Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28
  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    12

    Default How would you establish water supply? rural fire...

    500 foot driveway, 3 miles from town, appx 10 y/o split level house with fire showing along D side on D-1

    trying to get better ideas on establishing a water supply, and NOT backing tankers up the driveway which is what we cant seem to figure out...
    and I realize that our hose loads are "less than desirable" to put it nicely... and now your in my position and have to "make it work"

    first due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    supply line=
    350 ft of ldh
    600 ft of 3inch


    second due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    third due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    fourth due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    300ft ldh
    300 ft 3inch
    and about 700 ft 3 inch on donut rolls on top of the ldh

    i personally think our trucks were setup by a monkey, so... do what you can with that... and then i would appreciate insight on how to make changes to the trucks keeping in mind that they will always show up in that order


  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Wow sounds like a bad deal I wish I could give you more input but I do wish you luck with the trucks.
    Become Firefighter

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabrielb View Post
    500 foot driveway, 3 miles from town, appx 10 y/o split level house with fire showing along D side on D-1

    trying to get better ideas on establishing a water supply, and NOT backing tankers up the driveway which is what we cant seem to figure out...
    and I realize that our hose loads are "less than desirable" to put it nicely... and now your in my position and have to "make it work"

    first due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    supply line=
    350 ft of ldh
    600 ft of 3inch


    second due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    third due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    fourth due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    300ft ldh
    300 ft 3inch
    and about 700 ft 3 inch on donut rolls on top of the ldh

    i personally think our trucks were setup by a monkey, so... do what you can with that... and then i would appreciate insight on how to make changes to the trucks keeping in mind that they will always show up in that order
    In your scenario you're backing trucks down the driveway. It doesn't sound like you're at all set up for the realities your face.

    All of our engines and tenders carry at least 1000 feet of 4" supply line. If you know it's a long driveway (different colors on the map represent different driveway lengths) you better be dropping your supply at the main road!

  4. #4
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,847

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabrielb View Post
    500 foot driveway, 3 miles from town, appx 10 y/o split level house with fire showing along D side on D-1

    trying to get better ideas on establishing a water supply, and NOT backing tankers up the driveway which is what we cant seem to figure out...
    and I realize that our hose loads are "less than desirable" to put it nicely... and now your in my position and have to "make it work"

    first due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    supply line=
    350 ft of ldh
    600 ft of 3inch


    second due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    third due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    fourth due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    300ft ldh
    300 ft 3inch
    and about 700 ft 3 inch on donut rolls on top of the ldh

    i personally think our trucks were setup by a monkey, so... do what you can with that... and then i would appreciate insight on how to make changes to the trucks keeping in mind that they will always show up in that order
    Okay, here are my recomendations.

    1) Change the order of response to first and second due engines going before the tenders. Why? The first due lays up the driveway and the second due hooks to the supply line and you have 2000 gallons while the foldatanks are being set up and water dumped. This scenario is why I am a huge fan of tankers having at least 1000 gpm pumps. They could do initial supply right into the supply hose while the second engine is setting up to draft from the foldatanks.

    2) Either put all the LDH on the first due, or 1200 feet of 3 inch on the first due and all the LDH on the second due. Why? So the first due has enough hose to lay up the driveway for the second due to pump into. Two 3 inch lines should be adequate for most rural hitches. That hose being rolled and on top of the LDH is just well, um, is just (insert politically incorrect obscene comment here) not good. Too slow to deploy and it blocks rapid deployment of the LDH.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  5. #5
    Savage / Hyneman 08'
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay, here are my recomendations.

    1) Change the order of response to first and second due engines going before the tenders. Why? The first due lays up the driveway and the second due hooks to the supply line and you have 2000 gallons while the foldatanks are being set up and water dumped. This scenario is why I am a huge fan of tankers having at least 1000 gpm pumps. They could do initial supply right into the supply hose while the second engine is setting up to draft from the foldatanks.

    2) Either put all the LDH on the first due, or 1200 feet of 3 inch on the first due and all the LDH on the second due. Why? So the first due has enough hose to lay up the driveway for the second due to pump into. Two 3 inch lines should be adequate for most rural hitches. That hose being rolled and on top of the LDH is just well, um, is just (insert politically incorrect obscene comment here) not good. Too slow to deploy and it blocks rapid deployment of the LDH.
    What he said.

    We have a similar setup. If needed, the first engine drops the LDH at the road, lays out to the scene. The second engine supplies, drafting from porta-tank.

    Our second engine is a 1500/2500 pumper / tanker so if it isn't needed as an engine, it assumes tanker duty.

