1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    7

    Default Bolted Stainless Steel Bodies

    Looking for any info or comments on the Toyne Bolted stainless steel bodies or i understand that Central states has manufactured them for years. We are specing a new truck and they are pushing the bolted instead of welded.
    Last edited by c3smokey; 12-22-2009 at 08:47 PM.

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    My limited understanding of bolted vs. welded SS is that the bolted offers easier body damage repairs and allows some flex over the length of any given line. The welded allows for nicer looking seams, straighter lines, but may crack over time when subjected to bumps and bangs over the road.

    Toyne offers both as well and we chose welded over bolted, but cannot really account for the reason behind that decision other than not having discussed it until too late to change our minds.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    710

    Default

    Bolted construction requires a less skilled (translation lower paid) work force. Training a worker to use a drill/driver is much cheaper than paying for a skilled welder.

    In the old days, I remember riding a truck with bolted construction, and we had a weekly ritual of tightening loose bolts.

    Are you in an area with lots of road salt or near the coast? That can help sway you decision.

    C6

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    Bolted construction requires a less skilled (translation lower paid) work force. Training a worker to use a drill/driver is much cheaper than paying for a skilled welder.

    In the old days, I remember riding a truck with bolted construction, and we had a weekly ritual of tightening loose bolts.

    Are you in an area with lots of road salt or near the coast? That can help sway you decision.

    C6
    Yes we are in New Jersey about 30 mins west of the coast

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,619

    Default

    Our Toyne is bolted stainless. We are well pleased with it. So far the only issue we had was a leak at one seam. It was taken care of right away and has presented no further problems.

    Toyne uses 5/16-18 bolts with self locking nuts. I don't know what other manufacturers use. I'm sure some others do, too. But I have been told that some use 1/4-20 and some even use 10-24. When you're looking at bolted bodies, that's something you might want to pay attention to.

    Toyne did suggest and we did elect to leave our stainless parts unpainted. The comparment doors are painted because they are aluminum. Since there is no other color on the truck except for the red, it gives a nice appearance.

    With welded construction obviously you have to paint everything. Stainless is notoriously difficult and therefore expensive to paint properly and successfully.

    I suspect that the comment about the weekly ritual of bolt tightening was about a body that was built before the use of self locking nuts was commonplace. Was it possibly a Howe or a Grumman?

    If you're 30 minutes from the shore you're probably an hour or less from us. Come on over and have a look.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 12-22-2009 at 09:16 PM.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    710

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    I suspect that the comment about the weekly ritual of bolt tightening was about a body that was built before the use of self locking nuts was commonplace. Was it possibly a Howe or a Grumman?
    Actually Chief, it was a Ward LaFrance built during the Nixon presidency. When I said back in the old days, I wasn't kidding.

    One manufacturer, I can't remember who, uses bolts with the threads coated with some type of locking sealer. AS the friction heats the bolt, it activates the sealer. Locking nuts are another option.

    I read in another thread that stainless works better in a high salt environment, such as the coast and where they salt the streets frequently.

    C6

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    Actually Chief, it was a Ward LaFrance built during the Nixon presidency. When I said back in the old days, I wasn't kidding.

    One manufacturer, I can't remember who, uses bolts with the threads coated with some type of locking sealer. AS the friction heats the bolt, it activates the sealer. Locking nuts are another option.

    I read in another thread that stainless works better in a high salt environment, such as the coast and where they salt the streets frequently.

    C6
    From my perspective, a Ward built during the Nixon administration is fairly new. They did have a habit of rusting, too. Just ask Phila. The Ward I learned to drive on was a '48 open cab (Truman adminstration).

    It would not surprise me to learn that some manufacturers use Loctite or a similar product. But many of them are anaerobics, meaning that they harden in the absence of air.

    My gut feeling is that I'd rather use (nylon insert) lock nuts because they can be disassembled if need be. Loctited fasteners may or may not be depending on which Loctite was used.

    Our roads here get a fair amount of salt, but not as much as I've seen in parts of the midwest. After 2-1/2 years the truck still looks like new. I get under it quite a bit, too, and haven't seen any corrosion at all.

