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    I work for the city of Lasper located in Alabama.we are in the process of trying to get paid for every hour we work. i was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions that may help us out? i know alot of departments have fought this and won so just curious if there was any negatives that go along with it (speaking as if we win). any info and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



    to all be safe...............


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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboyc6 View Post
    I work for the city of Lasper located in Alabama.we are in the process of trying to get paid for every hour we work. i was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions that may help us out? i know alot of departments have fought this and won so just curious if there was any negatives that go along with it (speaking as if we win). any info and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



    to all be safe...............
    I'd suggest contacting your local Department of Labor, Wage & Hour office.

    A couple of negatives of the top of my head would be.............

    * strained labor relations with your employer
    * potential future harm from the financial impact on your employer, especially if substantial back wages are owed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboyc6 View Post
    I work for the city of Lasper located in Alabama.we are in the process of trying to get paid for every hour we work. i was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions that may help us out? i know alot of departments have fought this and won so just curious if there was any negatives that go along with it (speaking as if we win). any info and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



    to all be safe...............
    I would suggest you drop that notion. You ask to get paid for every hour and they will no longer let you sleep on the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I would suggest you drop that notion. You ask to get paid for every hour and they will no longer let you sleep on the job.
    you don't even have a clue, if you aren't a career person how could you even fathom having a opinion. Oh I finally get it,you are jealous of George W. (and it ain't Bush. It took him over 10yrs to attain a 10,000 post status, are oyu trying to do it in 2.5?

    Jonboy check with your state wage and hour and see if they are actually doing anything wrong before you get too deep, they may be doing things exactly correct according to your state laws.

    In KY here we had a not-so-recent issue that happened in Louisville, that when things really got looked at affected the majority of the career departments in some fashion, it was our state incentive. The federal judge, looking at how everything was calculated looked at the state training incentive also and decided it was incorrectly calculated in the regular overtime scheduled. What it amounted to was ( I think ) just under $2.50 on 32hrs of overtime every two weeks. I know it doesent seem like alot but annually it was around $1800.00 and for a 5yr backpay (limit can be filed for) amounts to around $9200.00. Money we worked for and were due. I will be the first to say I dont want anything more than I worked for, period. Some cities have paid, some haven't, some were paying correctly. Some people may not think the $9200 adds up to much unless you look at what effect it has towards your retirement, you worked for it. Has it caused a strain on the work relations, the economy has been a strain on everyone without a doubt. One thing that you must take in to consideration 8 yrs ago I made my city aware of the potential, 3ys ago the KY league of cities said "yes it was calculated incorrectly cities you do owe it but don't do anything we can beat the FD and still win". Guess what, they didn't and they had a chance 3yrs ago to say we inadvertantly calculated the OT wrong we are having a difficult financial time, would you settle for $ X less, you know we would have at the time. A lot of guys across the state took an approach, the cities could have worked with us and got it behind everyone but since no one would, pay us. Louisville had more wrong with their OT calculations than the state incentive and would have settled for a "few" million dollars early in this but I think I read in the paper a few weeks ago the settlement alone was hovering around the $60 million mark, not counting legal fees and retirement that must be paid in.

    Instead of blaming the departments for making things correct, citizens should really look at the politicians that say "I will fight to the end". They really should look at holding them accountable when the city has been found guilty and have to back pay $500,000 but instead will spend 10 yrs fighting a OT issue 2 to 3 million and in the end still have to pay the $500,000 now with interest, when in the beginning paying the $500,000 and getting the issue behind the city and its employees and moving towards the future.

    I know this was a long post and appologize for it but thats how detailed and long some things might get for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboyc6 View Post
    I work for the city of Lasper located in Alabama.we are in the process of trying to get paid for every hour we work. i was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions that may help us out? i know alot of departments have fought this and won so just curious if there was any negatives that go along with it (speaking as if we win). any info and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



    to all be safe...............
    Doing a little research to determine the current status I ran into problem right away. I can't find anything about LASPER ALABAMA.

    If have to conclude you meant to type JASPER.

    You don't give us enough info about the City or Dept to provide a detailed answer, so this answer will be somewhat limited based on data collected.


