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    Default Another Obama Failure

    Only about 4% get long-term mortgage help

    Servicers provide permanent modifications to 31,382 troubled borrowers, according to first report issued by Treasury Department. An equal number have been denied.

    By Tami Luhby, CNNMoney.com
    Last Updated: December 10, 2009: 6:22 PM ET


    NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Only about 4% of troubled borrowers have received long-term help under the Obama administration's foreclosure prevention program, Treasury officials said Thursday.

    A nearly equal number of trial modifications have been denied permanent assistance, the report showed. The reasons include not making monthly payments on time, not submitting all the necessary paperwork and not qualifying for reasons such as insufficient income.

    The report, the first comprehensive tally of permanent modifications made, shows that loan servicers have converted 31,382 people from trial adjustments to long-term assistance as of Nov. 30.

    But 30,650 people in trial modifications have been denied, according to Treasury officials.

    The dearth of permanent modifications has fueled concerns that the $75 billion plan will fall far short of its goal to help up to 4 million delinquent homeowners.

    The number of troubled borrowers currently in trial modifications rose to 697,026, up from 650,994, a month earlier. ...
    The chosen one is making Bush look better and better with each passing day.......

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    A nearly equal number of trial modifications have been denied permanent assistance, the report showed. The reasons include not making monthly payments on time, not submitting all the necessary paperwork and not qualifying for reasons such as insufficient income.
    Not for nuttin...but that sounds like a plan that IS working. Not throwing good money into bad investments.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Here's the rest of the story. Funny how you left out the parts discussing how the banks and the homeowners are a significant part of why that # is so low.

    My sewage bill just went up, is that Obama's fault too?

    ........................."Our focus now is on working with servicers, borrowers and organizations to get as many of those eligible homeowners as possible into permanent modifications," said Phyllis Caldwell, chief of Treasury's Homeownership Preservation Office.

    Banks and the administration have come under fire in recent months as delinquent borrowers languish in trial modifications. Lawmakers lambasted servicers and Obama officials at a congressional hearing Tuesday for not doing more to help homeowners facing foreclosure.

    Last week, the administration announced it was ramping up its oversight of loan servicers' conversion operations, sending in SWAT teams to break up any logjams, and requiring banks to submit updates twice daily on their efforts. Administration officials called financial executives to Washington this week to urge them to quicken the conversion pace.

    "We're not satisfied yet with how this program is unfolding," said Treasury Assistant Secretary for Financial Stability Herbert Allison at the House Financial Services hearing. "The servicers have a lot of work to do, and we're holding them accountable for their performance."

    While the permanent modification figures are disappointing, there is still time for the Obama administration to turn the program around, said Alan White, a law professor at Valparaiso University. But he would like to see a big increase in the numbers in the next month or two.

    "Treasury is aware there is a problem," White said. "We'll see if they are able to do something about it."

    Thursday's announcement came hours after a report showed the foreclosure crisis might be mitigating somewhat. Foreclosure filings fell by 8% in November, the fourth consecutive month of declines, according to RealtyTrac, an online marketer of foreclosed properties.
    The paperwork

    Under the president's plan, delinquent borrowers are put into trial modifications for several months to make sure they can handle the new payments and to give them time to submit their financial paperwork. Once the modification becomes permanent, servicers, investors and homeowners are eligible to receive thousands of dollars in incentive payments.

    If they qualify for a long-term modification, borrowers can keep making the lower payments for five years, after which time the interest rate is set at the rate at the time of the adjustment, or about 5% today. Borrowers in modifications are saving an average of more than $550 a month.

    Loan servicers say they are having trouble getting the necessary documents from borrowers.

    Some 375,000 people should be eligible to receive long-term relief by year's end. But only one-third of homeowners who have made at least three trial payments have submitted all the needed forms, Treasury officials have said. Some 20% have not submitted any paperwork. Banks and government agencies have hired outside companies to knock on borrowers' doors to assist them with completing the paperwork.

    Homeowners, however, maintain that their financial institutions are constantly losing the paperwork.