    Both engines have 800ft of 5" LDH, but we have a few long driveways where the first engine will have to drop LDH half way up, the second due has to back in and connect to the LDH and lay back out to the road. It takes a minute but this way only one engine has to back in and then out, not a whole bunch of tankers. ( tenders )

    How far out is your fourth due, the second engine? It may work to lay into the fire, keeping the supply line at the side of the drive, allowing tanker access. First engine is supplied by drop tank. When the second engine arrives connect to the supply line at the road and relay to the fire, tankers now dump out at the road.

    Just depends on your situation I guess. Planning ahead for that second engine to show up late, but still leave supply line in place to accomplish a relay upon it's arrival may work if it's planned.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    110

    Default

    First due on all structure fires gets a response of two engines (1-2000gpm/1000, 1-1250gpm/1000) both engines carry 1800 feet of 5", two tankers (1-500gpm/2000, 1- 500gpm/2200) with automatic aid bringing two additional pumper tankers (1-1250 gpm/3500, and 1-1000gpm/ 2000), 1 hydrant truck 1000gpm/ 1800' of 4" and one 4000 gallon tanker.

    Our response area is all rural with no wet hydrants. We do however have 25 dry hydrants and about 10 more locations to get water.

    The first arriving engine lays in 5" ldh with a 5" gated wye on the street side. Usually first tanker arrives before second engine (coming from our other station). The first tanker tiesinto gated wye and pumps water up the drive until second engine sets up and drafts from two portable tanks (this is the minimum, usually 3). The second engine hits the other side of the wye and shuts off the tanker side and starts flowing water. The first tanker goes to fill site and usually second tanker is right behind it. Automatic aid arrives with additional 9500 gallons and hydrant truck is dispatched directly to fill site from water command (usually officer on second engine)
    All tankers in area are equiped for side dumps and drop tanks are set up to keep at least one lane of traffic open. The tankers then drive the country block to fill and dump. This eliminates the need for any backing up. For bigger fires, barns or industrial, four or five additional tankers and one additional engine to set up second fill site is dispatched.
    We have found this method very effective and have flowed 500gpm within 2 minutes arriving on scene and have moved as much as 2500 gpm for two hours without any interruptions of water. We also used 17 tankers hauling 60,000 gallons of water a 10 mile loop.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Lusby, MD
    Posts
    1,033

    Default

    Fyred up has the best solution. You don't state how big the house is, or the manpower available. If you can't change the hose loads or running order, how about:

    1st engine drops the 3"
    Tankers set up dump tanks and drop water.
    2nd engine picks up line and sets up draft from the ponds.
    additional 3" hand jacked from the 2nd engine as necessary.

    It's not ideal, but may work with the given setup. You should be able to supply two 1 3/4" attack lines with the 3 inch. You'll be OK if you can get a quick knock, but won't have much extra if needed.

  8. #8
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    Fyred up has the best solution. You don't state how big the house is, or the manpower available. If you can't change the hose loads or running order, how about:

    1st engine drops the 3"
    Tankers set up dump tanks and drop water.
    2nd engine picks up line and sets up draft from the ponds.
    additional 3" hand jacked from the 2nd engine as necessary.

    It's not ideal, but may work with the given setup. You should be able to supply two 1 3/4" attack lines with the 3 inch. You'll be OK if you can get a quick knock, but won't have much extra if needed.
    Pretty much what I was thinking as well.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabrielb View Post
    500 foot driveway, 3 miles from town, appx 10 y/o split level house with fire showing along D side on D-1

    trying to get better ideas on establishing a water supply, and NOT backing tankers up the driveway which is what we cant seem to figure out...
    and I realize that our hose loads are "less than desirable" to put it nicely... and now your in my position and have to "make it work"

    first due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    supply line=
    350 ft of ldh
    600 ft of 3inch


    second due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    third due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    fourth due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    300ft ldh
    300 ft 3inch
    and about 700 ft 3 inch on donut rolls on top of the ldh

    i personally think our trucks were setup by a monkey, so... do what you can with that... and then i would appreciate insight on how to make changes to the trucks keeping in mind that they will always show up in that order
    first of all move all the LDH to one truck, having the small amounts on each truck really make a glorified soft hydrant connection rather than the intent of placing a water main on top of the road and where you are needing it. Actually to get the points for ISO you didn't even have enough supply line to classify as a pumper So by moving all the LDH to truck one it gets you over the 1000 ft level for both trucks.

    I don't understand all the 3" in doughnut rolls on truck 4 but in your original question to use just one 3" may not be enough for supplying the first in truck if things went bad, more volume....

    I like the fact of having a bigger dump tank than the actual tanker. I cant tell you how many 2000 gallon tankers with a 2000 gallon dump tank I have seen.

