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    Default Does FEMA want us at FF2

    Question for you guys.....Does FEMA require us to be at FF2 to be compliant? I know you must be at FF1, but will I need to send our dept through FF2 to keep getting grants from FEMA? Any help would be great!

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    Not yet. FF1 within 24 months is fine for now, but if you want to be ahead of the game for what i would anticipate to be the next move...

    earl

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    Just out of curiosity, what if some of our members haven’t completed FF1? Most of our have but a few have not. Should I not count them as members? All of our interiors have FF1, not some of the exteriors and drivers. Do they not count as active firefighters? What about newly recruited members under SAFER, if we can’t get them through FF1 do they not count as recruited members? THANKS.

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    We had about 9 guys trained to the 1403 basic level, just this past year upgraded to FF1, easy transition using online FF1 classes. We built in FF2 training in this years Ops grant (which I received a 1199 today). All of our newer guys, 3 yrs and newer have been trained to FF2.

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    Where is there online firefighter 1? I am interested but not sure how you could meet all the objectives.

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    If they are on your roster, responding to calls--FF1 will be the minimum standard to work toward. New members should be there within 24 months. Grants notwithstanding, the liability to your department for NOT providing training to reccommended standards is great today. And, in a few cases, that liability has extended to the personal assets of chiefs and officers. Even if a lawsuit is not successful, the expense of defending is great.

    Bottom line--i'd sure encourage FF1 within 24 months, and FF2 within 2 years after. Good idea to get everybody there. Is it 25 years of experience or is it 1 year of experience 25 times??

    earl

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    nfpa 1001 ff1 is getting to be an issue. Many volunteer departments will be hard pressed to have 100% 1001.

    your state's SFM office is going to come into play here as well.

    What should be acknowledged is the 'effort' to achieve FF1.

    REQuiring FF1 is going to have a lot of blowback if anyone gets to high horse about who has to have and how much.

    Maybe anticipate certain conditions to be met, but unless they are willing to pay for the training and assist with the certifications, and understand each states difficulites and inefficencies, along with the varying degrees of each departments capabilities in getting firefighters certified, this issue will turn into a lot of problems.

    Departments that work hard at having their membership attain FF1 have a training structure in place to help their members get certifications.

    Some departments and areas do not have such a structure in place. There are many reasons why. Distance to facilities, many reasons.

    So I will say,,,, NO! Even though they say you will have to have NFPA 1001 to touch a hose. Some states are going to say, only for an interior attack. There will be a fight about this is what I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    nfpa 1001 ff1 is getting to be an issue.
    .
    It is an issue because there is no National standard for what FF1 and FF2 are. Requirements vary from state to state as to what they will certify.

    The only national standard for FF training is NFPA 1001, and until there is some national certification put out that is all FEMA can go on...

    Now, I would certainly hope that even the smallest volly's training standards intigrates NFPA 1001 before they let someone into a burning building.

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    Here in Iowa
    Minimum training standard. On or after July 1, 2010, any member of a fire department shall have completed the training requirements identified in the job performance requirements for the Fire Fighter I classification in NFPA 1001, Standard for Fire Fighter Professional Qualifications, 2002 edition, chapter 5, prior to engaging in structural fire fighting. Each fire department shall identify its members who are or will be engaged in structural fire fighting and shall ensure that any member engaged in structural fire fighting on or after July 1, 2010 shall have completed the training requirements specified in this rule prior to engaging in structural fire fighting.
    NOTE: Fire fighter certification is not required to meet this requirement. Training to meet this requirement may be provided by the fire service training bureau, a community college, a regional fire training facility, or a local fire department, or any combination thereof.

    Exception 1: A fire fighter who received training which complied with the job performance requirements for the fire fighter I classification contained in an earlier edition of NFPA 1001 shall be deemed to have met this requirement, provided that records documenting the training are maintained in accordance with rule 661--251.104(100B).

    Other training. Any member of a fire department, who serves in a capacity other than structural fire fighting at an emergency incident on or after July 1, 2010, shall have received training based on the duties the member might perform at an emergency incident. Training to meet this requirement may be provided by the fire service training bureau, a community college, a regional fire training facility, or a local fire department, or any combination thereof.

    661-251.103(100B) Continuing training: After July 1, 2010, fire department members shall participate in at least 24 hours of continuing training annually, selected from the following subject areas.
    • Personal Protective Equipment and respiratory protection
    • Structural firefighting techniques including Standard Operating Policies or Standard Operating Guidelines
    • Ground ladders
    • Hose and hose appliances
    • Ventilation
    • Forcible entry
    • Search and rescue techniques
    • Firefighter safety
    • Incident Management System or Incident Command Systems
    • Emergency vehicle driver-operator
    • Hazardous materials first responder - operations level
    • Emergency Medical Service (EMS) training
    • Additional training based on standard operating procedures or standard operating guidelines
    • Other OSHA related training, such as blood borne pathogen protection
    • Specialty training such as confined space entry, vehicle extrication, rescue techniques, wildland or agricultural firefighting techniques
    • Emergency Response to Terrorism
    • Any other training designed to meet local training needs

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonMNChief View Post
    Question for you guys.....Does FEMA require us to be at FF2 to be compliant? I know you must be at FF1, but will I need to send our dept through FF2 to keep getting grants from FEMA? Any help would be great!
    I thought FF2 was required for career and comb dept's to apply for the grant.
    Guess I'll go back to the depths of hell and read the program guidance again.