    Donna Belanus, who just made her fourth trial payment to Wells Fargo, has repeatedly faxed her financial information and hardship letter to her loan servicer after being told her file was incomplete. The Elkhorn, Wis., resident was told a month ago that she'd receive a decision soon, but she's still waiting.

    "If you give them everything, they should have an answer," said Belanus, who saw her monthly payments drop nearly $350 under the trial modification. "I don't want to lose my home because they take too long. It's uneasy not knowing what's going to happen."

    A Wells Fargo spokesman said Belanus' file is complete and is in the review process. She should be notified of a decision within 45 days.
    Denied
    0:00 /2:06A rare case of mortgage reduction

    Once their files are complete, borrowers may be denied long-term help if they don't meet the program's criteria.

    At JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500), for instance, some 29% of borrowers offered trial plans did not make the required payments and are not eligible for permanent modifications, the bank reported. Another 51% have made the three required payments but have not provided all the needed paperwork.

    The bank has launched a program to call borrowers 36 times, reach out by mail 15 times and make at least two home visits to retrieve the required forms.

    About 20% have met all the criteria and the majority are expected to be put in long-term modifications soon, the bank said.

    So far, some 4,302 borrowers at Chase have received permanent modifications, while another 16,131 have been approved for long-term help. The servicer has offered trial modifications to 199,033 borrowers.

    "We continue to work very hard to convert customers from a trial modification to a permanent modification that lowers their monthly payment, but it has been a struggle," said Charlie Scharf, head of retail financial services at Chase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Not for nuttin...but that sounds like a plan that IS working. Not throwing good money into bad investments.
    Bonesy. Do you realize you're discussing finance with someone who went BK over a credit card balance?

    Do yourself a favor. Don't waste your time or bandwidth.
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    Betcha Chris Dodd goes to the front of the line.
    THAT'S why Obama's a Nobel Prize winner and we aren't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Here's the rest of the story. Funny how you left out the parts discussing how the banks and the homeowners are a significant part of why that # is so low.

    My sewage bill just went up, is that Obama's fault too?

    ........................."Our focus now is on working with servicers, borrowers and organizations to get as many of those eligible homeowners as possible into permanent modifications," said Phyllis Caldwell, chief of Treasury's Homeownership Preservation Office.

    Banks and the administration have come under fire in recent months as delinquent borrowers languish in trial modifications. Lawmakers lambasted servicers and Obama officials at a congressional hearing Tuesday for not doing more to help homeowners facing foreclosure.

    Last week, the administration announced it was ramping up its oversight of loan servicers' conversion operations, sending in SWAT teams to break up any logjams, and requiring banks to submit updates twice daily on their efforts. Administration officials called financial executives to Washington this week to urge them to quicken the conversion pace.

    "We're not satisfied yet with how this program is unfolding," said Treasury Assistant Secretary for Financial Stability Herbert Allison at the House Financial Services hearing. "The servicers have a lot of work to do, and we're holding them accountable for their performance."

    While the permanent modification figures are disappointing, there is still time for the Obama administration to turn the program around, said Alan White, a law professor at Valparaiso University. But he would like to see a big increase in the numbers in the next month or two.

    "Treasury is aware there is a problem," White said. "We'll see if they are able to do something about it."

    Thursday's announcement came hours after a report showed the foreclosure crisis might be mitigating somewhat. Foreclosure filings fell by 8% in November, the fourth consecutive month of declines, according to RealtyTrac, an online marketer of foreclosed properties.
    The paperwork

    Under the president's plan, delinquent borrowers are put into trial modifications for several months to make sure they can handle the new payments and to give them time to submit their financial paperwork. Once the modification becomes permanent, servicers, investors and homeowners are eligible to receive thousands of dollars in incentive payments.

    If they qualify for a long-term modification, borrowers can keep making the lower payments for five years, after which time the interest rate is set at the rate at the time of the adjustment, or about 5% today. Borrowers in modifications are saving an average of more than $550 a month.

    Loan servicers say they are having trouble getting the necessary documents from borrowers.