    Not far to the east of c3smokey's area, the salt is part of the air. The dealer that he is no doubt talking to got us to bring our Toyne to the New Jersey convention in Wildwood this past September. I could taste the salt each time I breathed in.
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 12-22-2009 at 11:15 PM.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    I've got experience on both sides of the Toynes stainless steel boxes, being welded or bolt on. With the welded boxes, they seemed to crack along the weld seams towards the rear of the body. When sent back for repairs, they added stiffeners on them. As for the bolted boxes, we check the bolts every year per manufacturers instructions. None have ever failed a torque test.

    We don't have the salty air, but we do have the salted, brined, and calcium chloride covered roads during the winter.

    Given the choice, I'd recommend getting the bolt on boxes.

    FM1

    EDIT: The nuts used are nylon tipped nuts that help in keeping them where they are supposed to be. If a section needs replaced or repaired, it is a whole lot easier to do, than if they would use loctite red. Using loctite red requires a torch to disassemble.
    Last edited by FIREMECH1; 12-23-2009 at 05:41 AM.
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    600

    Default

    Actually, huck bolts are the best option when using a bolted body design. They don't loosen.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    7

    Default

    My other issue is that one manufacturer is $10,000 higher with the welded compared to bolted . They want us to accept a bolted truck over the other companies welded so they can get there costs down and be in the same money range as the other. I feel like we are lowering our standards to accomadate the other company so they can possibly win the bid. Both are nice trucks but???

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by c3smokey View Post
    My other issue is that one manufacturer is $10,000 higher with the welded compared to bolted . They want us to accept a bolted truck over the other companies welded so they can get there costs down and be in the same money range as the other. I feel like we are lowering our standards to accomadate the other company so they can possibly win the bid. Both are nice trucks but???
    If you're down to a choice between Central and Toyne, there is only one answer in my book: Toyne by a landslide. Our Central Mistake is a POS, has been since day one and problems have been a nightmare to get corrected even after Rosie took them over. Talk to any of the larger FD's buying from Rosenbauer and they'll tell you it's General or nothing, they won't accept a Central States.

    As I said before, I'd certainly consider a bolted SS Toyne knowing what I know now, being put on the spot accidentally while at the pore-build caused us to go with the welded SS. We've had no issues, but some of the thought process behind bolt-up makes sense and with proven ways to keep dissimilar metals apart and bolts tight, it seems like a great solution. You can always ask both to give prices for both welded and bolted construction if it's down to dollars only. But I can't imagine comparing quality and finding we were down to both being equal (Toyne and Central). Look at the fit and finish. You are certainly close enough to CE112 to go see their Toyne. I'd go beg for $10K more if that's what it would take to get the Toyne. But I'd also seriously consider the Toyne bolted body anyway.

    What other spec details can you give us? Chassis? Number of Seats? Pump style and size? Tank size, Foam? etc.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Actually we are between Toyne and Crimson. For Toyne to weld the body they are $10,000 more than Crimson. As i said both are very nice trucks. I mentioned Central States because i was told that they have been building bolted bodies for years and that Toyne has only been doing it for a couple years now. I was interested in long term quality with the bolted. Toyne will weld it but when it comes to the bid process they are going to be more expensive. We would be happy with either of the trucks but i just question myself about allowing the bolted so they can be there with price at the bid opening.
    Truck will be a Spartan Metro Star cab with extended cab, 5 seats, 2000 gpm 2 stage waterous pump, 1,000 gal tank, carry 1000 ft of 5 inch, Multi use truck to do every thing out of. Hurst Moc tool on the front bumper, back body like a rescue type body.
    Last edited by c3smokey; 12-23-2009 at 12:51 PM.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Doesn't HME build a stainless steel body that is huck bolted?

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by c3smokey View Post
    Actually we are between Toyne and Crimson. For Toyne to weld the body they are $10,000 more than Crimson. As i said both are very nice trucks. I mentioned Central States because i was told that they have been building bolted bodies for years and that Toyne has only been doing it for a couple years now. I was interested in long term quality with the bolted. Toyne will weld it but when it comes to the bid process they are going to be more expensive. We would be happy with either of the trucks but i just question myself about allowing the bolted so they can be there with price at the bid opening.
    I think you'll find that the most or all of the additional cost in welded vs. bolted is in the amount of additional finish work needed for the welded body.

