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    Default New vs. Demo vehicle

    Quick question and then this thread can drop off the boards:

    We specified that we wanted to purchase a new ambulance, but a vendor offered us a 2009 demo. Can we accept bids for both new and demo vehicles or does it have to be new?

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    Quote Originally Posted by medstudent13 View Post
    Quick question and then this thread can drop off the boards:

    We specified that we wanted to purchase a new ambulance, but a vendor offered us a 2009 demo. Can we accept bids for both new and demo vehicles or does it have to be new?
    My experience has been that if it was a demo and has never been titled with a full new vehicle warranty, then it was considered new.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Just like with a new truck, and probably moreso, make sure you're getting what you want with a demo and check it out closely. We ran into a similar situation with our quick-attack and ended up better for it. The demo would have saved money, but we ended up getting more for our money in the long run.

    Of course, there are those occassions where a demo may get you a helluva bargain on a decked out rig.

    I'm sure it goes without saying, but just make sure you're getting what you want and it's going to last you for as long as you're looking at needing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medstudent13 View Post
    Quick question and then this thread can drop off the boards:

    We specified that we wanted to purchase a new ambulance, but a vendor offered us a 2009 demo. Can we accept bids for both new and demo vehicles or does it have to be new?
    A demo can be a new untitled truck. But make sure before you sign anything to talk to the person who will be your grant specialist [ contact info will come with award notification] and ask for written approval to purchase the "DEMO" vehicle. This exchange can generally be done by e-mail. This could save you much aggravation down the road when they come by for a look see and to check over your records pertaining to the grant. Never modify what you asked for without getting prior approval in writing. They are sticklers about that.

    Again to repeat : Do not get bids prior to your award date and notification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    A demo can be a new untitled truck. But make sure before you sign anything to talk to the person who will be your grant specialist [ contact info will come with award notification] and ask for written approval to purchase the "DEMO" vehicle. This exchange can generally be done by e-mail. This could save you much aggravation down the road when they come by for a look see and to check over your records pertaining to the grant. Never modify what you asked for without getting prior approval in writing. They are sticklers about that.

    Again to repeat : Do not get bids prior to your award date and notification.
    We have not been getting bids. The guy called us about it because he gave us a quote when we were applying for AFG. He wanted to know if we were interested.

    By the way, thank you so much for looking at our specs. It really helped us out.
    Last edited by medstudent13; 12-30-2009 at 09:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    A demo can be a new untitled truck. But make sure before you sign anything to talk to the person who will be your grant specialist [ contact info will come with award notification] and ask for written approval to purchase the "DEMO" vehicle. This exchange can generally be done by e-mail. This could save you much aggravation down the road when they come by for a look see and to check over your records pertaining to the grant. Never modify what you asked for without getting prior approval in writing. They are sticklers about that.

    Again to repeat : Do not get bids prior to your award date and notification.
    Good advice guy. Always CYA!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
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    Quote Originally Posted by medstudent13 View Post
    We have not been getting bids. The guy called us about it because he gave us a quote when we were applying for AFG. He wanted to know if we were interested.

    By the way, thank you so much for looking at our specs. It really helped us out.
    Your welcome.
    Our department bought a salesmens "DEMO" ambulance back in 1995, It turned out to be one of the best trucks I've worked out of in 37 years in the business. We saved over 10k by buying last years demo with about 5k miles on it. It was the truck they took to trade shows so it was very well equipped and was more than we would have specced at the time.

    Please don't take any comments made here as derogative . We just want to make sure you learn how things must be done in order to follow the AFG rules, and to help newbies get through the process.
    We ALL learn from each other.
    Kurt has taught us to pay it forward!

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    Yeah, the document is usually called an MSO or manufacturers statement or origin. Then it gets a title to the first owner. They are always considered new or demo new even if a model year has gone by. Oh that was for boats. Excuse me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medstudent13 View Post
    We have not been getting bids. The guy called us about it because he gave us a quote when we were applying for AFG. He wanted to know if we were interested.

    By the way, thank you so much for looking at our specs. It really helped us out.

    You really need to take a breather and step back about three steps.

