used to to prosecute. I think it might be a little more difficult to prove this in a speeding apparatus case where state law specifically allows it (if it does?)

    Now of course varying specifically from this national consensus standard may not result in prosecution, but it certainly will open up the civil liability issue.

    So your response time goes from 25 minutes to 18 minutes? Now what's left that is a true emergency? The exposure or the exposure's exposure?

    Don't forget speed limits are set using stopping, cornering and other factors as sen in a passenger car, not a heavy vehicle with exempted drivers hopped up on adrenaline. Tell those people living in the hinterlands to start their own FD if they want a better response time instead of killing yourself or someone else getting there. The further you drive the more time you make up, but also the more civilians you expose to danger.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 12-01-2009 at 02:48 PM.

  13. #13
    Forum Member TNFF319's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Collierville, TN
    Posts
    628

    Default

    I thought some states had adopted NFPA into their states OSHA regs.

    A civil suit will bring up NFPA, and it will come back to phuck you over. NFPA is set up for safety, so disregarding them will look like negligence. Even if they are over safe and hinder our job performance.
    FF/Paramedic

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Not to split hairs here, but there are no other laws on the books regarding burning of occupied structures for fire training so in lieu of any State or local laws, a national consensus standard could be used to to prosecute. I think it might be a little more difficult to prove this in a speeding apparatus case where state law specifically allows it (if it does?)

    Now of course varying specifically from this national consensus standard may not result in prosecution, but it certainly will open up the civil liability issue.

    So your response time goes from 25 minutes to 18 minutes? Now what's left that is a true emergency? The exposure or the exposure's exposure?

    Don't forget speed limits are set using stopping, cornering and other factors as sen in a passenger car, not a heavy vehicle with exempted drivers hopped up on adrenaline. Tell those people living in the hinterlands to start their own FD if they want a better response time instead of killing yourself or someone else getting there. The further you drive the more time you make up, but also the more civilians you expose to danger.
    Actually, I believe NYS did pass a law that NFPA regulations must be followed when doing a training burn as a result of Lairdsville. I*n the case of speed limits the operator is allowed to break the laws as long as they do so with due regard.

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    I thought some states had adopted NFPA into their states OSHA regs.

    A civil suit will bring up NFPA, and it will come back to phuck you over. NFPA is set up for safety, so disregarding them will look like negligence. Even if they are over safe and hinder our job performance.
    Actually, some OSHA regs specifically point to NFP regulations, which means if you do not follow those regs you will be fined.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Upstate (Albany area), NY
    Posts
    422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    I'm well aware the consequences of NOT following NFPA standards if something should go wrong, but my statement was not false. NFPA standards are not law and there is no penalty for not following them like there is for say, OSHA regulations.
    I agree. Your statement is, in fact, correct. I was pointing out the frailty of it, for those that don't think to, or those that refuse to think it out to the next step. As much as I struggle with some of the NFPA regs, and I sometimes wonder what kind on a vacuum they were developed in, I still have to remember that it's the professional standard that my actions will be measured by, by a jury of my peers. And folks need to remember that they don't have to do anything wrong to be sued... It's just as costly in $$$ and stress to prove that you acted correctly as it is when you didn't act correctly.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Upstate (Albany area), NY
    Posts
    422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, I believe NYS did pass a law that NFPA regulations must be followed when doing a training burn as a result of Lairdsville. I*n the case of speed limits the operator is allowed to break the laws as long as they do so with due regard.
    Wrong again. They passed a law, entitled "Bradley's Law" (Bradley Golden was the recruit killed in that LODD) which states that a live victim cannot be used during live fire training. that's only one little part of NFPA 1403. However in the guilty finding, and in the sentencing, the judge cited non-compliance with NFPA 1403 as a part of the finding.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

  18. #18
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDCar1 View Post
    And folks need to remember that they don't have to do anything wrong to be sued... It's just as costly in $$$ and stress to prove that you acted correctly as it is when you didn't act correctly.
    Yes, and you can be sued even if you follow nfpa standards.

    We shouldn't be worrying (too much) about being sued.

    We should be worried about following policies, regulations and laws. Usually, if you operate within those confines you will be okay.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Plainsvol View Post
    Is there any way to get a waiver from NFPA standards over vehicle speed?
    Help me out...what does the NFPA standard say in regards to this?

  20. #20
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDCar1 View Post
    Tell the Assistant Chief from NYS that went to jail for not following an NFPA Standard that it's just a "suggestion"! Far from a "suggestion", the NFPA Standards are consensus-based best practices that our performances are continually being measured against. And if that measurement is being made by a judge or jury, then a FD better have an OUTSTANDING explanation as to why their plan, policy, or procedure is so much better than the national consensus standard...
    Not to nitpick, and I agree with you in principle; however, he was not convicted for "not following an NFPA standard".

    He was convicted of criminally negligent homicide, for his wreckless and criminal actions at a "controlled" burn. While it's true he did not follow nfpa standards, he also didn't follow good sense and do what someone in his position should have done.

    Again, it's nitpicking, but you seem to want to set the record straight, so we should keep it straight.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. new proposed NFPA1901-2008
    By firetruck101 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-28-2007, 09:01 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts