Quint first or second due?

I am part of a small paid on call department considering a new Quint apparatus. This will be our first aerial apparatus. Our department has operated for the past million years with two engines, and one tanker truck. We protect about 9000 residents and have a downtown district with many four and five story buildings. We also protect many large apartment buildings that are three to five stories. We have three neighboring towns with 100’ ladder trucks about 5,10 and 15 miles from our downtown. About half of the residential town is newer construction with setbacks averaging 30-100’. The Quint would replace one of our engines and due to budget constraints, we would probably only be able to afford a 75’.

My number one concern is if this truck should or should not be first due? I am concerned about the reach and constraints of the 75’ and with the average setback of a house being 50’, I’m told a 75’ stick is rendered useless unless its parked right in the driveway within 30’ of the house. Most of the advise I have read on this forum is to either run the Quint second due as a truck company or run it first due - but the first arriving company parks it for ladder placement and then behaves as an engine company leaving ladder operation and truck company ops to the second or third due crews. My concern is that if the truck is second due, it will not have the reach with only 75’ unless it has the optimal placement flexibility of being first due. Also, our second truck is usually tied up with water supply, putting the Quint at the hydrant and not setup for ladder placement. How have other small departments handled these issues?

The questions you bring up are why I'm not much a fan of quints. That being said, unless most of your homes are far from the street with narrow drives, I like the second due concept. This allows the unit to be placed for aerial ops. If the first due engine finds they need the aerial around back between the exposure and the fire building, it's easy. If the quint pulls up first the officer needs to make the placement decision right with just the street views, as once the crew starts the line, its over. Or you could run it first due as a truck as long as you can count on the second due engine being close behind? Not as likely in most POC cases. In my narrow mind, an aerial should never be anchored by an attack line. Aerials are far fewer and further between in most cases to waste a set, if it can't be immediately spotted where needed, it should be placed so that it can move into multiple positions as required. All of this is based on limited aerials being available. If you have more available in short order, first due can work.

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Originally Posted by billbarr100

My concern is that if the truck is second due, it will not have the reach with only 75’ unless it has the optimal placement flexibility of being first due. Also, our second truck is usually tied up with water supply, putting the Quint at the hydrant and not setup for ladder placement. How have other small departments handled these issues?

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Prolly should have absorbed this a little more before I spouted off. OK, as long as the first due engine allows room for the quint, it should get the optimal placement anyway. This requires the first due engine to go beyond the building in most cases allowing the truck the front or driveway. Of course as I said above, a long driveway or narrow dirt lane in rural America doesn't allow for this. If that describes the majority of your district you'll like have to run the quint in first and suffer with what you find.

If you normally have the second due hit the hydrant and bring the supply, with no other engines coming soon, you may need to run the quint first. Just know that the minute you commit the quint to stretching the first line, it loses effectiveness as the first due aerial. If you need to adjust the position of the quint, you need to wait to make the stretch. If you stretch the line, the aerial is stuck. Of course if you need a 100 foot aerial, which it sounds like you do, a 75 footer will not do. I'd rather wait another year to get a 100 ft. truck than suffer 12-20 years with an inadequate stick.

I know it's a bit different, but my career department runs three quints and two engines out of our five stations. All three quints are 75'.

If you're going to be buying a quint (or any aerial for that matter) for the first time, you're going to have to make adjustments to how you operate. Included in this is what you're already looking at, whether to run it first out or not.

My personal opinion would be to run it first-due. The nice thing about a quint is that it's operable as both an engine or an aerial. If you get to a scene and can't deploy the aerial because it's too far of a set-back, then you use it as an engine and pull the ladders off of it. If you can use the aerial, then it's there and ready. The problem you get into here is if you've got a defensive situation, as it's not recommended to pump both the aerial and handlines (but, it can be done when needed).

Also, keep in mind that just because you have a set-back too far to use your aerial for above-ground access doesn't mean it's not useful. You still have the ability to use the aerial master stream for defensive posture or exposure protection. You should also have more of a ladder compliment than you do with your engines (we carry 2x 35', 1x24', 2x 16' roof, 1x 12-14' roof on the stick, 1x 10' folding, 1x a-frame or 14' extension on our quints).

I don't know who told you that a 75' stick is useless unless it's within 30', but that's bunk. We have a lot of set-backs like you describe and still use ours. There have been times we've positioned on in a driveway out of necessity, but that's rare. One thing you'll want to find out when you start looking is the horizontal reach. They should still have around 60-65' of horizontal reach.