    Some 375,000 people should be eligible to receive long-term relief by year's end. But only one-third of homeowners who have made at least three trial payments have submitted all the needed forms, Treasury officials have said. Some 20% have not submitted any paperwork. Banks and government agencies have hired outside companies to knock on borrowers' doors to assist them with completing the paperwork.

    Homeowners, however, maintain that their financial institutions are constantly losing the paperwork.

    Donna Belanus, who just made her fourth trial payment to Wells Fargo, has repeatedly faxed her financial information and hardship letter to her loan servicer after being told her file was incomplete. The Elkhorn, Wis., resident was told a month ago that she'd receive a decision soon, but she's still waiting.

    "If you give them everything, they should have an answer," said Belanus, who saw her monthly payments drop nearly $350 under the trial modification. "I don't want to lose my home because they take too long. It's uneasy not knowing what's going to happen."

    A Wells Fargo spokesman said Belanus' file is complete and is in the review process. She should be notified of a decision within 45 days.
    Denied
    0:00 /2:06A rare case of mortgage reduction

    Once their files are complete, borrowers may be denied long-term help if they don't meet the program's criteria.

    At JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500), for instance, some 29% of borrowers offered trial plans did not make the required payments and are not eligible for permanent modifications, the bank reported. Another 51% have made the three required payments but have not provided all the needed paperwork.

    The bank has launched a program to call borrowers 36 times, reach out by mail 15 times and make at least two home visits to retrieve the required forms.

    About 20% have met all the criteria and the majority are expected to be put in long-term modifications soon, the bank said.

    So far, some 4,302 borrowers at Chase have received permanent modifications, while another 16,131 have been approved for long-term help. The servicer has offered trial modifications to 199,033 borrowers.

    "We continue to work very hard to convert customers from a trial modification to a permanent modification that lowers their monthly payment, but it has been a struggle," said Charlie Scharf, head of retail financial services at Chase.
    HAHA someone got served.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Here's the rest of the story. Funny how you left out the parts discussing how the banks and the homeowners are a significant part of why that # is so low.

    My sewage bill just went up, is that Obama's fault too?
    I didn't post the entire article as I felt that was a waste of space. You will notice the ellipse that says there is more. I didn't leave it out I provided the link to the rest of the article.

    Some 375,000 people should be eligible to receive long-term relief by year's end. But only one-third of homeowners (125,000) who have made at least three trial payments have submitted all the needed forms, Treasury officials have said. Some 20% have not submitted any paperwork. Banks and government agencies have hired outside companies to knock on borrowers' doors to assist them with completing the paperwork.
    So 125,000 people submitted all the forms, yet only 30,000 have been approved. Sounds like the program isn't working. This is actually one of the few things Obama did that I agree with. Keep people in their homes and have them continue to pay rather than just walk away. Its a win - win situation for all. This is no where near as complicated as over hauling health care and they can't even get this right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Not for nuttin...but that sounds like a plan that IS working. Not throwing good money into bad investments.
    Actually, this is far better than some of the other waste of money going out there. At least here you keep people in their homes and you recover some if not all of the money they borrowed. The alternative is they walk away. Now you have empty house that the bank will sell for whatever it can get thus dropping home prices further.

    The good money is already in the investment, at least they are trying to work with homeowners to get it back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I didn't post the entire article as I felt that was a waste of space. You will notice the ellipse that says there is more. I didn't leave it out I provided the link to the rest of the article.
    I know that you provided the link and if "wasting space" was of such concern, then you shouldn't have posted any of the article. Making the accusation that you did while omitting the part that contradicts your claim is suspect.


    So 125,000 people submitted all the forms, yet only 30,000 have been approved. Sounds like the program isn't working.
    If you look at the article again, it said that "375,000 people should be eligible to receive long-term relief by year's end". Since the article is dated for December 10, it's entirely possible that a large portion of the 375,000 have not actually reached their eligibility date and therefor cannot be helped yet.

    Additionally, the article states that "only one-third of homeowners who have made at least three trial payments have submitted all the needed forms", however it doesn't provide the actual number of homeowners that have made at least three trial payments.