  10. #10
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gabrielb View Post
    500 foot driveway, 3 miles from town, appx 10 y/o split level house with fire showing along D side on D-1

    trying to get better ideas on establishing a water supply, and NOT backing tankers up the driveway which is what we cant seem to figure out...
    and I realize that our hose loads are "less than desirable" to put it nicely... and now your in my position and have to "make it work"

    first due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    supply line=
    350 ft of ldh
    600 ft of 3inch


    second due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    third due=
    300gpm/2000 gal tanker
    3000 gal dump tank and no supply line

    fourth due=
    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    300ft ldh
    300 ft 3inch
    and about 700 ft 3 inch on donut rolls on top of the ldh

    i personally think our trucks were setup by a monkey, so... do what you can with that... and then i would appreciate insight on how to make changes to the trucks keeping in mind that they will always show up in that order
    You need to change the way you load your hosebed. There is not enough LDH or 3" on the first due for this mission. This was correctly stated previously.

    Put the 700' of 3" (donut rolls) with 500' of 3" into Engine #1 hose bed so you have at least one 1200 foot forward lay.

    Put the other 400 foot of 3" on Engine #2 in a Reverse lay. (This is subjective and I could be convinced to forward lay based upon your district needs.)

    Put all 650 foot of the LDH on Engine #1 in Forward lay.

    This allows you to maximize hose loads based upon situation. Anything further than 600' you're using 3". (ISO will only credit the 1200 feet of 3".) The reason I would reverse lay the Engine #2 load is to allow Engine #1 to drop based on perceived distance. If the lay is not started in practical location, Engine #2 can reverse from the hose to the Desired Location; hopefully (400' doesn't give you much play). Even with 3" on the supply, you can still move enough water up to 1000 feet... depending on the situation.

    Sometimes, nothing goes as planned and you just have to adapt and overcome.

    Find some more hose... even 3" is better than nothing.... put it on Engine #2.

    You do not mention if this is all of the apparatus that you have. But here is our solution to your mission.

    ______________________________ ______________________________ _

    First Due - Engine 1500gpm 750 gals: Fireground Engine
    Lays LDH into the fireground, beginning at the end of the driveway (road).

    Second Due - Engine 1500gpm 750 gals: Relay Engine
    Picks up LDH at Road, prepare water transfer (relay) to FG Engine. Grab Ponds from Tankers as arrive.

    Third Due - Tanker 2500 gals:
    Note: The 2nd/3rd due may be flipped depending on First out Station.

    Sent to Relay Engine or Fire Ground Engine depending on order of arrival.

    1) If FG Engine - drop pond at Relay ENGINE - move up to nurse FG Engine until water exhausted. This nurse connection is on 6" Steamer on Gated "Y". This allows the Relay to be made before Water Ready. We move alot of water quick.

    2) If Relay Engine - Dump to Pond for Relay Engine.

    I need to note this: We usually will send the first tanker to the FG Engine. This is based upon the fact that if we receive early notification and we arrive within minutes and not tens of minutes, we stand a better chance of quick knockdown. Otherwise, we still have time to fight if big water is late.

    Using this tactic has been overwhelmingly successful. But even if this isn't enough, we still have plan B ready to go... right now.

    Fourth Due - Tanker 2500 gals:
    Dump at Relay Engine and begin Shuttle.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We have a bit more equipment than you have indicated.

    A third Engine is sent to back up the First Due Engine on FG. This is based on lessons learned -> when everything that can go wrong... does. If you lose the pump, truck engine or any part of your ability to perform, you better have a backup Engine on scene. Depending on size of structure or additional exposures, you might need the additional truck. Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it. In your case, if you don't have a third Engine, call mutual aid.

    We will stage a 4th Engine as needed.

    All arriving tankers assume Water Supply role - Shuttle - Dump, drive, fill, drive, repeat as often as necessary. We have four 2500 gallon tankers... no pumps. 6" Suction port & 12x12 dump. Since you only indicate that there are 2 tankers, you should always call for more. It is better to get them started early than run out of water. A 2-Tanker Shuttle that has to cover alot of ground will not be successful in the beginning when you require mega water. If one of yours goes down, then you are really screwed.

    While I typically agree with the need to have Pumper/Tankers, it is better to concentrate your pump operations on two or three Engines: Fireground and Water Supply. You indicate that you use a 1250 at the Fireground. That should be more than adequate for any house. Even if you deploy 2-1/2" play pipes/nozzles or a cannon, the truck has more than enough capability. Your biggest issue is suppling the water to that single Engine.

