1. #26
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    First of all, on my career job the basic equipment for EVERYONE getting off the rig includes a pick head axe stuffed in your gut belt. It is imperative that everyone carry that axe because it is part of our bailout kit.

    Secondly, I would question the experience and knowledge of any officer that tells me to dump my hand tools. I may need them to force my way out through doors or walls. I may need them to dig through debris. I may need them as part of a window bailout.

    Thirdly, yelling at or expressing anger towards firefighters/students is not professional or condusive to learning. I will tell you personally that if I am being yelled at I usually simply shut down and stop listening. That instructor would have been better off if he had been open to discussion and explained his side rather than yelling.
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    Keep them with you at all possible, you never know when you might need them to save your butt. Also, he shouldn't have flipped on you, maybe taking your opinion into consideration would've been a better approach?

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    Keep the tools. They shouldn't be slowing you down, and by Gosh... you might need to use them to get out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    First of all, on my career job the basic equipment for EVERYONE getting off the rig includes a pick head axe stuffed in your gut belt. It is imperative that everyone carry that axe because it is part of our bailout kit.
    Anchor maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    You should never enter a structure without at least two tools. One tool should have a hoseline, and the other tool should have a halligan and a hammer or axe.

    That way, when it's time to leave, one tool can give the other tool something with which to facilitate speedy egress!
    "I've met lots of volunteer firefighters, but I've never seen a volunteer fire!"
    - R. MacLeod, Alma VFD

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Anchor maybe?
    Yep. We punch a hole in the wall with the handle of the axe, slide our bail out rope over the handle and then slide the axe handle into the hole and wedge it between the inside wall and the sheathing. I would have never believed that would hold if I hadn't seen it for myself.

    I am blessed with a captain who is very much into RIT and save your own, as well as self rescue. We practice it on a company level more frequently than is required at a department level.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yep. We punch a hole in the wall with the handle of the axe, slide our bail out rope over the handle and then slide the axe handle into the hole and wedge it between the inside wall and the sheathing. I would have never believed that would hold if I hadn't seen it for myself.

    I am blessed with a captain who is very much into RIT and save your own, as well as self rescue. We practice it on a company level more frequently than is required at a department level.
    Good deal. A lot of the things I have seen while doing FF Survival/RIT training I never would have thought would have worked before hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Cool heads will prevail.A large part of our job is common sense.
    It's not that life is so short,it's cause you're dead for so long.

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    GET OUT! (In the safest way possible)

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireRescue61 View Post
    GET OUT! (In the safest way possible)
    DUH? But that wasn't the original posters issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireRescue61 View Post
    GET OUT! (In the safest way possible)
    Well that is hopefully the intent, but given that the instructor told him to shed his tool, 'safe' may not be an option here. The word safe, given the scenario doesn't apply anymore. It is about survival.

    I understand using some methods to create fear, urgency, danger, etc... But most people do not respond positively to someone yelling in their face.

    I have a hard time understanding instructors that feel the need to change the rules or put their own spin on things. If the book had his name on it, then they would be famous for it. And since this guy teaches his students to disarm themselves before they go into a gunfight, I think he gets off making the training about him.

    He will be a short-timer, these guys never last. Most State Fire Schools ask the students to fill out a survey about the instructor and the method of teaching. When the guy gets alot of honest reviews, he will be retired.



    But in the final analysis... you are correct... just don't strip the team of the tools they might need to get out.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Default Never say never

    Quote Originally Posted by cb1221 View Post
    During a training exercise my partner and I where doing a primary search in a multi room burn building. We where located in a back room at the charley / delta side, at which time the emergency evacuation signal sounded. Both my partner and I began immediate evacuation, just 10 feet in front of us was a Lt., acting as operations. He saw we had a set of irons, he yelled out to us “Don’t worry about those **** tools, drop them and get the *&@ out of here!” I informed him I wasn’t doing that, I looked at my partner and told him not to drop his tool. We continued out of the building. During our critiquing he brought this up with anger, he didn’t understand why we where so concerned about these tools valued at less then $500.00? Your thoughts?...
    Never say never right? But I've been taught to never leave tools behind in case they are needed to get out. I've been taught the same with the knob, bring it out head first in case it's needed along the way. I was also questioned about that recently during a training evolution and explained my position. Now, if I'm ten feet inside and can clearly see an exit when I hear the evacuate signal I'm out without anything. If there is ANY chance I can get lost along the way I'm brining what i have with me. Never say never, always say maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    First of all, regarding the above comment, I would question this "Intructors" qualifications and training as an instructor. A good Instructor never, ever, gets visibly angry with students, ESPECIALLY in front of everyone else like in a critique situation. If I were in your shoes, I would have waited until after the critique had ended, taken him aside in a private setting, and advised him that he was out of line.

    ADDITIONALLY:

    In the course of having to make rapid exit from the fire building, what would have happened if you came across a locked door, or a boarded up window, etc etc etc etc............What if you needed to breach a wall to get out? What then? You can kick a hole through sheetrock, but you are not going to kick through a masonry wall. During the critique I would have (CALMLY) countered that I was not going to drop my tools under any circumstance where I could physically carry them.

    His angry reaction and his preference that you drop hand tools makes me think that he is either very young, and/or very inexperienced.
    Of course the OP will never post again, but my guess is this is inhouse training by a completly unqualified firefighter.