    This is actually one of the few things Obama did that I agree with. Keep people in their homes and have them continue to pay rather than just walk away. Its a win - win situation for all. This is no where near as complicated as over hauling health care and they can't even get this right.
    I agree that keeping people in their homes is better than having them sit empty since nobody "wins" in that situation. Obama's only been in office for 11 months. How old is this program? How long does it take to do a mortgage? From my own experiences, a mortgage or refinance takes at least 30-60 days (or more) to complete. So, considering that people need to make some "trial payments" before getting "permanent" help, I'd guess that the process takes at least 3-4 months to complete once it starts getting processed.

    To me, it sounds like the program may be working just fine, but not fast enough for some people's taste. A slow pace doesn't automatically equate to failure, just ask the Hare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I know that you provided the link and if "wasting space" was of such concern, then you shouldn't have posted any of the article. Making the accusation that you did while omitting the part that contradicts your claim is suspect.
    Its called a tease, something to get your interest

    If you look at the article again, it said that "375,000 people should be eligible to receive long-term relief by year's end". Since the article is dated for December 10, it's entirely possible that a large portion of the 375,000 have not actually reached their eligibility date and therefor cannot be helped yet.

    Additionally, the article states that "only one-third of homeowners who have made at least three trial payments have submitted all the needed forms", however it doesn't provide the actual number of homeowners that have made at least three trial payments.
    Thinking that an additional 250,000 people will become eligible in 21 days time for a program several months old is wishful thinking.

    I agree that keeping people in their homes is better than having them sit empty since nobody "wins" in that situation. Obama's only been in office for 11 months. How old is this program? How long does it take to do a mortgage? From my own experiences, a mortgage or refinance takes at least 30-60 days (or more) to complete. So, considering that people need to make some "trial payments" before getting "permanent" help, I'd guess that the process takes at least 3-4 months to complete once it starts getting processed.

    To me, it sounds like the program may be working just fine, but not fast enough for some people's taste. A slow pace doesn't automatically equate to failure, just ask the Hare.
    The program is about 10 months or so old. It was another one of those things that they shoved through without even thinking about it or how to get it done. We are talking about modifying a loan, not doing a complete mortgage. Title searches and all the other stuff are already done. There is no need for a closing either. Just modify the terms of the loan. I can apply for and get a car loan in 15 minutes. This shouldn't be that much harder. It was poorly planned and implemented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The program is about 10 months or so old. It was another one of those things that they shoved through without even thinking about it or how to get it done. We are talking about modifying a loan, not doing a complete mortgage. Title searches and all the other stuff are already done. There is no need for a closing either. Just modify the terms of the loan. I can apply for and get a car loan in 15 minutes. This shouldn't be that much harder. It was poorly planned and implemented.
    Not nearly as poorly planned as the train wreck you call your life.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Not nearly as poorly planned as the train wreck you call your life.
    Sorry to disappoint. I am not homeless, I do not live off the system, I don't sit around doing drugs and turning out crack babies. I have a very good job, a Bachelors degree, in 2011 I'll have a Masters. Yes I hit some bumps in the road. I got through them and moved on. And for that, I am a far better person than the chap who has had it easy all their life.

    I had a plan for life, that didn't include some of the problems I encountered. One of those was to get that education and get that $60K job, I would then be well off. No one told me that when you get that $60K job the government picks your pocket for about 45%. Half of my paycheck goes to support someone elses family. Is that right? I have always had a problem with the notion you make more so you should pay more. What is the sense of making more if you have to pay more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Sorry to disappoint. I am not homeless, I do not live off the system, I don't sit around doing drugs and turning out crack babies. I have a very good job, a Bachelors degree, in 2011 I'll have a Masters. Yes I hit some bumps in the road. I got through them and moved on. And for that, I am a far better person than the chap who has had it easy all their life.

    I had a plan for life, that didn't include some of the problems I encountered. One of those was to get that education and get that $60K job, I would then be well off. No one told me that when you get that $60K job the government picks your pocket for about 45%. Half of my paycheck goes to support someone elses family. Is that right? I have always had a problem with the notion you make more so you should pay more. What is the sense of making more if you have to pay more?
    Those are the same taxes paid by everyone else. Stop making excuses for your own ignorance.