    You state that the Tankers have 300gmp pumps. If that pump is the way you refill your tankers, you need to rethink this. It will take 7 minutes to refill the tankers if the pump operator is at his best. It will take another minute to get the tanker in the right spot and connect/disconnect hoses. 8 minutes to refill the tanker plus the amount of travel time based on about 2 minutes per mile both directions- 4 minutes)

    If the refill site is 1 mile, You are looking at 12+ minutes before the tanker returns to the Dump tank. Your FG Engine has been out of Water for how long? (depends on what is used.): 1800 gallons (2000 x 90%) / FG gpm. If your hoses are using 100gpm, you have 9 minute water supply at scene between tankers. BUT, if it is 3 miles to the refill site, add about 12 minutes to your refill time... 20 minutes before water arrives.

    Note: You may choose to dump both tankers in the beginning and extend the initial water supply, but you may negate the effectiveness of quick first strike if Relay operations are delayed or interupted. Even if you do dump both tankers at the beginning, the water supply issue will catch up with you somewhere between the second dump of second tanker and third arrival of first tanker. If you do not have control or stabilized the scene, you're in trouble. Introduce at least one more tanker to your shuttle as a contengency.

    You need to refill the tankers at least as 2 times quicker as the Fireground Engine will use the load. If you are using 200gpm at the FG, then 400gpm will still be light but it will work depending on distance. I'd rather refill at 1000gpm or better and get the tankers back quicker.

    In our dept, Tankers haul water, Engines, Trucks (not pumpers) pump and draft (suck).

    We deploy a Draft Engine (2000gpm 600gals) to the refill site(s) based upon need. This could be a dry hydrant, a boat ramp or a FBH (****** Big Hydrant) which usually provide 2000 to 2500 gpm on 4-1/2" discharge and 5" LDH. Fill Sites are always within 1/4 mile, otherwise we have a hydrant within 1000 feet and will push it in.

    Note: The Draft Engine was specifically designed to draft and has all necessary equipment, strainers, hoses, etc to do the job. The truck can be used as a Water Relay Engine from a hydrant or draft. If Murphey has arrived "on scene", it can be used to drown Murphey as needed.

    (We think we have a guy name Murphey, but no one has ever seen him. If something goes wrong, you know he is there.)

    Our District has about 75% Hydrant coverage, but we maintain a dedicated tanker and draft fleet for the other 25% that is still considered the boonies. Our Draft Truck and 2 tankers roll for mutual aid when needed to move alot of water. Dept is a single class 4 throughout our district.

    Not trying to brag, it took years of hard work to get here.

    Your best solution is to acquire additional LDH or even 3" for the first due truck; 1200 feet or more on each load. Always lay from the roadway to the scene. Never have tankers pass each other (if possible) on the route. Dump and go, with the exception of the first tanker that can be deployed to the FG Engine. This buys you time if the WS Engine and other tankers are delayed.

    Based upon a 2000 gallon tanker: if you deploy 2 handlines at 100gpm each, you'll have at least 10 minutes of water (plus your Engine Load) in worse case if water supply is late. Even if you need 400gpm for initial attack, you still have 5 minutes (plus) so the relay guys can get set up. You should be able to attack the fire within minute 3 upon arrival, including the hose layin. You may not have the Nurse hooked up, but it should be underway. This can be accomplished using 2.5 or 3" Flex suction hose and can be performed by all hands not on the attack hose within 1 minute. If timed correctly, the transfer to the tanker should be ready before the engine is empty. based on 1000gals, you will have about 4+ minutes to make the connection.

    One of the biggest mistakes I see is the first due runs out of water within minutes having not allowed for water supply. If you lay your supply hose, grab your nurse, your first due should be fine if the relay operations doesn't get screwed up.

    Think about it like this: You are arriving with 3000 gallons - 300 (10%) = 2700 gallons. If you use 200 gpm you have 13 minutes of water supply with margin. If you need 400gpm you still have 6 minutes of water supply with margin. If your relay isn't set up by then, your done. Your relay has to be on scene and ready within 5 minutes after you begin initial attack. Otherwise, holding the first tanker back to dump was a big mistake, and you ran out of water after a few minutes (2 to 4.5)... again depends on FG use.

    If you deploy a cannon or monitor and anything else, your stay and play time can be calculated as 2700 / gpm of large water gun + handlines + other.

    The situation will depend on what you have upon arrival. But if your tanker arrives right behind your first Engine, take it to the Engine. By the time the Engine has laid in, you will have enough Water to fight with until the big water arrives. Once you empty the FG Tanker, get it out. This will be the only time you will need to use it in that function... it goes to shuttle. If you have big water while you still have Tanker Load, begin transition over to relay and get rid of the tanker sooner.

