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  1. #26
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    Like the line choice off of that truck along with the water and LDH. Do you think they were able to do it with a rear mount because it is taller? Not sure if you could do that with a mid mount. I hate the hose beds on rear mounts.
    While I find this intriguing it is getting farther away from a standard ladder and closer to the combination rigs I'm not so fond of. But I still find it intriguing.
    Train like you want to fight.
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  2. #27
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    Here is another link for the same rig.

    http://www.pafirefighter.net/Combos/E241.asp

  3. #28
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    After taking a bunch of measurements in town with a range finder, it has become pretty obvious that the length of the ladder doesn't really effect how high you can reach. It mostly effects how far you can reach horizontally. For example, a 77' can reach the top of a 72' high building but only if the turn table is 18' from the building. If the turn table is 50 feet from the building, it can reach up 55'. At 60' away it can up reach only 36' up. Conversly, a 100' ladder can reach 98' up at 18' away, 86' up at 50' away, 80' up at 60' away and 36' up at 93 feet away.

    So, with both ladders, we can still reach the roof of all buildings in town. But with the 75' you have got to be much closer to the building than with the 100'. I guess, the shorter the ladder, the better placed it has to be?

    Is that an argument for a bigger ladder, or a first due 75 that is well placed?

  4. #29
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    Glad to see you are doing your homework. Keep track of it because it will be important to show those holding the purse strings that you aren't just choosing something because you think it would be right or pretty or whatever. You are trying to make the best decision for the department and the community is serves.

    For the sake of discussion I will argue the side for a longer ladder. Your research did show one thing that many people overlook, ladders aren't just for up, going out uses ladder length as well. People often wonder why we run an ladder to a single family dwelling and once we explain they admit to never thinking about reach vs. height. Did your measurements include leaving room for outrigger spread? Is there a possibility that vehicles, snow or other obstructions would be in the way keeping you from getting the ideal spot even as first due? Did you look for potential threats such as manhole's, power lines, etc that could threaten ladder operation from your "ideal" spot? Most times you want to set up at the corner to reach two sides of the building, would a 75' work? If you determine that a 75' aerial will work for the buildings you have, what will happen in 5-15 years when a new building is built either taller or farther set back than the one's you have now? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe ISO requires 80' for credit, or for maximum credit, as a ladder. Not everyone follows ISO, and I can understand why, but it may be a factor for you community in attracting new business if you chose to do an ISO review down the road. If possible I'm still in favor of spending more (even if you have to wait a year or two) now instead of regretting the decision of spending less for 20 years.

    Who has the counter argument?
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  5. #30
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    Default My 2 cents..

    If you are running only a engine and a quint, quint should be 1st in.

    Have a neighboring department that runs a engine and a quint (55' ) (6 man shift). The engine goes in first and the quint lays a supply line in. Auto aid from 15 miles away will bring in another ldh supply line if the quint's arial is going to be used (or hand lay ldh back off the engine). When recall crews get in they also have a 85' AP.

    Problem with quint laying hose - you get to know the water dept guys pretty good because you pull their hydrants out of the ground as the hose ties to feed around the turntable (Pierce rear mount).

  6. #31
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    Ok I know this is a crazy idea. Why not price out a used late model 100' quint. On that's under say 5 or 10 years old. IF the town won't give you the money for new 100' it might be a last ditch solution.

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    Here is a way you can take some of the guess work out the process.

    Contact ISO and find out from them how long of an aerial they say that you need. If there is some planned new construction or there has been much construction since your last ISO evaluation ask them back and have them tell you how tall of a ladder you need. If they say a 75' will work, great. If on the other hand they say you need 85' + than look at a larger vehicle. That will help you make the decision on 1st vs. 2nd due since a larger vehicle will make it more difficult to use as a first due.

    Take the issue of how much water it carries out of the equation. Pumpers, Hose, Hydrants, and Water Tenders are for water supply, not a ladder or quint. Fist and foremost is that you have the compartment space for a proper ground ladder compliment (usually ISO) and all of the tools you will need (At least ISO) The tools and ground ladders on the vehicle will be used 10 times for every 1 time you use the aerial ladder.

    Do not buy a new quint/ladder. Go buy an inexpensive good used one, and use the heck out of it. Get used to it, learn the ladder company operations side of the foreground. You will quickly learn things you could never learn from these forums.