    Here is what I found about JFD

    29 Fulltime
    9 FF per shift out of 3 Stations
    5 Apparatus - 100 calls per month

    Population is about 15,000 in 30 sq mi Service Area.

    On the surface it looks like you guys are paid fulltime.

    If you mean paid for every hour, the city must be deducting some hours during sleep and meal time.
    Shift is 24.5 / 6 hours deducted = 18.5

    As long as the shifts are 24.5, the city can deduct sleep and meal hours under FLSA. It is assumed that if the sleep cycle is interupted, then hours are paid. Occasional meal hour interuptions will be tolerated without compensation.

    If you mean paid for overtime, that is another issue.

    I can't find enough budget data for the city or the dept, but it does appear that revenue are down about 3%. That isn't bad considering. I see that some belt-tightening has occured, but no drastic actions that I can find.

    In this economy you may not want to start a big discussion over 'every hour' if it is just a few marginal hours each pay period.

    With the unemployment rate in ALABAMA is reported at 10.9 and 11.9 in Walker County, you might consider yourself lucky to have a job at the moment.

    It doesn't appear that the city has cut services due to declining revenue, so you guys are lucky if you avoided layoffs or furloughs.

    I don't see anything about a Local, but if one exists, that is where you guys need to start. Look at the contract, if one is in place.

    You might consider putting this discussion to the side until the economy improves and revenues return to pre-recession levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I would suggest you drop that notion. You ask to get paid for every hour and they will no longer let you sleep on the job.
    You are a professional idiotboy.

    Get out of here and let the firefighters do the talking and you can do the walking.

    Our department works a 24 hours shift. We get paid for the time we are are the fire house. In other words we work a 48 hour work week. If we aren't running our members do get to sleep and OH YEAH, they get paid for it too. Also they are being paid when they eat and take a class.

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    If we aren't running our members do get to sleep and OH YEAH, they get paid for it too. Also they are being paid when they eat and take a class.
    Jonnee: I hope that wasn't a shot at me.

    I am glad you get paid for every single hour, but that doesn't help this guy.

    I get paid for every hour I work and I don't have to sleep at the station... but I do occasionally to stay focused about what the crews needs are. If I don't like it, they probably don't either. But this isn't about me or you. My situation is not the same as his, and all I can do is offer advice based upon what his states and what I discovered by investing some time.

    I was suggesting that in some situations, sleep and meals times can be deducted, as per FLSA. I did not say that all did. The Local usually negotiates the best contract possible and many are lucky to not have these permissible deductions.

    As long as the shifts are 24.5, the city can deduct sleep and meal hours under FLSA. It is assumed that if the sleep cycle is interupted, then hours are paid. Occasional meal hour interuptions will be tolerated without compensation.
    Now is there anything else that you do not agree with in my post?
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    At one time years ago the aumblance was paid for daytime hours and then paid if they caught a call "after hours." If they was out for a certain amount of time they was paid for the full 24. They have since switched to being paid a full 24 hours.

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    You're away from home and you're required to be in a constant state of readiness, therefore you ought to be compensated. Your dept likes to have it's cake and eat it too so to speak since they only pay you when you run calls at night. It's not like you're POC from home. Even if you were, you still couldn't leave the area.

    If you organize and demand to be paid for the entire shift, admin may threaten to cut your hours by restructuring the schedule, along with some layoffs. This may be what Scarecrow was getting at, but probably not. The ICMA advocates System Status Management, which seeks to make do with the minimum amount of personnel/units possible to cover the district. They want shifts to be reduced to 12-16 hours or so, with some nighttime brownouts, staggered start times, and roaming units/constant relocations for coverage. The idea is to squeeze the most productivity out of each employee. More units during peak hours, and a few nighttime units, personnel who only work at night, who are guaranteed to be shuffled around to cover areas that run down units on the overnight would otherwise be covering.

    Don't worry though, the Local 2974 shot that garbage down:

    http://www.iaff726.org/docs/ICMApg16.pdf

    SSM being used to varying degrees in EMS, the Richmond Ambulance Authority is one such example. All it does is burn out employees and raise costs for the employer. These agencies that use SSM typically aren't union, get my drift? In case you didn't get my drift, unionization (political only for a right to work state, but effective nonetheless) will equal the playing field between employee and employer, to help keep you from getting jacked on such issues as being POC at night.