    This type of operation can have many pitfalls. Communications between the Water Supply officer and the FG Engine Operator should be established and maintained. The FG Operator must always be aware of impending water shortage. It is not good to cut his supply because it will really tick off the guys on the hoses. I didn't need to really say that did I?

    The key to success is that you must think outside of the box. You must develop tactics and operations that fit your need. While you might get valuable insight from many guys with differing opinions, use what you can and remember the rest.

    Having too much knowledge is like having too much water. It never happens.

    While I am reasonably certain that any of us can bring our fleet to your district and duplicate what we can do at home, it may not necessarily be the best thing that you should or could do.

    Despite the fact that we do not Shuttle today as often as we once did, we still recognize that we must maintain that skill. Having said that, I have spent more than half of my career teaching Water Supply and Shuttle classes, and still teach 2 mega classes each year.

    Tankers have to be designed around the need, not to fit inside someone elses specs. If you can fill a tanker in less than two minutes and dump it in 1 minute (90%), then you have overcome a major obstacle, time. That translates to increased (TEgpm) Tanker-Engine Gallons per minute. You cannot affect anything else about that tanker. The Drive Time is all that is left. If you choose to have ISO visit, they will time your tankers based upon fill and dump... only. They use the same drive time data no matter what. So if it applies to ISO, then it must apply to you.

    Big Pumps + Big Ports + Big Hose = Big Water.

    Additional Note: Where you see the 10% factor used, I am taking 10% of your water away to allow for leaks, spillage from tankers, shortloads,etc. You will not keep your tanker dumping when it is just a trickle; Some water does not leave the tank. If you arrive with 2000 gallons, great! You get a Gold Star! But just for safety sake and a buffer, always use 90% of the load for your calculations.

    Good Luck with finding your best solution.

  11. #11
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    You need to change the way you load your hosebed. There is not enough LDH or 3" on the first due for this mission. This was correctly stated previously.

    Put the 700' of 3" (donut rolls) with 500' of 3" into Engine #1 hose bed so you have at least one 1200 foot forward lay.

    Put the other 400 foot of 3" on Engine #2 in a Reverse lay. (This is subjective and I could be convinced to forward lay based upon your district needs.)

    Put all 650 foot of the LDH on Engine #1 in Forward lay.

    This allows you to maximize hose loads based upon situation. Anything further than 600' you're using 3". (ISO will only credit the 1200 feet of 3".) The reason I would reverse lay the Engine #2 load is to allow Engine #1 to drop based on perceived distance. If the lay is not started in practical location, Engine #2 can reverse from the hose to the Desired Location; hopefully (400' doesn't give you much play). Even with 3" on the supply, you can still move enough water up to 1000 feet... depending on the situation.

    Sometimes, nothing goes as planned and you just have to adapt and overcome.

    Find some more hose... even 3" is better than nothing.... put it on Engine #2.

    You do not mention if this is all of the apparatus that you have. But here is our solution to your mission.

    ______________________________ ______________________________ _

    First Due - Engine 1500gpm 750 gals: Fireground Engine
    Lays LDH into the fireground, beginning at the end of the driveway (road).

    Second Due - Engine 1500gpm 750 gals: Relay Engine
    Picks up LDH at Road, prepare water transfer (relay) to FG Engine. Grab Ponds from Tankers as arrive.

    Third Due - Tanker 2500 gals:
    Note: The 2nd/3rd due may be flipped depending on First out Station.

    Sent to Relay Engine or Fire Ground Engine depending on order of arrival.

    1) If FG Engine - drop pond at Relay ENGINE - move up to nurse FG Engine until water exhausted. This nurse connection is on 6" Steamer on Gated "Y". This allows the Relay to be made before Water Ready. We move alot of water quick.

    2) If Relay Engine - Dump to Pond for Relay Engine.

    I need to note this: We usually will send the first tanker to the FG Engine. This is based upon the fact that if we receive early notification and we arrive within minutes and not tens of minutes, we stand a better chance of quick knockdown. Otherwise, we still have time to fight if big water is late.

    Using this tactic has been overwhelmingly successful. But even if this isn't enough, we still have plan B ready to go... right now.

    Fourth Due - Tanker 2500 gals:
    Dump at Relay Engine and begin Shuttle.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We have a bit more equipment than you have indicated.

    A third Engine is sent to back up the First Due Engine on FG. This is based on lessons learned -> when everything that can go wrong... does. If you lose the pump, truck engine or any part of your ability to perform, you better have a backup Engine on scene. Depending on size of structure or additional exposures, you might need the additional truck. Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it. In your case, if you don't have a third Engine, call mutual aid.

    We will stage a 4th Engine as needed.