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    We are in Southern MN, and our local tech college handles our training. They came up withe the online FF1 program a few years ago. Still have to meet some Saturdays in a central location for the hands on part, and the test is online too. Works out okay if your guys will have to drive an hour twice a week to FF1 class, but cuts down on the guys getting to know the neighboring depts and their equipment. Good and bad I guess, was really good for the guys that needed to upgrade to FF1. IMHO, classroom is better but the time commitment is becoming great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonMNChief View Post
    We are in Southern MN, and our local tech college handles our training. They came up withe the online FF1 program a few years ago. Still have to meet some Saturdays in a central location for the hands on part, and the test is online too. Works out okay if your guys will have to drive an hour twice a week to FF1 class, but cuts down on the guys getting to know the neighboring depts and their equipment. Good and bad I guess, was really good for the guys that needed to upgrade to FF1. IMHO, classroom is better but the time commitment is becoming great.
    Many of us understand as we too are experiencing differences from one agency to another. AFG wants to know NFPA 1001 certifications and what your future efforts to achieve 1001 are. But no matter what demands they are making on the volunteer service, the time demands to make ends meet will always outrank what any official stomps his feet about or thumps his chest while shouting about what needs to be done.

    Frankly they are shouting at the end of the line (us) and failing to see how many other lines are trying to get in ahead of them.. They are desperate to regulate us and are failing because they are not regulating themselves. How much more out of touch can they be?

    We had to spend three hours at our nuclear plant last night because the NRC and a host of other agencies are requiring them to before the end of the year.

    Soon small departments will be spending the bulk of their fee time on the fire service. Frankly I can see it would be far cheaper for them to have a national fire service station where each volunteer department is now. Far, far cheaper. That is if they were made to operate on the same budget that we do.

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    Wouldn't it be nice if we had a national certification system?
    FF/Paramedic

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Wouldn't it be nice if we had a national certification system?
    Only if those sending down certifications were required to attain it as well. Everyone of them, and on their own time too.

    But what the heck. Everyone is telling everyone how they should eat, what car to drive, how to act, etc. Saving your own life might as well be one too.

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    Volunteering is becoming harder and harder every year. You must be x,y,z and have X amount of CEUs. Oh, did we tell you that is on your dime and time?
    FF/Paramedic

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    I know in WI when you get certified FF1 and FF2 there is an IFSAC sticker on the paper that meets some kind of a national standard. With the grants I belive they want you to work towards getting everyone to a FF1 level, and if your not money will be provided to help you get there. In WI for ff classes its paid for by the state and can be put on at your dept or local college. FD are responsible for covering cost of books. I would like to know how other states do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    I know in WI when you get certified FF1 and FF2 there is an IFSAC sticker on the paper that meets some kind of a national standard. With the grants I belive they want you to work towards getting everyone to a FF1 level, and if your not money will be provided to help you get there. In WI for ff classes its paid for by the state and can be put on at your dept or local college. FD are responsible for covering cost of books. I would like to know how other states do it?
    Here in MN, we pay for the course, which the 120hr FF1/FF2 is the norm now down here. Course then written test. Can have the State come down and the guys can certify FF1 or FF2 by passing their practicals and the written exam.

    We are all finally at FF1, anyone trained to 1403 Basic has been upgraded.

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    In Georgia the minimum requirement for a volunteer is Modular 1 w/live burn now they just changed that not to long ago to Basic Volunteer Firfighter W/ Live Burn. Supposibly with eaither 2011 or 2012 they are sapose to change the volunteer requirements to where all new volunteers coming into a volly department must get at least FF1 to even touch a hose line. Now on career departments you must have FF1 maintain 24 hours of state training do your state PAT test and do your FF Task book which seems to be getting thicker and thicker as the years go by As far as volunteers if you got to get this training well in my part of the woods its on your dime unfortanitly now my question is since we only have 2 State and National Registered FF1's on our roster at my volunteer department and the rest just basic ff's does that push us out of the running for this year and the next years AFG grants?????????

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    Angry RANT! Earthquake compounded

    In the volunteer forum a few weeks ago I began a semi rant about achieving certifications and wanted a regional application for all my seven fire departments within our mutual aid association.

    Then Catch22 revealed that he had a related plan that he wanted too and still is promoting. It had to do with training and achieving FF1. His SFM office turned it down if I remember correctly. His plan was very inspiring and enlightened, I thought.

    In our county, We have had 1 NFPA 1001 FF1 class which started over four years ago. In that class were 19 students. Now a few did drop out which always happens. We were able to get 1(one) certification out of that class. ONE. That is terrible and I began my journey to find out how to solve this. I wish I could go into more detail and to how many people I have communicated with concerning this problem, but it would take forever. A year ago December 12th the state fire marshal head of training called me at 7:30pm in response to an email I had sent him. We talked for over an hour about this problem. I kinda thought we were making some headway. Got another 55 year old member to take the FF1 class at a department 35 miles away twice a week. Deer were a scary problem for that class. Anyway that enrollment was to satisfy our grant agreement. This was to keep us 'compliant'.