    Toyne has been building bolted stainless bodies for about nine years now.

    No matter whose you want to consider or which kind of construction, try to get behind the panels and see how and to what the various panels are attached. Look at the welds. Are things tacked or spot welded, or are there seams. All of these are factors in production costs which, in turn, affect the bid price.

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    20

    Default

    C3Smokey:

    You need to keep some other things in mind when making a decision on purchasing the vehicle that you want. The dealership should be a decision as well as going with the bolted or the welded body.

    If your in Jersey than you are talking about Campbell Supply vs First Priority. I guess you would need to do some homework to see who would provide your department with the best service.

    As far as the Toyne bolted body goes, they use aircraft style bolts and nuts on their body. They offer this product as an upgrade to the aluminum welded body for the same price! Hum? 304 s/s vs aluminum for the same price. You make the call.

    I wouldn't say that you would be allowing them to offer you less, you would be able to redirect that $10K to obtain other options or equipment on your rig. The question is does the bolted body offer the same warranty as the welded body? If it does there would be no question in my mind, I would go with the bolted body and spend that additional $10K somewhere else.

    I know that Crimson offers many variations of s/s (200 series; 300 series and 400 series). Be sure that you are comparing apples to apples.

    As far as the chassis goes it either a Spartan on Crimson & Toyne, and or a HME on a Toyne as well. Since Crimson is a Spartan company I doubt they give you a choice on chassis.

    So your decision stands from the pump back, and then comparing the delaerships. Who provides more through their dealership, ie: location, in house offerings (body shop, paint booths, etc), as well as educated and knowledgable sales staff.

    This is just my honest opinion.

    Have a safe and happy holiday season.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    15

    Smile

    Smokey,

    What has been the history of your department? Have you guys purchased stainless before?

    The reason I ask is that your are looking at a cab made of aluminum?

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    276

    Question $$$

    Hard to believe that an Aluminum welded body was the same price as a bolted S/S body! Has anyone had any experience in getting price differences in the two? I know the benefits but was wondering a price difference.

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    52

    Default Crimson/Toyne

    Not the answer you are looking for however it may be worth mentioning since you are in an area that treats roadways in winter;

    I am under the impression that Crimson stainless truck bodies come with a stainless steel skeleton-structure and Toyne truck bodies come with a regular steel skeleton-structure.

    **Disclaimer** This information may be dated.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 52shelby View Post
    Not the answer you are looking for however it may be worth mentioning since you are in an area that treats roadways in winter;

    I am under the impression that Crimson stainless truck bodies come with a stainless steel skeleton-structure and Toyne truck bodies come with a regular steel skeleton-structure.

    **Disclaimer** This information may be dated.
    I'm staying out of this for the most part, but Toyne offers either a hot-dipped galvanized subframe or a stainless steel subframe. Both offer the same corrosion warranty.

    Regardless of whoever you're looking at for a body, please make sure you're looking at apples to apples. I'm not casting stones, but if you see a huge price difference in what is SUPPOSED to be the same, it usually isn't. I don't care who you're looking at. Have the bidder show you an exact example of the style of construction of the body they're bidding, either in a demo or in service. A brand X stainless body is not likely the same as a brand Y body, no matter how much they want you to think so. Or tour the plant and see them being built.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    52

    Default

    Thanks NPFD801. Thats kinda of what I was getting at. "Apples to Apples".

    Good save.

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    441

    Default

    I don't know how you could end up at only a Toyne or a Central as options. But I'm not sure I'd smile while getting a free Central.

    The one consistant with Toyne is they will, and have built, with every varient of building style, technique, and material out there.

    That is there is no consistancy. If today they are bidding against an E-One then welded SS is the only option that a smart FF would consider. (Pump house framing might be mild steel angle iron but who's looking). If tomorrow bidding against a welding SS body the the only option s smart FF would consider is a SS bolted body. Next week the competition might be Pierce so the smart FF needs extruded aluminum (mill shapes not proprietary extrusions). The consistancy of a woman begining menopause and who PMS. Whatever way the wind blows today to make a sale.

    The big manufacturers at least know who they are and concentrate on how to improve "their" method of production. Pierce with formed, E-One with extruded etc etc.