    All arriving tankers assume Water Supply role - Shuttle - Dump, drive, fill, drive, repeat as often as necessary. We have four 2500 gallon tankers... no pumps. 6" Suction port & 12x12 dump. Since you only indicate that there are 2 tankers, you should always call for more. It is better to get them started early than run out of water. A 2-Tanker Shuttle that has to cover alot of ground will not be successful in the beginning when you require mega water. If one of yours goes down, then you are really screwed.

    While I typically agree with the need to have Pumper/Tankers, it is better to concentrate your pump operations on two or three Engines: Fireground and Water Supply. You indicate that you use a 1250 at the Fireground. That should be more than adequate for any house. Even if you deploy 2-1/2" play pipes/nozzles or a cannon, the truck has more than enough capability. Your biggest issue is suppling the water to that single Engine.

    You state that the Tankers have 300gmp pumps. If that pump is the way you refill your tankers, you need to rethink this. It will take 7 minutes to refill the tankers if the pump operator is at his best. It will take another minute to get the tanker in the right spot and connect/disconnect hoses. 8 minutes to refill the tanker plus the amount of travel time based on about 2 minutes per mile both directions- 4 minutes)

    If the refill site is 1 mile, You are looking at 12+ minutes before the tanker returns to the Dump tank. Your FG Engine has been out of Water for how long? (depends on what is used.): 1800 gallons (2000 x 90%) / FG gpm. If your hoses are using 100gpm, you have 9 minute water supply at scene between tankers. BUT, if it is 3 miles to the refill site, add about 12 minutes to your refill time... 20 minutes before water arrives.

    Note: You may choose to dump both tankers in the beginning and extend the initial water supply, but you may negate the effectiveness of quick first strike if Relay operations are delayed or interupted. Even if you do dump both tankers at the beginning, the water supply issue will catch up with you somewhere between the second dump of second tanker and third arrival of first tanker. If you do not have control or stabilized the scene, you're in trouble. Introduce at least one more tanker to your shuttle as a contengency.

    You need to refill the tankers at least as 2 times quicker as the Fireground Engine will use the load. If you are using 200gpm at the FG, then 400gpm will still be light but it will work depending on distance. I'd rather refill at 1000gpm or better and get the tankers back quicker.

    In our dept, Tankers haul water, Engines, Trucks (not pumpers) pump and draft (suck).

    We deploy a Draft Engine (2000gpm 600gals) to the refill site(s) based upon need. This could be a dry hydrant, a boat ramp or a FBH (****** Big Hydrant) which usually provide 2000 to 2500 gpm on 4-1/2" discharge and 5" LDH. Fill Sites are always within 1/4 mile, otherwise we have a hydrant within 1000 feet and will push it in.

    Note: The Draft Engine was specifically designed to draft and has all necessary equipment, strainers, hoses, etc to do the job. The truck can be used as a Water Relay Engine from a hydrant or draft. If Murphey has arrived "on scene", it can be used to drown Murphey as needed.

    (We think we have a guy name Murphey, but no one has ever seen him. If something goes wrong, you know he is there.)

    Our District has about 75% Hydrant coverage, but we maintain a dedicated tanker and draft fleet for the other 25% that is still considered the boonies. Our Draft Truck and 2 tankers roll for mutual aid when needed to move alot of water. Dept is a single class 4 throughout our district.

    Not trying to brag, it took years of hard work to get here.

    Your best solution is to acquire additional LDH or even 3" for the first due truck; 1200 feet or more on each load. Always lay from the roadway to the scene. Never have tankers pass each other (if possible) on the route. Dump and go, with the exception of the first tanker that can be deployed to the FG Engine. This buys you time if the WS Engine and other tankers are delayed.

    Based upon a 2000 gallon tanker: if you deploy 2 handlines at 100gpm each, you'll have at least 10 minutes of water (plus your Engine Load) in worse case if water supply is late. Even if you need 400gpm for initial attack, you still have 5 minutes (plus) so the relay guys can get set up. You should be able to attack the fire within minute 3 upon arrival, including the hose layin. You may not have the Nurse hooked up, but it should be underway. This can be accomplished using 2.5 or 3" Flex suction hose and can be performed by all hands not on the attack hose within 1 minute. If timed correctly, the transfer to the tanker should be ready before the engine is empty. based on 1000gals, you will have about 4+ minutes to make the connection.

    One of the biggest mistakes I see is the first due runs out of water within minutes having not allowed for water supply. If you lay your supply hose, grab your nurse, your first due should be fine if the relay operations doesn't get screwed up.