    Don't rush into anything just yet.
    Follow the guidelines and get several bids.

    Once it is published who is getting awards you will be getting vendor's calling left and right.Trust me we were one of the first to be awarded an ambulance when the grant allowed them in.
    Take the time now to sit down with all your member's and make a list then do as suggested and send out your spec's. check and double check all warranties and to where do you have to take the unit for warranty work. The electrical module on the dash is very expensive when it goes down and you might have to go 3 states away to have it repaired and be down you proud and joy for a week or two just because of poor after the sale service.

    Make the vendors work for you. Just because ABC ambulance building has a Demo unit so will XYZ. compare apples to apples. Remember the saleperson is a shark and knows your excited to sign the dotted line... It your name on the grant.

    Another suggestion is if you haven't thought of it is the idle bump up. Do really want that thing kicking the idle up why it's sitting in the driveway ? fuel is pricey so I suggest having it manually controlled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Again to repeat : Do not get bids prior to your award date and notification.

    Did the salesperson already knock himself out of the competitive bidding process by given a quote ? Our vendors wouldn't even give us a ballpark figure
    when the grant app began just because of the competitive bidding clause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Yeah, the document is usually called an MSO or manufacturers statement or origin. Then it gets a title to the first owner. They are always considered new or demo new even if a model year has gone by. Oh that was for boats. Excuse me.
    Oh the woes, of a landlocked sailor!
    Kurt Bradley
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtndew21 View Post
    Did the salesperson already knock himself out of the competitive bidding process by given a quote ? Our vendors wouldn't even give us a ballpark figure
    when the grant app began just because of the competitive bidding clause.
    Per the PG:

    Additionally, if a vendor or manufacturer drafts, writes, edits, critiques, or provides any direct consultation on a grant application that vendor or manufacturer cannot submit a bid for that purchase. Likewise, if a vendor or manufacturer drafts, writes, edits, critiques, or provides any direct consultation on a specification to be used for the solicitation for the purchase of a specific product, that vendor or manufacturer cannot submit a bid for that purchase.
    IMHO, a vendor(s) providing a quote for a FD to determine a price range to apply for a grant is not violating the above. Otherwise it would be a guessing game to come up with figures. If the above is occurring, then it is an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    Per the PG:



    IMHO, a vendor(s) providing a quote for a FD to determine a price range to apply for a grant is not violating the above. Otherwise it would be a guessing game to come up with figures. If the above is occurring, then it is an issue.
    The keyword language I would think to look at is bolded here:

    Additionally, if a vendor or manufacturer drafts, writes, edits, critiques, or provides any direct consultation on a grant application that vendor or manufacturer cannot submit a bid for that purchase. Likewise, if a vendor or manufacturer drafts, writes, edits, critiques, or provides any direct consultation on a specification to be used for the solicitation for the purchase of a specific product, that vendor or manufacturer cannot submit a bid for that purchase.


    IMHO I don't think simply providing a ballpark quote in pre-application process constitutes supplying "direct consultation for the prupose of the solicitation".
    Last edited by ktb9780; 12-31-2009 at 10:15 AM.
    Kurt Bradley
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    My 1st point being is Great the vendor has a demo,but so do the others and not to jump at the first "tin Man" that shows their greedy little hand.

    2nd point was don't let the cat out of the hat before the money is in your hands.
    We are not the only reading these boards

    A demo unit is spec'd by the vendor - Would this not mean that they had direct consultation on a specification to be used for the solicitation for the purchase of a specific product ? Especially since they are knocking on the door beforehand.

    And last if the demo is the dream they always wanted then keep your playing hand close to your heart, play the game and not like the world know.

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    Another question:

    I wrote on our application that our vehicle would be permanently removed from service if we were awarded because it is unsafe (non-compliant, no 4WD, and lots of break problems). Can we still trade in our ambulance? Or, does it have to go to the junk yard?

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    If it is in your grant you can sell or trade it but the vehicle can never be used again as an emergency vehicle. So if you trade it or have sealed bids that would be your disclosure to the buyer.

    Another thing is remove warning lights and sirens or whatever you state requires.
    All we did on our unit was remove lightbar,siren and the departments name from our truck.

