1. #1
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    Default Here's One to Discuss...

    I am just going to post this link, let you guys respond and then offer my comments. Let's try to keep it civil and to the point.

    http://backstepfirefighter.com/2009/...d-ventilation/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Proof positive that Sutphen towers (other than the new SPH) are the least user friendly buckets! First you must climb down onto the work surface, you have no platform to put weight on and then when you need to get off in a hurry? And how about the lines onto the roof and into the hole. OK help the brother climbing in, but abandon the water in the vent hole ASAP! Talk about wasting time and resource opening a roof only to push the fire back in? Many other lessons here as well.

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    Default Exterior attack

    I will give the benefit of doubt that there must have been good reason not to use interior attack. From the view provided it did not seem to be so advanced that an aggressive push could not have reached the fire more quickly. That said it is obviously more difficult to get to the seat of the fire and virtually impossible to contain the fire (except to the building of origin) using an exterior attack. The exposure protection seemed to be good. All the comments made by the author seem on the money. I would have liked to see the bucket use their shower to protect the guy on the roof while he was working or have it ready because the results of his vent were predictable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfd732 View Post
    I would have liked to see the bucket use their shower to protect the guy on the roof while he was working or have it ready because the results of his vent were predictable.
    Exactly! That should have been prep'd prior to his egress out of the bucket.

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    For you guys who do alot of truck work (I dont), is it common practice to work off of the tower's supplied air line while OUT of the bucket?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    by the looks of the video I would say that this is an exposure building to the orginal fire building on the b side. the fire burned through the roof and extended through the sofit on the d exposure (the one they cut the hole in). I am just guessing here.

    By the looks of the video I would go interior hook the ceiling or find the steps to the attic and put the fire out using offensive tactics. if the roof is stable enough for us to work on why are we not working under it. We cannot mix ofensive and defensive tactics. Roof vent and exterior hoselines do nothing. we have to put the water at the base of the fire. You can tell by the lack of smoke coming out the 2nd floor window their is little to no fire on the 2nd floor. the fact that smoke is just coming out the eves and no where on the lower levels leads me to believe this. Also you can tell when the fire ignites at the vent hole their is little to no space between the roof and the base of the flames. The flames are starting under the roof. This is not 100% rule however with the other signs i am certain it is a simpile attic fire. I like the fact that they are cutting the roof. That would give the guys on the inside a break. I would like to see a bigger hole and no streams into the vent after the cut. Get in there and put the fire out. The line that is being flowed in the window is doing nothing but damaging property and adding weight to the 2nd floor. Good job on the exposure line on the d side. well placed and effective.

    I would have streatched a line to the attic and have the truck open up for supression. judging by the smoke and size of the building i would streatch a 2.5 for a quicker knock down. before we started hooking ceilings and making a mess i would try to place some covers. We have alittle bit of time. We might take a beating for a min or two whilie the cut is being made however. I feel certain that we could extinguish the fire with a line or two on the inside.

    That is my tactical thoughts on the video. I am not going to arm chair quaterback the task the brothers are preforming. We all know what is wrong in regards how the brother broke the window. how the guy didnt use a hook on the roof. That is the job of their officers to observe their weaknesses and train them to correct them.

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    Ain't how we do it around these parts. But thats there and this is here.
    That being said:

    Take the whole window.
    Use a hook after opening the roof. You need to push the second floor cieling in to properly vertical vent.
    No water in the vent hole, stops ventilation and will steam cook your interior team.
    Why is the engine in the collapse zone?
    Why no interior attack?
    Whats with the air bottles from the 1970's. One word Composite. Wieghs half the wieght.

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    That folks is a preview of fireground operations when we follow all the latest and greatest trends from the safety geniuses. If they have their way that's how we'll all be expected to do it. Dinosaur or not all I can say is the tactics shown here suck!!

    Sometimes tradition gets in the way of progress, but thank God around here the tradition of aggressive interior operations is still alive and well.

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    I dont want to second guess based on the video, but Im a little surprised they aren't fighting this from inside. I'd be interested to see the reasons from the officers at the fire.

    On top of that, if you aren't going to send guys inside why even vent the roof? Theres no point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I dont want to second guess based on the video, but Im a little surprised they aren't fighting this from inside. I'd be interested to see the reasons from the officers at the fire.

    On top of that, if you aren't going to send guys inside why even vent the roof? Theres no point.
    That hole in the roof is a target, lets see how much water we can put through it.

    I got to watch something like this several years ago. The fire was in the attic and the department cut two holes in the roof and went to flowing water. Before very long water started running out the front door, a while later the water running out the front door was about 5 inches deep. At that point I left, I talked to a friend that was there and he told me that they got the fire put out when it got to the foundation.

    From what I can see from the video, this is an attic fire and is an interior fire. The vent crew needs a little training time. Take the whole window out. The roof crew should have had a pike pole and been in the bucket when they opened it up. They should have known that was going to happen and been prepared for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I dont want to second guess based on the video, but Im a little surprised they aren't fighting this from inside. I'd be interested to see the reasons from the officers at the fire.

    On top of that, if you aren't going to send guys inside why even vent the roof? Theres no point.
    Exactly. Being on the roof above the fire is one of the most dangerous places to be, especially when you don't know what your doing. Judging by the 8 minutes of video, I would say that they clearly didn't.
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    I like to think that these are well trained professional crews, so that there is a valid reason why they chose to fight this from the exterior. Something that we can't see in the video.
    Because based on what is seen here it kinda looks like a clusterf***.
    Not sure what the hoseline shooting through the side A window is doing.
    Around here, unless there is some major reason not to, this would have been interior attack, pulling the ceiling, coordinated with vertical vent.
    Anyone know if there is more to the story?

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    Dont forget this is Canada not the U.S. Still sloppy practices though.

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    Many of my points were already mentioned.

    First, choice of tactics. This seemed like it could be handled offensively, but there are lot of valid reasons that they are defensive.

    However, if you are defensive, why are you cutting a vent hole?

    The linked site makes some excellent points, I won't repeat them here.

    I will relay that I've done some truck work, none of it with supplied air (it wasn't an option).

    I've been in a situation like this (where fire came out rapidly).

    I was operating off a mutual aid squirt 15-20 years ago at a fire in a neighboring district. The squirt had a ladder with rails, but by today's standards it would be a service ladder only.

    We didn't realize the roof was slate until we got up there. I was 2nd man and the guy at the tip swaps the saw for the hook with me. So, I'm holding the saw across my lap and i'm belted to the aerial. He's operating off the tip with the pike punching the slate in. The fire comes roaring out of the roof and neither of us could move quick enough. The guy on the tip (relative new guy) starts to climb down over top of me... I also couldn't throw the saw down because I wasn't sure if someone was operating under us.

    We start yelling for the squirt operator to move the stick and after a few hot seconds he finally does (he was not at the controls). We both got a bit warm.

    As I climb down off the squirt, pretty peed off, one of our officers comes over puts his arm around my shoulders and steers me away from the squirt operator... cuz I was probably going to do something that would get me in trouble.

    To top it all off the squirt operator then opens up the squirt in the vent hole!!! While there were guys operating interior!

    The next day, there is a great picture of us, in the flames (or almost) and the caption is, "Local firefighters saved by fire truck operator".

    Talk about insult to injury.
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    I hate not knowing "the rest of the story."

    Anyone know why this was not an offensive fire attack?

    It is definitely hard to conduct a successful defensive fire attack on a building that is not venting fire through the roof or walls.

    Uncooperative building... you just want to use a tactic that will insure its destruction, but the building only wants you to knock down an attic fire.

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    I actually just threw up watching that. To think the american public is so fooled into thinking that when they call the fire department, the guys who show up know how to handle the emergency. Good lord. No wonder why insurance rates are so high- the adjusters watch YouTube!

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    If you read my earlier post you would realize this is Canada not the U.S.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedawg View Post
    If you read my earlier post you would realize this is Canada not the U.S.
    So what? You think that doesn't happen in the US?

    Sure it does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedawg View Post
    Dont forget this is Canada not the U.S. Still sloppy practices though.

    Canada has cone heads too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    However, if you are defensive, why are you cutting a vent hole?
    Missed this back in December, but I'd say cutting the roof is a defensive tactic when you have tight exposures. If the FD doesn't vent heat, smoke, gases and fire up, it will travel laterally. Lateral fire travel will cause much greater problems with exposure protection. With a good vent and exposure protection it would be possible, though not our first choice, to burn the building down while protecting the exposures. Which other than the latter point, it looks like this FD was doing.

    On the air supply: our tower doesn't even have it! We carry two 60 minute SCBA cylinders for the bucket operator(s) for defensive ops in case they need air at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Missed this back in December, but I'd say cutting the roof is a defensive tactic when you have tight exposures. If the FD doesn't vent heat, smoke, gases and fire up, it will travel laterally. Lateral fire travel will cause much greater problems with exposure protection. With a good vent and exposure protection it would be possible, though not our first choice, to burn the building down while protecting the exposures. Which other than the latter point, it looks like this FD was doing.
    Okay, that makes sense. Can't say I've ever seen or heard of it done for that reason.

    Seems like a lot of risk when a couple of exposure lines are going to have to be placed regardless.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    One minor thing that makes this slightly less unsafe, is that chances are you can cut a quick smaller hole and it will grow on its own. Works well with bucket cuts where you don't have to leave the actual relative safety of your aerial device. Of course this would not be the case with the Sutphen product in the video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    One minor thing that makes this slightly less unsafe, is that chances are you can cut a quick smaller hole and it will grow on its own. Works well with bucket cuts where you don't have to leave the actual relative safety of your aerial device. Of course this would not be the case with the Sutphen product in the video.
    I guess I was having a hard time looking at it this way, since with most defensive fires you stay off the roof because A: the fire is burning too intense under it to risk it and B: if it is burning that hot it will break through on its own anyway.

    I see what you're saying though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I guess I was having a hard time looking at it this way, since with most defensive fires you stay off the roof because A: the fire is burning too intense under it to risk it and B: if it is burning that hot it will break through on its own anyway.

    I see what you're saying though.
    Certainly not a primary tactic and without some forethought. As with anything it must be tactically sound for the situation presented. Fire in the sky is beautiful, I never understand why so many try to stop it.

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    Thanks for bring this one back up. Forgot about it, and it made for some good laughs here at the station. My Lieu came in about half way through, looked at it for a second and stated "Wow, they're f#@king that football hard," before he turned and walked away.

    Again, ANYONE know the rest of the story? Thought someone in-the-know would have spoken up by now.
    Last edited by FiremanLyman; 04-07-2010 at 05:25 PM. Reason: spelling

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