    Think about it like this: You are arriving with 3000 gallons - 300 (10%) = 2700 gallons. If you use 200 gpm you have 13 minutes of water supply with margin. If you need 400gpm you still have 6 minutes of water supply with margin. If your relay isn't set up by then, your done. Your relay has to be on scene and ready within 5 minutes after you begin initial attack. Otherwise, holding the first tanker back to dump was a big mistake, and you ran out of water after a few minutes (2 to 4.5)... again depends on FG use.

    If you deploy a cannon or monitor and anything else, your stay and play time can be calculated as 2700 / gpm of large water gun + handlines + other.

    The situation will depend on what you have upon arrival. But if your tanker arrives right behind your first Engine, take it to the Engine. By the time the Engine has laid in, you will have enough Water to fight with until the big water arrives. Once you empty the FG Tanker, get it out. This will be the only time you will need to use it in that function... it goes to shuttle. If you have big water while you still have Tanker Load, begin transition over to relay and get rid of the tanker sooner.

    This type of operation can have many pitfalls. Communications between the Water Supply officer and the FG Engine Operator should be established and maintained. The FG Operator must always be aware of impending water shortage. It is not good to cut his supply because it will really tick off the guys on the hoses. I didn't need to really say that did I?

    The key to success is that you must think outside of the box. You must develop tactics and operations that fit your need. While you might get valuable insight from many guys with differing opinions, use what you can and remember the rest.

    Having too much knowledge is like having too much water. It never happens.

    While I am reasonably certain that any of us can bring our fleet to your district and duplicate what we can do at home, it may not necessarily be the best thing that you should or could do.

    Despite the fact that we do not Shuttle today as often as we once did, we still recognize that we must maintain that skill. Having said that, I have spent more than half of my career teaching Water Supply and Shuttle classes, and still teach 2 mega classes each year.

    Tankers have to be designed around the need, not to fit inside someone elses specs. If you can fill a tanker in less than two minutes and dump it in 1 minute (90%), then you have overcome a major obstacle, time. That translates to increased (TEgpm) Tanker-Engine Gallons per minute. You cannot affect anything else about that tanker. The Drive Time is all that is left. If you choose to have ISO visit, they will time your tankers based upon fill and dump... only. They use the same drive time data no matter what. So if it applies to ISO, then it must apply to you.

    Big Pumps + Big Ports + Big Hose = Big Water.

    Additional Note: Where you see the 10% factor used, I am taking 10% of your water away to allow for leaks, spillage from tankers, shortloads,etc. You will not keep your tanker dumping when it is just a trickle; Some water does not leave the tank. If you arrive with 2000 gallons, great! You get a Gold Star! But just for safety sake and a buffer, always use 90% of the load for your calculations.

    Good Luck with finding your best solution.
    Wow, that is one hell of a response. Good info.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  12. #12
    Forum Member DubyaVFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Maitland, NS, Canada
    Posts
    102

    Default

    This type of fire is why we have LDH on every Pumper. Generally our pumpers have 600-1000' of LDH and at 500-800IG on board, tankers have 1000-2000IG and no hose. Sequence of arrival depends upon location and road conditions, but generally it goes as follows:
    • Pumper 1 lays LDH from roadside to the structure and sets up to attack using onboard water, leaving space for porta-tank.
    • Tanker 1 drops and fills porta-tank at pumper 1, then goes to the fill site declared by IC during transit to scene. Pumper 2 (below) should be there first.
    • Pumper 2 goes directly to fill site (see above) and sets up to fill tankers.
    • Pumper 3 completes LDH lay if needed, then sets up to relay.
    • Tanker 2 drops his tank and pumper 3, dumps, then joins shuttle.
    • Tanker 3 drops his tank at roadside, dumps, and joins shuttle.
    • Any further tankers immediately join shuttle.

    Somewhere in there pumper 4 will arrive with manpower & gear, and stages at scene.

    Note that most of us run commercial-cab trucks - most pumpers have 3 seats, tankers 2. Lotsa pumpers and POVs
    "I've met lots of volunteer firefighters, but I've never seen a volunteer fire!"
    - R. MacLeod, Alma VFD

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    1,145

    Default

    I'd say that your main issue is getting your hose loads right. Why carry anything rolled in a hosebed. If you need hose you don't need to jack around unrolling it.

    We carry 1200' of 4" on every engine. If we have to lay in on a long drive, the engine drops at the road and lays in. The tanker will hook up (500 gpm) to the hose and pump to the engine until the 2nd engine arrives at that time the they will hook the hose and the tanker will dump the rest of his load into the portatank and then go refill at a hydrant. We send two engines 1250/1000 and two 2000 gallon tankers with a MA tanker as well. We will only drop one tank unless we see that we are going to need more water and then more tanks will we droped as needed.