One of the downfalls of running it second due, particularly with your set-backs and a 75-footer is going to be getting your engineers to remember to leave room at the front (or wherever's appropriate) of the structure for the quint. We still have a learning curve for new drivers to pull past and leave room for the stick, even though we've had quints for almost 10 years. If your second-due is usually tied up at the hydrant, than you've eliminated any use of the aerial and may have just knocked out any of the truck company aspects of the truck (ladder compliment, tools/equipment, etc).

Short and Sweet.

Let the quint be second due and do truck work. Why buy a ladder truck and not make it do truck work?

First due piece.

On any Quint you should try to get the turn table as close to the building as much as possible. This gives better reach than trying to run a 75 foot serial from the rear over the cab, losing some length of the stick.

In necessary back the truck to the building this give you great positioning.

With conventional operations, Engine and Trucks, remember the front of any fire building always belongs to the TRUCK. One can pull hose lines but no one can pull the aerial to the building.

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Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer

First due piece.

With conventional operations, Engine and Trucks, remember the front of any fire building always belongs to the TRUCK. One can pull hose lines but no one can pull the aerial to the building.

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Why not let the engine be an engine and have the quint be a truck? An engine is better equiped to handle engine work because of its design and equipment carried. The only plus I see of having a quint over a regular ladder truck is it can fight rubbish and car fires without an engine. I think you will end up overloading the quint with equipment so it can be dual role. Proper laddering can be accomplished if the engine has discipline. They must leave room for the truck to postion itself. Just my feeling and that is the way I'd do it.

I have a question for the OP. Are you planning on using the main stick to ladder every fire?

I suppose so as it is the safest way to vertically ventilate and very effective for defensive exterior operations with the elevated stream.

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Originally Posted by billbarr100

I suppose so as it is the safest way to vertically ventilate and very effective for defensive exterior operations with the elevated stream.

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That really doesn't change much, but I was curious. The truck gets the address whether or not the stick is going into operation. As stated above, you can strech more hose but not more ladder. I am a fan of ground ladders, but to each his own.

I found this older post:

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/arch...p/t-50918.html

The above post suggests that the best way to handle my departments situation is to make the quint first due, park it for ladder placement and have the quint personel be fire attack leaving the operation of the ladder to second or third arriving crews.

Also, this article suggests somthing similar but putting the focus on the first in company making the decision of how the crew will operate depending on the conditions:

http://www.firenuggets.com/x_ARDSIll...c2000index.htm
http://community.fireengineering.com...ATopic%3A91706


These threads seem to suggest that the way to handle a quint is to bring it to the scene, but plan on assigning two crews to it if it will perform two functions, since it does both, it needs 8 people to do both jobs.

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t30715/
http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t67821/

What I'm getting is that you cannot treat a quint like both a ladder and an engine. It is either a ladder or an engine, but it can be a ladder to one crew on the fire ground and an engine to another crew at the same time. The mistake comes in when you try to have one crew do both jobs. However, this still doesn't fully answer when it should show up, first or second or third. I guess that depends on the department.

Keeping in mind that my department usually treats the second engine as water supply to the first engine, the quint cannot function as a dual role when it is assigned to water supply. The space infront of the hydrant is not usually the best place to spot a ladder.

If the truck is third due with water supply already setup, building access is probably limited unless the arriving DOs and officers were really thinking. With the limited reach of a 75', there may not be a good place left to spot the ladder. Not to mention, limited staffing has prevented us from being able to bring all three trucks out on multiple events. We are lucky to get one out the door with a full crew sometimes.

I'm still trying to find the negatives to the quint being first due, other than 500 gallons of water.

Please let me know if I'm way off the mark here...

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Originally Posted by TNFF319

Why not let the engine be an engine and have the quint be a truck? An engine is better equiped to handle engine work because of its design and equipment carried. The only plus I see of having a quint over a regular ladder truck is it can fight rubbish and car fires without an engine. I think you will end up overloading the quint with equipment so it can be dual role. Proper laddering can be accomplished if the engine has discipline. They must leave room for the truck to postion itself. Just my feeling and that is the way I'd do it.

I have a question for the OP. Are you planning on using the main stick to ladder every fire?