    You have no problem bashing the very system that you sought to protect you when your poor judgement caught up with you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    No one told me that when you get that $60K job the government picks your pocket for about 45%.
    So are you saying that you're paying 45% of your income in wage taxes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Its called a tease, something to get your interest
    Call it whatever you want, but it still doesn't dismiss the fact that the part of the story you left out was the part that contradicts your accusations.



    Thinking that an additional 250,000 people will become eligible in 21 days time for a program several months old is wishful thinking.
    No wishful thinking, just stating that it's a possibility.



    The program is about 10 months or so old. It was another one of those things that they shoved through without even thinking about it or how to get it done. We are talking about modifying a loan, not doing a complete mortgage. Title searches and all the other stuff are already done. There is no need for a closing either. Just modify the terms of the loan. I can apply for and get a car loan in 15 minutes. This shouldn't be that much harder.
    I can get a loan in 15 minutes too, but buying a house is not the same thing as buying a car.

    I agree that this shouldn't too hard, but it also shouldn't be too easy - after all these people got in over their heads by their own hand. At the bare minimum, the process should be the same as refinancing a mortgage - which takes about 30-60 days from application.

    As the article stated, applicants need to make several payments before being converted to a permanent plan. So like I stated, the process probably takes around 6 months to complete. Considering that, the fact that not everybody was already lined up waiting for "the door to open" when the program started 10 months ago and that it's essentially focused on "high risk" applicants, I'm not seeing the "failure" that you are asserting.


    It was poorly planned and implemented.
    And you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how off base it might be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    So are you saying that you're paying 45% of your income in wage taxes?
    Nope, about 30% goes into wages. 7% (plus another 7% by my employer) for the failed SS system taxes. Then there are sales taxes at 8.25%. Then I have property taxes, fuel taxes, registrations fees, fees for hunting and fishing (How come hikers, bicyclists, and cross country skiers get a free ride), and taxes on the utilities I use. I am sure I have left several hundred other hidden fees and taxes out, however U am sure you are smart enough to see we the people are being screwed by our government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Those are the same taxes paid by everyone else. Stop making excuses for your own ignorance.

    You have no problem bashing the very system that you sought to protect you when your poor judgement caught up with you.
    Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right. That very system is a large part of the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I can get a loan in 15 minutes too, but buying a house is not the same thing as buying a car.

    I agree that this shouldn't too hard, but it also shouldn't be too easy - after all these people got in over their heads by their own hand. At the bare minimum, the process should be the same as refinancing a mortgage - which takes about 30-60 days from application.

    As the article stated, applicants need to make several payments before being converted to a permanent plan. So like I stated, the process probably takes around 6 months to complete. Considering that, the fact that not everybody was already lined up waiting for "the door to open" when the program started 10 months ago and that it's essentially focused on "high risk" applicants, I'm not seeing the "failure" that you are asserting.
    The thing is, no one is looking to buy a house, they already have it. What they are looking for are modifications to the loan to make the payments affordable. We are talking simple math that even SCfire would understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right. That very system is a large part of the problem.
    So not a single person that you have ever voted for has ever passed a single tax? If you ever voted for a politician that put a new tax or tax increase on the book, then you are part of the problem as well.

    Why don't you do all of us a favor and get off this internet that is supported by tax money, government infrastructure, and is run by a business that caters to government employees?

    More so, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and quit your job. Go run and live on a farm in the middle of nowhere and live of your crops and livestock. Please make sure that you don't ever drive a car, especially not on a road that has ever been touched by government funds. And none of that fancy government supported electricity for you.

    And if you want to go on vacation:

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Nope, about 30% goes into wages. 7% (plus another 7% by my employer) for the failed SS system taxes. Then there are sales taxes at 8.25%. Then I have property taxes, fuel taxes, registrations fees, fees for hunting and fishing (How come hikers, bicyclists, and cross country skiers get a free ride), and taxes on the utilities I use. I am sure I have left several hundred other hidden fees and taxes out, however U am sure you are smart enough to see we the people are being screwed by our government.
    I can't speak to your situation as far as being "screwed by our government", but I am smart enough to know that much of these taxes goes toward things like police, fire, ems, street repairs, snow plowing, a really nice public park, public schools and many, many more things.