    As LT said you need a larger portatank than the trucks tank. We carry 3000 gallon portatanks on our 2000 gallon tankers and 4000 gallon portatanks on a 3000 gallon tanker.

  14. #14
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    We carry 1200' of 4" on every engine. If we have to lay in on a long drive, the engine drops at the road and lays in. The tanker will hook up (500 gpm) to the hose and pump to the engine until the 2nd engine arrives at that time the they will hook the hose and the tanker will dump the rest of his load into the portatank and then go refill at a hydrant. We send two engines 1250/1000 and two 2000 gallon tankers with a MA tanker as well. We will only drop one tank unless we see that we are going to need more water and then more tanks will we droped as needed.

    As LT said you need a larger portatank than the trucks tank. We carry 3000 gallon portatanks on our 2000 gallon tankers and 4000 gallon portatanks on a 3000 gallon tanker.

    I like it. Good Plan.

    Do you use a jet siphon for pond to pond transfer? Just curious.

    And didn't you guys study under the Tanker Master... B Nole?

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    1,145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    I like it. Good Plan.

    Do you use a jet siphon for pond to pond transfer? Just curious.

    And didn't you guys study under the Tanker Master... B Nole?
    If we go to more than one tank we will use a low-pro strainer with a jet siphon in it. The tankers all have an low-pro on it as well a piece of hard suction. On our shift the tanker driver will kick off the suction when he drops his tank.

    We didn't really study under anybody other than the mobile water supply class by MU. We have made changes to fit the way we operate.

    I think that there is an NFPA stardand about the portatank size in relation to the truck tank size.
    Last edited by rm1524; 12-12-2009 at 11:19 PM.

  16. #16
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    I really appreciate gabrielb bringing us together on this subject.

    There is alot of good info here and perhaps it will help some of the depts with their water supply issues.

    rm1524: Thanks for the info. It's good to see guys using everything they can to make it work. The jet siphon is very useful when you conduct large scale water operations.

    Having too much water is like having too much fun.

    Neither can ever happen.

  17. #17
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    I agree with several points already made.

    You clearly need more LDH.

    Our first due was fitted out for this very reason. Long driveways.

    You want at least 500' of LDH on your first due (at least).
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    63

    Default

    I agree with all the above. my own thoughts on this.

    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    supply line=
    350 ft of ldh
    600 ft of 3inch

    1250gpm/1000 gal pumper
    300ft ldh
    300 ft 3inch
    700 ft 3 inch on donut rolls on top of the ldh

    650’LDH
    1600’ 3”
    Total

    Attack engine
    1200’ 3”

    650’ LDH on supply engine
    400’ 3”


    You can supply 800-1000 GPM through duel 3” in your scenario, longer setback 400-500 through a single 3”. You should think about having four (4) engines on your initial dispatch. One attack engine, one dumpsite engine and one supply site engine. The fourth is for just in case. Have him send his manpower up to the scene and the engineer and one FF stay with the rig as insurance if somebody does go out of service.

    First in drops line/lines at the street, lays in to the fire. 2nd due should be the supply engine or a pumper-tanker to pickup the lay. Third due engine goes to water and prepares to supply tankers. The tanker(s) should be arriving with or AFTER the second due engine. They by themselves don’t have the pump capacity to supply the hitch.

    The supply engine should be set up to be able to act as a draft site engine. That’s what the LDH is for. A LDH manifold is a must with this set up so you can charge the LDH and just do drive by with your tankers. Consider stortz fittings on the 3” off the manifold to speed up the turn around.

    Luck with this.

    Big plus on getting extra LDH. 800-1000 per engine.

  19. #19
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    If the the longest driveway you have is 500' then you should be able to get by with a dual 3 inch lay. Having said that LDH is much better, but you should still be able to get 700-900 gpm with dual 3 inch. Your strongest pump needs to be at the road, the next strongest at the fire.

    What is the burst pressure on your hose lines?

  20. #20
    ...
    ... is offline
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    420

    Default

    With out changing your apparatus this is what I would do: Have the first engine lay in the 3" from the driveway and then refill its tank with water from the first tanker, have the second tanker set up a dump site at the base of the driveway, have the second engine supply the first and lay another line, and then start a tanker shuttle.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Rural Water Supply
    By RHVFC in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 04:42 PM
  2. rural water supply
    By jpchev in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 01-28-2009, 03:43 PM
  3. Rural Water Supply
    By TriTownship600 in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 10-17-2001, 08:10 PM
  4. Rural Water Supply
    By phyrngn in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-26-2000, 06:15 PM
  5. Rural Water Supply
    By Blitzattak in forum Rapid Intervention
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-03-1999, 11:46 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts