1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Central Maine
    Posts
    13

    Default Tanker/Tender Grant pump size Question

    We were asked for a 1199 so it looks like we are going to get a grant for a tanker/tender so here is the question. In the grant application it specifies that the pump cant be bigger than 750 gpm in a tanker/tender. Is it allowable to have a manufacturer install a 1250 pump and just de-rate/placard it to 750gpm? The manufactures say it is usually the same price and easier to get a 1250 pump. Also if anyone has a great tanker specification that they would be willing to share that would be great.
    Thanks
    John

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    NW Indiana
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    Anything above 750 is a pumper. If awarded a tanker/tender--can't buy a pumper. They are pretty clear on that.

    earl

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Defiance
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Alton,

    If you have access can you send me a copy of your narrative for the Tanker.

    Thanks



    htfdcapt@roadrunner.com

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Central Maine
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Yea just did a search and see that this topic has been beat to death. Looks like the only option is to install a 1250 pump but only plumb it for 750 and maybe re plumb in the future. I think the 750 and 1250 are the same pump only less outputs.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    RES81CUE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW ARKANSAS
    Posts
    342

    Thumbs down What!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Altonjb View Post
    We were asked for a 1199 so it looks like we are going to get a grant for a tanker/tender so here is the question. In the grant application it specifies that the pump cant be bigger than 750 gpm in a tanker/tender. Is it allowable to have a manufacturer install a 1250 pump and just de-rate/placard it to 750gpm? The manufactures say it is usually the same price and easier to get a 1250 pump. Also if anyone has a great tanker specification that they would be willing to share that would be great.
    Thanks
    John
    I can assure you it it will not be the same price... Not trying to be the grant police but trying to have the company re rate the pump sounds a bit unethical and completely wrong. If you wanted a 1250 gpm you probably should have written for a Engine.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    RES81CUE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW ARKANSAS
    Posts
    342

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Altonjb View Post
    Yea just did a search and see that this topic has been beat to death. Looks like the only option is to install a 1250 pump but only plumb it for 750 and maybe re plumb in the future. I think the 750 and 1250 are the same pump only less outputs.
    Your intake will be a different size also....

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Central Maine
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RES81CUE View Post
    I can assure you it it will not be the same price... Not trying to be the grant police but trying to have the company re rate the pump sounds a bit unethical and completely wrong. If you wanted a 1250 gpm you probably should have written for a Engine.
    Please don't assume that I was trying to be unethicnal. I was actually asking because a manufacturer that we were working with said that they don't sell a 750 pump and re placard is what they usually do. It did not sound correct to me hence my asking

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,001

    Default

    If the vendor is not willing to make the engine the way YOU want it, why mess with them?

    Sounds like another vendor trying to backdoor something they will claim is "better" to make them stick out in the bidding process. Sort of like one I know here in Missouri.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    RES81CUE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW ARKANSAS
    Posts
    342

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Altonjb View Post
    Please don't assume that I was trying to be unethicnal. I was actually asking because a manufacturer that we were working with said that they don't sell a 750 pump and re placard is what they usually do. It did not sound correct to me hence my asking
    Steer clear of that company.. You are the one that will be held responsible if there are any issues not them. I have gone through a few grant "desk" reviews (Audits). The grant specialist that I had to deal with was a retired fire chief. He was a no nonsense type of guy and I knew if something looked fishy he would call you on it. Back to your original question, The pump housing and pump intake will be larger on a 1250 gpm pump then on a 750 pump. If you face a review and you get a guy that knows his stuff that is something he would catch. Its not worth it...

    Just my take on it....

    Marc

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Florida's Space Coast
    Posts
    204

    Post

    Be careful... The AFG Guidance clearly states:

    " the “pumper” category includes: pumpers, engines, pumper/tankers (apparatus that carries a minimum of 300 gallons of water and has a pump with a capacity to pump a minimum of 750 gallons per minute), rescue-pumpers, quints (with aerials less than 76 feet in length), and urban interface vehicles (Type I). Apparatus that has water capacity in excess of 1,000 gallons and a pump with pumping capacity of less than 750 gallons per minute are considered to be a tanker/tender."

    That tells me that the tanker/tender with 750 gpm would be a "pumper/tanker", but you better read the documents yourself, and get a written opinion/approval from an AFG Grant Specialist before you take any action.

    This forum is a great resource for info, but always read the AFG documents yourself, because if someone here gives you info that isn't correct, and you act on it.. it's still on you.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    islandfire03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,598

    Default

    It is my opinion and that of the regional grant specialist from the AFG office that a750gpm pump makes it an engine. We tried to find someone that made a 725 gpm pump. No such luck.