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While I don't disagree with engines being engines, trucks being trucks, there are times where it's not feasible. Hence the quint concept. You can maxmimize limited personnel (which I assume is the case if they're volunteer) and increase the capabilities of apparatus.

Like I mentioned, my career department runs three quints. None of them are overloaded with equipment (at least not in my opinion) and we can run them as a truck or an engine company. The thing is, we train on how to do this and have learned a number of lessons while in the learning curve (and still learning).

While specializing is a good thing, each guy learning how to do engine and truck company ops so that they can function in either regard is possible, and can work to a department's benefit if they don't have the manpower or budget for engine and truck companies.

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Originally Posted by billbarr100

I'm still trying to find the negatives to the quint being first due, other than 500 gallons of water.

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After reading the responses one more time, I have the cons of quint first due for the small volly squad to be:

Less flexibility to move the truck after a line is pulled if the truck wasn’t parked for aerial operations properly on the initial assessment. – This seems to be less of a problem if more aerials are available in short order.

Vehicle positioning may be rushed on initial arrival and render the aerial ineffective.

Limited tank size (500 vs 1000 gallons in "standard" engine).

Less space for “engine company equipment”

Cross training challenges – not an issue on a volley squad as everyone has to take all roles anyway.

Two more threads that seems to back this up. Sorry that i'm in the dead horse zone...i guess

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t75416/
http://www.firehouse.com/forums/arch...p/t-45446.html

I think the quint should be first due. Position as you said for laddder operations. have the inital crew proform engine work, unless obvious rescues are need. Then have your 2nd crew work as a truck company using the quint. Does you 2nd crew usually arrive on a fire truck or are they POVs? I would put my 3rd arriving on the hydrant. In this case an engine on the hydrant. This would enable me the ablity to relay pump to the quint if ladder pipe operations are required. this would allow for me to gain increased flow compared to not having a piece on the hydrant.

As for the 500 gallon tank. Foward lay in make the hydrant conection with a humat valve. put the 3rd due in at the hydrant. Have the 2nd due take a 2nd hydrant and lay in for a secoundary water supply.

I would have:
1st due fire attack
2nd due truck work. take a 2nd hydrant
3rd due relay pump to the quint on the hydrant. crew pulls a back up line or streatch to the floor above.
4th due RIT

You can always stretch more hose, but you're going to have a tough time stretching that ladder. Get it close the first time.

We run both a 80' rear mount stick and a 95' mid mount platform (quints each) second due. Which one you get depends on which station is second due. As second due they usually lay LDH on the way in if we don't have a second engine right behind the first. We have one duty driver at both stations 24/7 with the manpower being volunteers. Our department has had at least one aerial for 29 years but due to the views of previous chief's the ladder was only for the "big fires", (entirely different discussion). As a result we have only started running them routinely in the last 5 years or so.

First, I would rather load LDH on an engine instead of a ladder any day. Second it is very true that you can always stretch the hose but not the ladder.

We have had calls where the engine parked in the ideal truck spot because of habits developed when we didn't run the ladder to every structure call. We have also had calls where everything worked great. One of the keys is the truck prompting the engine en route to advise the best way to approach. This does two things. It reminds the engine to share the street and helps the truck get a better spot. Does it work every time? No but it's a start.

With how our department operates I would like to see the truck first due because members respond to scene and it's not a manpower issue for us. I can also see the other side of the coin.

Two final thoughts for your situation. First, before you commit to a 75' ask one of your mutual aid departments to bring their 100' over and play around with it. Preplan your stops and maybe have the city council present as well. Show them what a 75' would do and what a 100' does, especially on scrub area. It will show that you are doing your homework regarding this purchase and will either show them a 75' would work or that it doesn't. Second, try it both ways when you get the truck and see what works for you.

Good luck.

Yes. 100' would be more effective for aerial ops. But would it be worse as a first due engine? What do you think about this post from another forum:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=30023

"Reality*is*the*most*important *factor*to*consider*when*purch asing*a*quint.**A*75ft*single* axle*quint*is*an*engine*with*a n*aerial*device.*They*should*b e*labled*as*engines*in*the*CAD *as*well...*Yup..*Ladder*47,*5 0,*10,*52....*should*all*be*ru nning*as*engines.**A*100ft*tan dem*axle*quint*is*a*truck*with *a*pump,*tank,*hose....*It's*n ever*going*to*be*a*driveway*pi ece.**Where*departments*make*H UGE*mistakes*is*when*they*kid* themselves*(exit*reality)*and* think*that*a*100ft*quint*on*ta ndems*will*replace*an*engine,* OR*a*75ft*quint*on*a*single*wi ll*replace*a*truck.**I*cant*st ress*it*enough...*reality*is*t he*most*important*factor*when* considering*the*purchase*of*a* quint.*Basic*rule*of*thumb...* 75footers*run*as*engines*100fo oters*run*as*trucks*and*there* isn't*much*room*between."

I think that post makes a very valid point that a lot of people over look. While I'm not sure I agree with their views as stated on 75' vs 100' quints I do agree that any time you attempt to make a combination apparatus (tanker/pumper, rescue/engine, quint, etc) you have positives and negatives. Each department has to evaluate the pro's and con's and determine what will work best for THEIR department. You are gaining some capabilities but losing others. Will that work for you? A quint will gain you an aerial device combined with a pump and some hose. Both ours have 200' 1 3/4" attack, LDH, 3" and 300 gallon tank. For how we operate that works. They meet the definition of a quint (ISO) but we view them as ladders and use them accordingly. I can tell you I have been the first to arrive on the ladder and glad I had the capabilities to begin an attack.

Regarding the other forum, I don't see why a 75' quint would run as an engine and a 100' as a truck. How they are labeled is irrelevant.

Went to the Sutphen and Ferrara websites to do a little research. Picked them because I knew that they both listed dimensions of their apparatus on the websites. It was also a bonus that Sutphen is mid mount and while Ferrara makes both I looked at their rear mounts for the purpose of cussing' and discussing'. How you spec your engines (custom vs commercial, top vs. side panel, bumper extension, etc) will affect their length. For the sake of discussion let us assume that an engine is 33' in length.

Ferrara's HD-77 stick is 37'6" while Sutphen's SL-75 is 38'7". This is 4-5' longer than the engine used for discussion.
Ferrara's LP-102 stick is 41'6" while Sutphen's SPH100 is 45'9". This is 8-12' longer than the engine used for discussion. The SPH100 is a platform but is shorter in length than their comparable apparatus.

The turning radius in todays apparatus makes maneuverability a lot better over trucks that are 5 to 10 years old. Length does matter in the station and on turns but it's just one more thing you have to look at. Our 95' is definitely longer than an engine but I have no problem running it you just have to pay more attention to what you are doing. It all goes back to what you want to do with this apparatus and how you intend to run it.

Now I'll stir the pot a little bit. Are you looking at a stick or a platform? Rear mount or mid mount? Maybe these are things you haven't gotten to yet. I know there have been lots of post about this. I also know you have to look at cost just like everyone else but as others have said, chose wisely. Do your research, show the powers that be you have done your research and remember the apparatus you get now will be the one you have for the next 20 years.

Let me know what you think,
Walt

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Originally Posted by billbarr100

I found this older post:

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/arch...p/t-50918.html

The above post suggests that the best way to handle my departments situation is to make the quint first due, park it for ladder placement and have the quint personel be fire attack leaving the operation of the ladder to second or third arriving crews.


Keeping in mind that my department usually treats the second engine as water supply to the first engine, the quint cannot function as a dual role when it is assigned to water supply. The space infront of the hydrant is not usually the best place to spot a ladder.

If the truck is third due with water supply already setup, building access is probably limited unless the arriving DOs and officers were really thinking. With the limited reach of a 75', there may not be a good place left to spot the ladder. Not to mention, limited staffing has prevented us from being able to bring all three trucks out on multiple events. We are lucky to get one out the door with a full crew sometimes.

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I think you have probably answered your own question along the way here. The third unit doesn't always get out. The second unit does water supply in a fashion that sounds like it keeps it away from the fire building, thus eliminating the ability to use an aerial from that position. So, to me that sounds like running it out first is the only conclusion.

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I'm still trying to find the negatives to the quint being first due, other than 500 gallons of water.

Please let me know if I'm way off the mark here...

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A lot of FDs put out a lot of fires with 500 gallons of water or less. So, I'm not too sure that's truly a "negative" unless you have water issues and pumpers normally carry much more than that.

Hasn't anyone on here seen a 500 gallon engine? Isn't that the standard for cities?
Plus I've seen quints with 1,000+ water tanks...