    Quote Originally Posted by bfd732 View Post
    Never say never right? Now, if I'm ten feet inside and can clearly see an exit when I hear the evacuate signal I'm out without anything. If there is ANY chance I can get lost along the way I'm brining what i have with me. Never say never, always say maybe?
    I agree with NEVER is not a firefighting word. However, why can't you carry your tool 10 feet. We should be in good enough shape to carry any tool 10 feet. I guess what I am trying to say is how are the tools really slowing you down? I understand the hose can hamper a quick escape, but our hands tools should not.
    Last edited by TNFF319; 12-17-2009 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    I agree with NEVER is not a firefighting word. However, why can't you carry your tool 10 feet. We should be in good enough shape to carry any tool 10 feet. I guess what I am trying to say is how are the tools really slowing you down? I understand the hose can hamper a quick escape, but our hands tools should not.
    In wildland firefighting they teach you to drop your packs and at some point even your tools if you have to run. The only thing you hang onto is your shelter.

    I wonder if a person with that sort of background was teaching the class?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    In wildland firefighting they teach you to drop your packs and at some point even your tools if you have to run. The only thing you hang onto is your shelter.

    I wonder if a person with that sort of background was teaching the class?
    Im going to say no. I have been to quite a few of these "trainings." It ends up being someone looking in the book as much as the students. Then, they put their spin on it, which always ends up being wrong or just plain stupid.

    The wildland thing makes sense because you won't need them for egress.
    FF/Paramedic

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    I would say no never drop you tools. you might need it to get out. Also just because the evacuation signal has sounded does not mean you drop everything and run around like a chicken with your head cut off. if anything when the evac tones sound you need to think and use your head even more. Time to leave yes. however think of what you are doing. Are you on a hoseline protecting the stairs with guys searching above the fire. Are you attcking the fire with guys searching past the fire room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Im going to say no. I have been to quite a few of these "trainings." It ends up being someone looking in the book as much as the students. Then, they put their spin on it, which always ends up being wrong or just plain stupid.

    The wildland thing makes sense because you won't need them for egress.
    Well, actually.. You do need your tool to create a deployment area for your shelter. But if it's slowing you down, drop it.

    However, too often they find guys within a few feet of a chainsaw.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    I have come back to this topic several times and started to post another response and each time thought better about it. But now I am ready to say what I have to say, so here goes.

    1) I think this instructor/Lieutenant acted incredibly unprofessional. I believe he chose anger over being questioned or challenged versus an opportunity to explain why he believed dropping the tools was the right choice.

    2) There were 2 tacts the firefighter could have taken one of compliance. Yes sir, I will drop my tools because you say so. (whether, you plan to actually comply or not.) Or the other of questioning why and without a good solid explanation, defiance of that order.

    Frankly, if I couldn't get a valid explanation for his viewpoint I would ignore his order and keep my tools with me. Insubordination? Perhaps. But just because someone is an officer doesn't mean they know a damn thing other than how to get to be an officer. The anger at being questioned seems to indicate that the officer has no solid reasoning for his point of view.
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    Fyred: I agree completely, especially since the officer or person in question was an instructor. Any decent instructor would have said drop the tools because....insert reasoning here.

    Good instructors welcome discussion in the classroom or in an after drill critique. You can learn more from those discussions than from the drill or training evolution itself.

    It doesn't appear the the original poster has come back. I would be interested to see if the OP ever got a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yep. We punch a hole in the wall with the handle of the axe, slide our bail out rope over the handle and then slide the axe handle into the hole and wedge it between the inside wall and the sheathing. I would have never believed that would hold if I hadn't seen it for myself.
    Do you have a picture of this? I'm having a hard time visualizing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Do you have a picture of this? I'm having a hard time visualizing it.
    Try picturing the studs and the axe making an H-shape. The studs being the I I parts and the axe being the - part.

    Unless Fyred is talking about a different way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Do you have a picture of this? I'm having a hard time visualizing it.
    This YouTube video explains it and shows the technique.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZoXFsqk_uM

    By the way, NO, that is not me.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-25-2009 at 12:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    This YouTube video explains it and shows the technique.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZoXFsqk_uM

    By the way, NO, that is not me.
    Great video. Thanks for the link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cb1221 View Post
    During a training exercise my partner and I where doing a primary search in a multi room burn building. We where located in a back room at the charley / delta side, at which time the emergency evacuation signal sounded. Both my partner and I began immediate evacuation, just 10 feet in front of us was a Lt., acting as operations. He saw we had a set of irons, he yelled out to us “Don’t worry about those **** tools, drop them and get the *&@ out of here!” I informed him I wasn’t doing that, I looked at my partner and told him not to drop his tool. We continued out of the building. During our critiquing he brought this up with anger, he didn’t understand why we where so concerned about these tools valued at less then $500.00? Your thoughts?...
    I'd have to say you did the right thing, i mean what if the closest exit is a window and you just dropped your tool..... I'm still a probie on my department but IMO my tool is my best friend and my second life line....

    At the same time saying this I realized that if you were using a halagen bar or axe which is heavier u might want to leave it, i always go in with a 5-6'closet hook as my tool, light weight, highly versitile and and extended reach in searches too IMO THE BEST tool ever.
    Last edited by FireEMT712; 01-05-2010 at 06:00 PM.

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    not to pick on you, but if you are dropping a halligan or axe because it is "heavy" you may have picked the wrong profession.

    I could see if I have a hook and an axe, I might just ditch the hook. I've never seen a 6ft closet hook, thats just a plain old hook. A closet hook is only 3ft, about the length of an axe.
    Last edited by nameless; 01-06-2010 at 12:17 AM.

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