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  1. #1
    Forum Member stickboy42's Avatar
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    Default Bolting in the rescue world

    I'm looking to see what others do in terms of bolting in a rescue situation.

    We use the Vortex for high directionals and one one of the most challenging tasks with it is securing the feet. I know that many people don't bother with this and that is a topic for another thread but our approach is to secure the feet from moving in all anticipated directions. Sometimes this can be time consuming and potentially time prohibitive to effect a timely rescue. Most often this situation involves smooth concrete and lack of anchors nearby.

    I come from a rock climbing and mountain rescue background and we never hesitated to drill an anchor and put a rescue load on it (obviously following standard bolting practice). It seems that in the urban rescue world setting a bolt is almost viewed as taboo or at least that is my perception.

    What i'd like to do is bolt the flat foot down to concrete. It would be simple and as far as i can calculate easily obtainable with standard wedge anchors. I'm in the process of setting up a test to see what forces we are actually seeing on the feet of the vortex in various configurations (SA and EA) so as to see what size anchors are needed. I cannot imagine that they are going to be beyond the capability of any conventional wedge anchor out there.

    We carry a Hilti TA7A cordless hammerdrill for USAR applications along with a full complement of wedge anchors that would allow for this to easily work.

    What i'm wondering about is whether i'm missing something in some standard or just missing the boat on some physics concept here.... I would love to hear comments on this and see what others are doing because there doesn't seem to be much discussion on it anywhere but the mountain rescue community....

    thanks again,
    mike


  2. #2
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    Hey Stick,
    I would agree that properly securing the AZV feet is sometimes overlooked by some users. I think I remember you saying that you took the instructor AZV course. Is that a 5 day job now? Mine was 3, we worked some long hours to fit it all in. I'm sure you found that the raptor feet will just about anchor themselves into just about any nook and cranny you can throw at them. I find that we end up using the Omni feet most of the time. Or sometimes a combo of the two.

    We made a pair of Omni foot brackets that work well for rooftop parapets and other sharp edge transitions. These don't eliminate the need for hobbling the A-frame or preventing accidentally bumping the front legs over the edge. I'm attaching a pic - hope it works. If your resultant is within the footprint, you're just controlling unwanted movement by lashing the legs. Wedge bolts should be more than enough to counter these forces. You might need a larger wheelbarrow to move your Hilti and bits to elevation. Not counting the need for a power source. Also, we use CMC's born entry-ease as our front tie-back connection. It works great on most structures and doubles as your edge protection for your working lines. The entry-ease is quite strong and we have had no issues once we pulled tension on the easel leg. I've tried to attach a pic of that also.

    When using the AZV as a straight leg on a roadway man hole cover opening, we've used the Hilti to punch sections of re bar into asphalt. We used the large holes in the Omni foot. The re bar sections have caps welded on to keep the feet from climbing off. If its cold, you will need pre drill for the re bar. If you are close to a generator, this was surprisingly quick to do. Good luck on finding a system that works for you. As you know, the AZV is quite stable once it's loaded. As long as your people understand the resultant forces at play, you should be in good shape, even without bolting. Good luck
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  3. #3
    Forum Member stickboy42's Avatar
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    Hi bottrigg,
    those are great comments, exactly what i was looking for...
    the course i took was the 5 day in sedona last year. fantastic course, hopefully will be going to the 7 day offset/highline course in sept this year...

    i like the idea of the omni foot plates you made, that really addresses the force to the rear with smooth parapets like you have in the picture. your plates look to be made of 3/16" SS plate with 3/8" SS bolts welded to them with nuts holding the omni feet to the plates. Correct? As detailed as you can get on the plates would be great, i think i'll make some up at the shop in the near future. any improvements you can think of after using your current ones? it looks like the ones in the lower picture are different than the close of view?

    how are you tensioning the entry-ease in the picture with the green line, is that just hand tight with a prusik holding or are you using a MA to do that? I've not thought about using the entry-ease that way but is seems like it is applicable as long as you are pulling straight back or downward so it doesn't want to ride off the parapet.

    our hilti hammerdrill is actually pretty small and in head to head racing against our large Dewalt D25600 hammerdrill it will drill as fast just obviously not as long. i would estimate you can set 20+ 1/2" (4" depth) wedge anchors on a fully charged battery. Pretty amazing tool actually for bolting. It only weighs 11 lbs. so hauling it around is easy, it's the reason we purchased it recently...our corded hammerdrills are just too big to drag around.

    thanks again,
    Mike

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    Interesting foot plates, I like the idea. As for the entry ease, all you need to do is back tie it so it won't become a drop hazard. It does not need to be super tight at all. We are using 4mm cord to back tie it. We just saw Russ Born last month and that's all he uses too.
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
    IACOJ

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    Stick,
    "As detailed as you can get on the plates would be great"

    We had a racing shop fab the brackets. 3/8SS plate. The pins go out the bottom and were welded top and bottom. We also Rhino lined them. We drilled a hole in the upper part of each pin so we could attach the brackets to the feet with a quick release pin to prevent us from dropping them over the side. I would skip the Rhino next time and just go with a rubber pad similar to what's on the Omni foot.