    When you do start the specification process for a new ladder, do it with the mindset of using it for 25+. That means building it tough as hell and "flexible" for future needs. Using a ladder for 25+ years front-line is never ideal or even advised. But being realistic if the economy takes another dive in 15 or 20 years when you would have normally chosen to replace it you may have no options. Your children and grandchildren will thank you for your foresight.

    For some more good insight, listen to the podcast under the media tab. Apparatus Architects has done a few on ladder company operations and quint vs. ladder and 1st vs 2nd due considerations.

  8. #33
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    just make sure if you do buy a used quint or laddder truck you check it over very good. It might be more costly in the long run, for repairs and maintence. Have a real fire truck mechanic look over it (not the sellers mechanic). take the time to look through all the maintence records. operate all the systems etc. My suggestion is if it has structural damage that has been repaired i.e. broken torque boxes, repaired frame rails steer clear of it.

    lastly if it has been put in the power lines at some point steer clear too. I am willing to bet the electrical system has gremlins in it.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Short and Sweet.

    Let the quint be second due and do truck work. Why buy a ladder truck and not make it do truck work?
    There is a prime reason in your request and it is also covered in another thread, experience. Along with experience comes understanding of staffing levels of departments and whatnot before even having to ask a question of that nature. For instance, at my career fd at station 2 the first out piece is a quint, it is both engine company and ladder company all in one. This is nothing new, ask St. Louis and Chattanooga. As I recall Collierville is very remote area south east of Memphis, doubt it is quite on your needs list due to your construction the last time I was there.

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    Thanks everyone for the help.

    We just recieved our new 77' Ferara quint. 1500 gpm pump, 400 gallon tank. It will be our first due.

  11. #36
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    Congrats. Now pics of it loaded up, and ready to roll.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  12. #37
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    Default ISO Slayer

    In the original posts there was mention of several 5 story buildings... Using a 5 story building with the setbacks that ISO will require, they will determine that a 100' aerial is required for this community. I have worked with numerous ISO guys who have required the 75' people to "Set up" where he has asked them to. Once in place they have found that the building the ISO guy picked out, along with his location for operations, and the aerial device will not reach where you need it to. The differences between a 100' and a 75' go on for days... But in the ISO world a 75' stick will get you 75% credit of 5 possible points in ladder/service credit and 75% credit of 4 points possible for distribution and 75% credit of 1 point possible for reserve ladder/service, or 75% credit of a possible 10 points in the ISO grading schedule..... That is EVERYTHING is perfect....

    As far as using the quint for an engine, or for a truck, or for a parade vehicle... This really depends on the area you work in, each concept works well if applied correctly. ISO will give full credit for an engine and 1/2 credit for a ladder company, or, full credit for a truck and 1/2 credit for an engine for each quint type apparatus. This all depends on your use of the vehicle... and what you "ask" for.

    For full credit from ISO for apparatus in this community (More than likely it is a 3,500 gpm NFF community) they will need to respond 2 engines and 1 truck on each structure fire... NFPA 1710 also spells out requirements for responses to structure fires and what each person is to do. And then of course there is what I preach every day.... "YOUR WORLD, REAL WORLD". I promise you that firefighting operations in Fairbanks Alaska is a TINY bit different than Springfiled, Ill.

    As far as apparatus goes we can go all over the board on who has the best, what design is the best, this one is junk, that one is best.... Most of the apparatus built today does rather well. I have been involved with departments that spent over a million dollars on a quint all the way down to one that spent $475,000 on a quint... Both do the same basic stuff. If you want to look into one that gives you lots of options for ISO check out this unit.... http://www.hmeahrensfox.com/Arsenal.asp and no, I do not receive anything from HME... Nor do I care to.

    ISO Slayer

  13. #38
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    does anyone care about portable ladders and saws?



    build a "quint" truck if you need it or must, but please do not skimp on the ladders. you will use them way more than the aerial. also committ space for a full compliment of saws, hooks, and other wrecking tools. when you do that a single axel 75' fully functioning engine/quint/truck is overly cramped.



    in a related story i was becoming a first time home owner years ago, my family said i should spec and do a blue print for constructing my first home. In retrospect, i am glad that i did not build my first residence bc i did not have a good grasp on use of space at the home. I would have screwed alot of basic things up. i would like you to have a functioning truck/quint but maybe looking at used piece for 10 years and then doing full blown truck spec process maybe better.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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