    As for our Mother Jug's and Speed unit we removed all red and blue lights from it so the new owner just ordered clear lens to replace and ammber on the rear.
    Last edited by mtndew21; 12-31-2009 at 12:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medstudent13 View Post
    Another question:

    I wrote on our application that our vehicle would be permanently removed from service if we were awarded because it is unsafe (non-compliant, no 4WD, and lots of break problems). Can we still trade in our ambulance? Or, does it have to go to the junk yard?
    mtndew kinda hit the high points on this one. There are certain caveats from my understanding that allow you to trade it in (it has to be to a manufacturer/dealer with an agreement and they can perform a total refurb or some crap. Brian highlighted it a few times last year).

    At the same time, you don't have to take it to the junk yard. You can put it up for bid locally. You may have a hunter that could use it for deer camp, someone that wants to convert it for a business (mechanic's truck or whatever), or do whatever.

    We got rid of a 1979 1-ton brush truck we replaced with a grant a couple of years ago and got more than we ever thought we would from bid. The local road district is using it now and loves the thing. We did the same thing with an old ambulance box we were going to mount on a cab/chassis and made more than we thought from a guy that wanted it for a makeshift kennel for his hunting dogs.

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    So you see Medstudent : there are many things to ponder when dealing with AFG grants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    So you see Medstudent : there are many things to ponder when dealing with AFG grants.
    And just when you think you've pondered everything, someone comes along and throws more at you.

    Just remember, you've got a lot of time to do this and get it right. Take the time and get it right and your co-workers and community will be grateful for years to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medstudent13 View Post
    Another question:

    I wrote on our application that our vehicle would be permanently removed from service if we were awarded because it is unsafe (non-compliant, no 4WD, and lots of break problems). Can we still trade in our ambulance? Or, does it have to go to the junk yard?
    From the FAQ's:

    In my application, I indicated that my existing vehicle was unsafe and I would remove it from service. What do I need to do in order to comply with this requirement?

    The unsafe vehicle cannot be used in emergency service. It cannot be sold, donated and/or given to another department. The unsafe vehicle may be traded in, taken to the junk yard for scrap, donated to a museum, relegated to farm use or given to a training academy as long as it will not be utilized for driver training (they could use it for training firefighters to operate the pump). In order to assure that an unsafe vehicle is removed, we'll require the grantee to transfer title of the vehicle to any individual or organization that is not in the business of providing first-responder services.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    From the FAQ's:
    So that begs the question, is a supplier of emergency response vehicles a "provider of emergency services". IMHO I don't think so. They sell to providers of emergency services but they do not themselves provide the services.So the answer to that question would to me be, yes you can trade it in. What is your take on that?
    Kurt Bradley
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780 View Post
    So that begs the question, is a supplier of emergency response vehicles a "provider of emergency services". IMHO I don't think so. They sell to providers of emergency services but they do not themselves provide the services.So the answer to that question would to me be, yes you can trade it in. What is your take on that?
    My take is that yes it can be traded in to an emergency vehicle dealer. BUT they cannot sell it to another emergency service provider as an emergency vehicle . It needs to be taken out of the emergency services market per the PG.

    My experience with used ambulances is that they are not worth much once they get to be more than 10 years old or over 100,000 miles on the clock. We sold our 95 model with 44 k on the clock for 5k this year, which was almost double what was offered in trade in from the dealer. many well used ambulances are sold wholesale to vendors that ship them overseas to places like mexico & south america.

    HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL!
    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    My take is that yes it can be traded in to an emergency vehicle dealer. BUT they cannot sell it to another emergency service provider as an emergency vehicle . It needs to be taken out of the emergency services market per the PG.

    My experience with used ambulances is that they are not worth much once they get to be more than 10 years old or over 100,000 miles on the clock. We sold our 95 model with 44 k on the clock for 5k this year, which was almost double what was offered in trade in from the dealer. many well used ambulances are sold wholesale to vendors that ship them overseas to places like mexico & south america.

    HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL!
    Ed
    Yeo that is what I ahve seen them doing with them or some plumber turns them into a work van for himself.
    Kurt Bradley
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