    "how are you tensioning the entry-ease in the picture with the green line, is that just hand tight with a prusik holding or are you using a MA to do that?"

    In the pic, we are using the born ease for our front tie back. The 8mm rope goes from the born to the foot of the easel leg. I think the guys made some type of truckers hitch here. Mild to no tension. Then you would back tension the easel toward your main system anchor. This puts the easel leg under tension and compression as required by the AZV Gods.

  6. #6
    Forum Member stickboy42's Avatar
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    bottrigg,
    thanks for the detailed info on that. i have one further question that i can't quite make out in the picture. i was wondering if you would be willing to take an up close picture of the foot and how it attaches to the plates? that's the only thing i'm a little unclear about from the original pic. i was thinking of nuts on a threaded stud to hold the feet on but a quick pin seems more appealing and less potential for damaged threads.

    on a side note, have you all looked into the adjustable belay point that RTR is now teaching in the vortex class for dealing with the belay being in a less than ideal configuration during edge transition. i thought it to be a slick way to put the belay through the AHD for the edge transition then lower it to the edge for the operational period. i can send pics if that's not clear. we use an aztek for the raise/lower operation but something else could be configured if you are short azteks.

    -mike

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickboy42 View Post
    bottrigg,
    thanks for the detailed info on that. i have one further question that i can't quite make out in the picture. i was wondering if you would be willing to take an up close picture of the foot and how it attaches to the plates? that's the only thing i'm a little unclear about from the original pic. i was thinking of nuts on a threaded stud to hold the feet on but a quick pin seems more appealing and less potential for damaged threads.

    on a side note, have you all looked into the adjustable belay point that RTR is now teaching in the vortex class for dealing with the belay being in a less than ideal configuration during edge transition. i thought it to be a slick way to put the belay through the AHD for the edge transition then lower it to the edge for the operational period. i can send pics if that's not clear. we use an aztek for the raise/lower operation but something else could be configured if you are short azteks.

    -mike
    I will post a closer pic soon. Please post a few pics if you can of the belay point. Reed was getting ready to publish this info when I took the class. He didn't include it in the class at that time. Are you talking about the temp belay (from the AZV head) during edge transition, or something else?

  8. #8
    Forum Member stickboy42's Avatar
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    the belay point i'm talking about sounds like what you refer to. I'll post a pic of it tomorrow as i'm dealing with my computer crashing today and i'm in the midst of a reformat/reinstall of everything...some files are still defunct...

    the basic idea is that it's an aztek connected to the head of the azv. the edge person extends the aztek as the attendant/litter go over the edge. the belay is running through a carabiner at the working end of the aztek. once the edge transition has been made the belay is now resting on the ground as we've always done in the past. just the reverse of this on the raise....

    mike

  9. #9
    Forum Member stickboy42's Avatar
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    here are some pics of the belay setup:
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickboy42 View Post
    the belay point i'm talking about sounds like what you refer to. I'll post a pic of it tomorrow as i'm dealing with my computer crashing today and i'm in the midst of a reformat/reinstall of everything...some files are still defunct...

    the basic idea is that it's an aztek connected to the head of the azv. the edge person extends the aztek as the attendant/litter go over the edge. the belay is running through a carabiner at the working end of the aztek. once the edge transition has been made the belay is now resting on the ground as we've always done in the past. just the reverse of this on the raise....

    mike
    Mike,
    Great pics. That's a good solution for a difficult belay transition. I don't think you want to take a fall like that with the stokes coming down on top of you. I'm guessing that your knees would bend in the other direction after that. Here's a pic in the same location before the temp belay transition. The attendant is already moving down over the side and the belay line is still several feet above the ground.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickboy42 View Post
    bottrigg,
    thanks for the detailed info on that. i have one further question that i can't quite make out in the picture. i was wondering if you would be willing to take an up close picture of the foot and how it attaches to the plates? that's the only thing i'm a little unclear about from the original pic. i was thinking of nuts on a threaded stud to hold the feet on but a quick pin seems more appealing and less potential for damaged threads.

    on a side note, have you all looked into the adjustable belay point that RTR is now teaching in the vortex class for dealing with the belay being in a less than ideal configuration during edge transition. i thought it to be a slick way to put the belay through the AHD for the edge transition then lower it to the edge for the operational period. i can send pics if that's not clear. we use an aztek for the raise/lower operation but something else could be configured if you are short azteks.

    -mike
    Sorry for the delay,
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  12. #12
    Forum Member stickboy42's Avatar
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    bottrigg,
    great pics, makes the whole thing very clear now...
    -mike

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