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  1. #21
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    Playing Devils advocate here...I think the handline is a "it depends" answer. Are you holding back fire as you escape or not.


  2. #22
    Forum Member TNFF319's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    Playing Devils advocate here...I think the handline is a "it depends" answer. Are you holding back fire as you escape or not.
    Take it if you must. I think the main thing that needs to be remembered is it is time to leave. Some people if told to keep the handline may want to slug it out and not bail. Discipline is key.
    FF/Paramedic

  3. #23
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    Default Emergency Evacuation and your tools

    First of all, your Lt. needs to understand that the hand tools that we carry are designed to get us into spaces , but more importantly, they are also designed to get us out of them too. The cost of replacing the tools is irrelevant. When you are evacuating a building, you may need your tools again to facilitiate forcing your way out if your primary and/or secondary means of egress become blocked or are now nonexistent. Depending on how deep we are into the building, we may need our tools to fight our way back to our primary or secondary point of ingress/egress. Also, once the building is evacuated, we still have a fire to fight and we may still need our tools for exterior ops.

  4. #24
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Take it if you must. I think the main thing that needs to be remembered is it is time to leave. Some people if told to keep the handline may want to slug it out and not bail. Discipline is key.
    Very true. I didn't acutally mean drag it all the way out with you, just protect the crew as you leave. Guess I didn't say it well. But I do know what you mean. There are some guys with more balls than brains.

  5. #25
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cb1221 View Post
    During a training exercise my partner and I where doing a primary search in a multi room burn building. We where located in a back room at the charley / delta side, at which time the emergency evacuation signal sounded. Both my partner and I began immediate evacuation, just 10 feet in front of us was a Lt., acting as operations. He saw we had a set of irons, he yelled out to us ďDonít worry about those **** tools, drop them and get the *&@ out of here!Ē I informed him I wasnít doing that, I looked at my partner and told him not to drop his tool. We continued out of the building. During our critiquing he brought this up with anger, he didnít understand why we where so concerned about these tools valued at less then $500.00? Your thoughts?...
    Just out of curiosity, what training agency is this guy with, what agency is he a firefighter with, and how old is he?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  6. #26
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    First of all, on my career job the basic equipment for EVERYONE getting off the rig includes a pick head axe stuffed in your gut belt. It is imperative that everyone carry that axe because it is part of our bailout kit.

    Secondly, I would question the experience and knowledge of any officer that tells me to dump my hand tools. I may need them to force my way out through doors or walls. I may need them to dig through debris. I may need them as part of a window bailout.

    Thirdly, yelling at or expressing anger towards firefighters/students is not professional or condusive to learning. I will tell you personally that if I am being yelled at I usually simply shut down and stop listening. That instructor would have been better off if he had been open to discussion and explained his side rather than yelling.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  7. #27
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    Keep them with you at all possible, you never know when you might need them to save your butt. Also, he shouldn't have flipped on you, maybe taking your opinion into consideration would've been a better approach?

  8. #28
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Keep the tools. They shouldn't be slowing you down, and by Gosh... you might need to use them to get out.

  9. #29
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    First of all, on my career job the basic equipment for EVERYONE getting off the rig includes a pick head axe stuffed in your gut belt. It is imperative that everyone carry that axe because it is part of our bailout kit.
    Anchor maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  10. #30
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    You should never enter a structure without at least two tools. One tool should have a hoseline, and the other tool should have a halligan and a hammer or axe.

    That way, when it's time to leave, one tool can give the other tool something with which to facilitate speedy egress!
    "I've met lots of volunteer firefighters, but I've never seen a volunteer fire!"
    - R. MacLeod, Alma VFD

  11. #31
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Anchor maybe?
    Yep. We punch a hole in the wall with the handle of the axe, slide our bail out rope over the handle and then slide the axe handle into the hole and wedge it between the inside wall and the sheathing. I would have never believed that would hold if I hadn't seen it for myself.

    I am blessed with a captain who is very much into RIT and save your own, as well as self rescue. We practice it on a company level more frequently than is required at a department level.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  12. #32
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yep. We punch a hole in the wall with the handle of the axe, slide our bail out rope over the handle and then slide the axe handle into the hole and wedge it between the inside wall and the sheathing. I would have never believed that would hold if I hadn't seen it for myself.

    I am blessed with a captain who is very much into RIT and save your own, as well as self rescue. We practice it on a company level more frequently than is required at a department level.
    Good deal. A lot of the things I have seen while doing FF Survival/RIT training I never would have thought would have worked before hand.
    Career Firefighter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  13. #33
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    Cool heads will prevail.A large part of our job is common sense.
    It's not that life is so short,it's cause you're dead for so long.