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 52shelby View Post
    Thanks NPFD801. Thats kinda of what I was getting at. "Apples to Apples".

    Good save.
    Here's a good example: I don't think my friends at Rosenbauer will mind me posting this. General Safety, as we all know, builds a superb product. But they were getting their hind ends handed to them by a competitor that was offering a supposedly comparable stainless body to theirs for a substantially lower price. So they started building a "Silverstar" stainless program body just to be able to bid a similar style of build, and material, as this builder was offering... It was nowhere near the caliber of their standard stainless product. The "star" in the name could maybe indicate who the product was aimed at.

    I think the line has since been discontinued. But to me, the bolted or welded stainless offerings from Toyne, General Safety, Custom Fire, Sutphen and 4 Guys are kind of in a certain class. Others I'm less familar with, and some others, not so much...
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    FFWALT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    357

    Default

    The way Toyne tries to steer customers to buy only what they want to build is one of the main reasons I don't like them. As fireinfo10 stated, there is also no consistency either. It all depends on what they are pushing this week or this month. My dealings with one of their reps didn't help their case either.

    I firmly believe in comparing apples to apples and at time that is hard to do. If at all possible evaluate the specs they submit vs. the one's you sent out and compare each item. It takes quite a while to go through them item by item but it's worth it. We created a evaluation sheet that assigned points for each item to help compare the specs. Big ticket (engine, trans, pump, etc) items or those that were important to us were assigned more points than things like striping. If applicable we had a category for additional points if they exceeded our spec in the size of a compartment for example. All bidders lost some points but made up for it in different areas. The bids that initially looked pretty good didn't rank very well once we went through them all and compared each item. In the end the truck we purchased was not the most expensive or the lowest cost. Because of this process we were able to clearly state to the council why three bids didn't meet our spec. It also made it clear why the low bid was the low bid.

    I'm also not trying to muddy the water here but maybe you should be looking at more than two possible builders. There are a lot of good ones out there. I don't like Toyne but a lot of people do so whatever works for them is fine because it's not my department. Check out some other brands, their support, warranty, etc and maybe you'll be suprised at what you find.

    Good luck.
    Train like you want to fight.
    www.kvfd.net

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post
    The way Toyne tries to steer customers to buy only what they want to build is one of the main reasons I don't like them.
    I don't know who you were dealing with at that time, but all throughout the process of purchasing our new pumper, never, ever did I feel like we were being steered, pressured or badgered one single solitary time.

    And if you have seen pictures of our unit, it is very obviously a 100% custom unit, designed by us; our specs were not written by, or around Toyne, as we had six bidders on our RFP.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT
    The way Toyne tries to steer customers to buy only what they want to build is one of the main reasons I don't like them. As fireinfo10 stated, there is also no consistency either. It all depends on what they are pushing this week or this month.
    I'm seriously interested in if you or fireinfo10 actually own a Toyne, or not.

    I'm with FWD on this one. We spec our own rigs to our needs, not what they want to push, peddle, or pull over on us. If they couldn't do it or get it right, then they would have been out of the process. Thankfully, they can build us what WE want, without argument or hassle.

    As for consistency, all of our pumpers have been bought 3 at a time, for a total of 9, covering 12 years from purchase/delivery dates. One thing we like about the Toynes, is the consistency of the materials used, build, craftsmanship, etc, that went into building us great pumpers. The quality has always been top notch, and support and warranty work has been taken care of swiftly.

    As for fireinfo10, I'd like to see where there is a problem with what and how Toyne builds their bodies. If they are able to compete "apples to apples" against another builder, then that is a plus for them, and a black mark for those that can't. If they offer an option that will save a FD money, yet isn't in said FD's spec, then it's the responsibility of that dept. to kick out the bid. If they don't because of the dollar cost or whatever, that isn't Toynes fault, but that of the dept.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Stainless Steel Bodies
    By FF4020 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-21-2006, 10:06 PM
  2. Stainless Steel or Painted Hydraulic Reels?
    By AC1503 in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-22-2004, 10:20 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-06-2002, 01:23 PM
  4. stainless steel and diamond plate
    By engine10_iaff12 in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-26-2000, 12:55 PM
  5. stainless steel or aluminum
    By LtDanCobbFD in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-18-2000, 12:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register