    A much smaller portion goes towards those programs for the less fortunate that you hate so much. Yes, there are some problems with those programs, but they do help many, many deserving people too. Personally, I'm not doing too bad, so I really don't have a problem with helping out some to fund those programs. Plus, I've seen first hand the benefit they can provide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The thing is, no one is looking to buy a house, they already have it. What they are looking for are modifications to the loan to make the payments affordable. We are talking simple math that even SCfire would understand.
    And like I said, it's essentially the same thing as refinancing your mortgage. You already have the house and are looking to modify the loan to make it more affordable and it still usually takes 30-60 days to process. Add in the "trial payment period" and the other factors regarding these people and it's reasonable to think this will take longer. Not sure why you can't grasp that simple concept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    So not a single person that you have ever voted for has ever passed a single tax? If you ever voted for a politician that put a new tax or tax increase on the book, then you are part of the problem as well.

    Why don't you do all of us a favor and get off this internet that is supported by tax money, government infrastructure, and is run by a business that caters to government employees?

    More so, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and quit your job. Go run and live on a farm in the middle of nowhere and live of your crops and livestock. Please make sure that you don't ever drive a car, especially not on a road that has ever been touched by government funds. And none of that fancy government supported electricity for you.
    Oh no, I have voted for idiots that have increased our taxes. We have no choice in that matter, all the morons raise taxes because it is easier to raise taxes than cut services. I would like for this country to get back to its roots of freedom and live and let live. Government has become a far to large of a force in our daily lives. From January to May you work for the government. F*** That!!!. FYI the internet is not supported by tax dollars. Might come as a surprise but it is a worldwide thing. (MORON!!!!! ).

    What I see is massive amounts of government waste. Much of it because of f'ed up grant programs. Right in this area we have two major bridges that are in need of replacement. No money for that, but hey, we got money for a rails to trails program so some stupid AZZ granola crunching yuppie has a place to walk. Government waste far far too much money and ignores what is important. Private industry at least has to attend to their core service or go under. Government just raises the taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I can't speak to your situation as far as being "screwed by our government", but I am smart enough to know that much of these taxes goes toward things like police, fire, ems, street repairs, snow plowing, a really nice public park, public schools and many, many more things.

    A much smaller portion goes towards those programs for the less fortunate that you hate so much. Yes, there are some problems with those programs, but they do help many, many deserving people too. Personally, I'm not doing too bad, so I really don't have a problem with helping out some to fund those programs. Plus, I've seen first hand the benefit they can provide.
    You might want to do some research. Health and Human services (aka Welfare), Military, and Social Security each account for 30% of the budget for a total of 90%. All of the other programs and services are minuscule.

    Sure some of my money goes to support some good things as you listed. However, I don't feel I am getting the best value for my dollar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    And like I said, it's essentially the same thing as refinancing your mortgage. You already have the house and are looking to modify the loan to make it more affordable and it still usually takes 30-60 days to process. Add in the "trial payment period" and the other factors regarding these people and it's reasonable to think this will take longer. Not sure why you can't grasp that simple concept.
    That is stupid. A mortgage includes doing all kinds of things to assure you can buy the property and that the transfer is legal. All of that stuff is what takes all the time. Doing the loan is a 1 hour process tops.

    Regardless of the reasons, this is a program implemented by Obama that was to save 3 million home owners. It has failed to live up to its billing just like the failed stimulus program. That program was to keep unemployment below 8%, and here we are at 10.2% with liberal states like Michigan (15.1%) and Californian (12.5%) leading the way. As can be seen form the data, the liberal way isn't working .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Sure some of my money goes to support some good things as you listed. However, I don't feel I am getting the best value for my dollar.
    And what do you base that "feeling" upon? How do you know those services would be provided better if done by a private entity?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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