    If admin threatens to reduce staff, reduce hours, or go with a version of SSM, the best defense is to point out that more personnel would actually need to be hired to maintain safe staffing levels, and each of these new employees would cost the local gov't insurance, medical benefits, retirement, sick time, paid time off, retirement, gear/uniforms, etc. Having 24 hour personnel for a 56 hour workweek (or 48 or whatever) is markedly more cost effective than cutting hours back to 40 and hiring more people to cover the new schedule gaps.
    Last edited by edpmedic; 12-17-2009 at 11:48 PM.

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    You're away from home and you're required to be in a constant state of readiness, therefore you ought to be compensated.
    Well played sir. Bravo.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboyc6 View Post
    I work for the city of Lasper located in Alabama.we are in the process of trying to get paid for every hour we work. i was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions that may help us out? i know alot of departments have fought this and won so just curious if there was any negatives that go along with it (speaking as if we win). any info and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



    to all be safe...............
    As I re-read this it really doesn't explain the issue or the problem.

    What do you mean by "get paid for every hour we work"? According to FLSA you cannot volunteer to work where you are paid to work. So they would have to pay you for hours worked. My first impression was that you were getting paid for a 40 hour work week with sleep time not paid unless you were on a call. After looking again at the post I really don't know what you are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    As long as the shifts are 24.5, the city can deduct sleep and meal hours under FLSA. It is assumed that if the sleep cycle is interupted, then hours are paid. Occasional meal hour interuptions will be tolerated without compensation. .
    Under FLSA sleep time and meal times can only be deducted if an agreement is made. For sleep time, if you work over 24 hours, you must be afforded 5 hours sleep in an 8 hour period. This does not mean undisturbed sleep, just down time....for example, if you had 2 calls after midnight at varying times, but still were in quarters for over 5 hours, sleep time could be considered for non pay.
    For meals, if you work 24 hours or less, then meal times could be negotiable. Either way, "negotiable" in both sleep time and meals means both parties must agree.

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    Under FLSA sleep time and meal times can only be deducted if an agreement is made. For sleep time, if you work over 24 hours, you must be afforded 5 hours sleep in an 8 hour period. This does not mean undisturbed sleep, just down time....for example, if you had 2 calls after midnight at varying times, but still were in quarters for over 5 hours, sleep time could be considered for non pay.
    For meals, if you work 24 hours or less, then meal times could be negotiable. Either way, "negotiable" in both sleep time and meals means both parties must agree.
    Correctly stated, again, as it was previously.

    IT DEPENDS UPON THE CONTRACT.

    When towns/cities are cutting budgets trying to stay in the black, I do not think any push like this is going to be met with open arms, and may backfire on the members.

    I cannot find any info as to whether these guys have Local, and we still don't know what hours he was refering too. So everything we discuss is pure speculation.

    jonboyc6: There are many trying to help you out here. Are you still with us or are we waisting our time.
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    Guys, do yourselves a favor. Search for posts by a user name of JohnBoyCan. He is a pot stirrer and he is sucking you in, now under a new name.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Thumbs down Waist of time

    That's what I figured.

    Thanks Bones





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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Guys, do yourselves a favor. Search for posts by a user name of JohnBoyCan. He is a pot stirrer and he is sucking you in, now under a new name.
    That Bastage!!!! How dare a pot stirrer come back under another name!!!! :EEK:

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    That Bastage!!!! How dare a pot stirrer come back under another name!!!! :EEK:
    uh yah.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    That Bastage!!!! How dare a pot stirrer come back under another name!!!! :EEK:
    You are a f u c k i n g idiot.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Talking Uhhh..........

    Quote Originally Posted by LT2387 View Post
    Oh I finally get it,you are jealous of George W. (and it ain't Bush). It took him over 10yrs to attain a 10,000 post status, are you trying to do it in 2.5?

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    this is my first post so i can assure you i'm no pot stirrer. that being said i did mean to type JASPER< AL and i was talking about getting paid for 40 but we don't even get compensated for calls ran after that. all of this info is greatly appreciated thank you very much. oh yeah good job on coming up with that info about our dept i'm guessing you went to our cities web site, all of its correct except the number of apparatus we run 2 pumpers and 1 rescue just to correct our honest politicians in my city

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