  14. #34
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    GET OUT! (In the safest way possible)

  15. #35
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireRescue61 View Post
    GET OUT! (In the safest way possible)
    DUH? But that wasn't the original posters issue.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  16. #36
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireRescue61 View Post
    GET OUT! (In the safest way possible)
    Well that is hopefully the intent, but given that the instructor told him to shed his tool, 'safe' may not be an option here. The word safe, given the scenario doesn't apply anymore. It is about survival.

    I understand using some methods to create fear, urgency, danger, etc... But most people do not respond positively to someone yelling in their face.

    I have a hard time understanding instructors that feel the need to change the rules or put their own spin on things. If the book had his name on it, then they would be famous for it. And since this guy teaches his students to disarm themselves before they go into a gunfight, I think he gets off making the training about him.

    He will be a short-timer, these guys never last. Most State Fire Schools ask the students to fill out a survey about the instructor and the method of teaching. When the guy gets alot of honest reviews, he will be retired.



    But in the final analysis... you are correct... just don't strip the team of the tools they might need to get out.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  17. #37
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    Default Never say never

    Quote Originally Posted by cb1221 View Post
    During a training exercise my partner and I where doing a primary search in a multi room burn building. We where located in a back room at the charley / delta side, at which time the emergency evacuation signal sounded. Both my partner and I began immediate evacuation, just 10 feet in front of us was a Lt., acting as operations. He saw we had a set of irons, he yelled out to us ďDonít worry about those **** tools, drop them and get the *&@ out of here!Ē I informed him I wasnít doing that, I looked at my partner and told him not to drop his tool. We continued out of the building. During our critiquing he brought this up with anger, he didnít understand why we where so concerned about these tools valued at less then $500.00? Your thoughts?...
    Never say never right? But I've been taught to never leave tools behind in case they are needed to get out. I've been taught the same with the knob, bring it out head first in case it's needed along the way. I was also questioned about that recently during a training evolution and explained my position. Now, if I'm ten feet inside and can clearly see an exit when I hear the evacuate signal I'm out without anything. If there is ANY chance I can get lost along the way I'm brining what i have with me. Never say never, always say maybe?

  18. #38
    Forum Member TNFF319's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    First of all, regarding the above comment, I would question this "Intructors" qualifications and training as an instructor. A good Instructor never, ever, gets visibly angry with students, ESPECIALLY in front of everyone else like in a critique situation. If I were in your shoes, I would have waited until after the critique had ended, taken him aside in a private setting, and advised him that he was out of line.

    ADDITIONALLY:

    In the course of having to make rapid exit from the fire building, what would have happened if you came across a locked door, or a boarded up window, etc etc etc etc............What if you needed to breach a wall to get out? What then? You can kick a hole through sheetrock, but you are not going to kick through a masonry wall. During the critique I would have (CALMLY) countered that I was not going to drop my tools under any circumstance where I could physically carry them.

    His angry reaction and his preference that you drop hand tools makes me think that he is either very young, and/or very inexperienced.
    Of course the OP will never post again, but my guess is this is inhouse training by a completly unqualified firefighter.


    Quote Originally Posted by bfd732 View Post
    Never say never right? Now, if I'm ten feet inside and can clearly see an exit when I hear the evacuate signal I'm out without anything. If there is ANY chance I can get lost along the way I'm brining what i have with me. Never say never, always say maybe?
    I agree with NEVER is not a firefighting word. However, why can't you carry your tool 10 feet. We should be in good enough shape to carry any tool 10 feet. I guess what I am trying to say is how are the tools really slowing you down? I understand the hose can hamper a quick escape, but our hands tools should not.
    Last edited by TNFF319; 12-17-2009 at 10:40 AM.
    FF/Paramedic

  19. #39
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    I agree with NEVER is not a firefighting word. However, why can't you carry your tool 10 feet. We should be in good enough shape to carry any tool 10 feet. I guess what I am trying to say is how are the tools really slowing you down? I understand the hose can hamper a quick escape, but our hands tools should not.
    In wildland firefighting they teach you to drop your packs and at some point even your tools if you have to run. The only thing you hang onto is your shelter.

    I wonder if a person with that sort of background was teaching the class?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  20. #40
    Forum Member TNFF319's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    In wildland firefighting they teach you to drop your packs and at some point even your tools if you have to run. The only thing you hang onto is your shelter.

    I wonder if a person with that sort of background was teaching the class?
    Im going to say no. I have been to quite a few of these "trainings." It ends up being someone looking in the book as much as the students. Then, they put their spin on it, which always ends up being wrong or just plain stupid.

    The wildland thing makes sense because you won't need them for egress.
    FF/Paramedic

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