    Now it was not taking the class that was the major problem. It was mostly the testing. Scheduling of the tests and the order in which the testings took place. Where was also a problem. M<any of the testors did not have the same priorities in their ppractical and live fire. There were differences. Several written exams were scheduled at our state capitol's tech college/fire school which our students had confirmations only to show up after an hour and a half drive and find that the testing site had no idea a test had been scheduled. Two times in a row!!!
    When taking the practical, if a student fails any one section, they are escorted off the facility. This greatly reduces the students ability to retain what they have learned and makes them retest over everything again. THIS in a period of DEMANDS OF CERTIFICATIONS. WHY CANT THEY FIGURE THIS OUT. If they pass fail one section of the practical, let them continue on and test on another section of practical and let that section count towards certification.

    Let them take the written exam if they wish before taking the practical exam if they are ready for it. Get past this gotta be in order crap. Lets get these men certified. I should say, Lets help get these men certified and quit putting these obstacles in the way.

    I had the director of the college's fire school tell me it is the fault of the departments training officers. I did let him have it and got him to see the other side, but with a little more thought on his statement, I too could see his point and it highlighted something.

    For these departments with programs to achieve FF1 to become a full member after a certain time, I noticed that many have a training officer already holding a FF1 and often is an associate to the SFM in some capacity. Many rural departments do not have an officer who can assist the trainee when testing. This does compound the problem and hurts the candidates ability to achieve certification. So I do see this as a holdover from some of the old days of apathy and complacency.

    BUT, if all these federal agencies are going to be piling on about certifications. And insurance companies and state emergency management demanding non stop NIMS,,, OR ELSE. Then there is going to have to be serious OTHER changes involved.

    Identify what the problem is and help eliminate it.

    (WE actually had an earthquake here last night with the epicenter 9 miles away. Weird and got me busy)

    So, I desire a training grant like a regional application to HIRE an instructor and an assistant for one year. To hold classes and who can train the student to pass the practical exam. For our entire mutual aid members and any from the surrounding counties. The goal is to get a PILE of FF1 certifications, but more improtantly, to get training officers installed thoughout the member departments who can then take over the load for each new candidate that joins their department. Then they can then install in their rules that a new member must achieve FF1 certification and passed on and so forth.

    I thought $90,000 for the instuctor. $50,000 for the assitant and maybe $25,000 or more for expenses and program set up.

    That is what I think it would take. Any ideas which grant would qualify?

    I gotta check for damage (again, maybe in a few hours). Will they disqualify our costs since our county is not fully complicant in certain areas.

    Sorry for the rant, but getting a little heated at those other departments that thump their chests about you don't have any excuse, your just lazy. They're obviously about lackingl logic as much as our operating budgets are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Wouldn't it be nice if we had a national certification system?
    Yes....

    I also understand FEMA wanting a certain level of training to be achieved by all FF's as a string to getting an award. There needs to be a reasonable level of competance and safety achieved prior to sending people into burning buildings with grant funded tools.

    Right now NFPA 1001 is the standard we have..... a national level of FF cert's would add consistency.

    In WI FF's go through 60 hours of Entry level (which is basic 1001) then another 40 of FF1 and another 40 of FF2, which is state funded for volunteers. However, if you aspire to a paid FD then you go through thier acadamy which is seperate of the states training program.... so even in this state the training varies depending on the type of department you are on.... and this is just one of 50 different states.

    Again, I agree with FEMA requiring a training standard prior to awarding grants, the problem is that no one can really determine what that standard is when they use the terms FF1 and FF2.

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    In answer to jams rant, didn't want to quote all of it , The NIMs push is not from Emergency Mangement per say we are just the enforcers by some one elses dictates.
    FEMA has pushed that off on us and if we want to stay in the funding pipeline we have to follow the rules too.
    Trust me I don't like filling out that annual report anymore than you like having to answer to it.

    ps, Jam if you get that pushed thru I want a shot to interview. 90k would be a sizable pay increase for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    I know in WI when you get certified FF1 and FF2 there is an IFSAC sticker on the paper that meets some kind of a national standard. With the grants I belive they want you to work towards getting everyone to a FF1 level, and if your not money will be provided to help you get there. In WI for ff classes its paid for by the state and can be put on at your dept or local college. FD are responsible for covering cost of books. I would like to know how other states do it?
    Iowa has the same certificate. That sticker you refer too is you national certification #

    Same setup in Iowa also as long as you maintain 12 students in the class the state training bureau picks up the cost and dept's pay for books and study guides.
    classes are broken down into modules and once completed then you can take the hands -on and written test. Your allowed 3 attempts to pass the test in ( if I remember right) a 6 month timeframe. If not then you would have to take course all over from the beginning.

    The new FF1 course includes NIMS & Hazmat Op's.

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