    The AFG rules are very clear and there is zero tolerance for trying to subvert them.
    I heard of someone putting a 1000 gpm pump in and only having two discharges installed with the intent of completing it later. They did get caught and lost the funding for the truck.

    For some reason the AFG folks feel that tankers/tenders should only need a small pump for self fill.
    If you want to accept their funding you have to play by their rules.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Default

    whatever happened to bean counter auditors? A career chief could pick you apart because he didn't like you.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RES81CUE View Post
    I can assure you it it will not be the same price... Not trying to be the grant police but trying to have the company re rate the pump sounds a bit unethical and completely wrong. If you wanted a 1250 gpm you probably should have written for a Engine.
    That may actually depend on how they're doing it. If they've ordered a buttload of 1,250 pedestal pumps (which may be their biggest seller) and build their own manifolds in-house, I could see it happening rather easy. They order a bunch, have them sitting in stock and ready, and then sell you on it with the price "savings" rather than having to order a new one, replacing jigs, etc.

    In a lot of cases, the only difference between pump ratings is the number of discharges. When you're looking at a full-body pump, it's the cost of a valve, the mechanism to open/close it, and a guage. With a pedestal pump, it's the cost of cutting an extra hole and the flange in the manifold that's made in-house, a valve, and a guage.

    This is one of the reasons I'm a proponent of getting the biggest pump your powertrain can handle when you're buying and engine or quint. The cost for more is minimal. You may rarely use it, but when you do it's worth that minimal cost.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    WJVaughn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Dickson TN
    Posts
    1,027

    Default

    This topic comes up every year it seems and it never seems to be clear. Is it 750 plus or up to 750? heads or tails...

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    illinois, and finally about to start construction
    Posts
    96

    Default

    there seems to always be alot of back and forth on this so with my depts we just stuck with a 500 gpm to make sure we were compliant with the guidelines. having to stay with a smaller pump in exchange for a new safe tanker is well worth it.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Central Maine
    Posts
    13

    Default

    I remember in the application the foam tanker/tender that I was requesting stated 750gpm or less pump and that's what I have spelled out in my request detail and in my narrative so hopefully I will not have to go smaller. I guess I will find out for sure when I get the final details.

    Thanks for all the input, I can tell this site will be a great asset in the coming months while we sort this thing out.

    Also still looking for a good tanker specification/rfp I know it wont be exactly what i need but would like to have something for a good starting point. Can be e-mailed to jbelding@midmaine.com
    Thanks
    John

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reed City, Michigan
    Posts
    127

    Default

    John,
    Check your email... my 2000 gallon IHC specs should be there...

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Not having much knowledge about the grants, its pretty funny that they use pump size limitation on a tanker. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. What a terrible requirement. I wonder if the people that wrote up the grant program understood the concept of nurse tankers, where a tanker must be able to pump off its water into an engne, or when a tanker must draft?

    Seems interesting and dissapointing all at the same time. Anyone have an answer as to why?

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Not having much knowledge about the grants, its pretty funny that they use pump size limitation on a tanker. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. What a terrible requirement. I wonder if the people that wrote up the grant program understood the concept of nurse tankers, where a tanker must be able to pump off its water into an engne, or when a tanker must draft?

    Seems interesting and dissapointing all at the same time. Anyone have an answer as to why?
    The way I read the PG, a pumper is a minimum of 300 gallon tank and a minimum 750 gpm pump. If you want a "tanker" with a greater pump size, you need to ask for it under the pumper category and call it a pumper-tanker.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    The way I read the PG, a pumper is a minimum of 300 gallon tank and a minimum 750 gpm pump. If you want a "tanker" with a greater pump size, you need to ask for it under the pumper category and call it a pumper-tanker.
    OK. Does anyone know if this make chances of award any greater or less if you upsize pump on a "tanker"?

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    124

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    OK. Does anyone know if this make chances of award any greater or less if you upsize pump on a "tanker"?
    If you use a pump bigger than 750 GPM, it changes the classification of the vehicle from a tanker to a pumper-tanker, which falls in the pumper catagory on the AFG. An example, if you have a new pumper and do not own a tanker, then a tanker would be a first vehicle of that class. Now if you asked for a pumper-tanker then it would be the second vehicle in that class according to AFG, because you already have a pumper.
    Some of the departments in our county started off writing grants for tankers and then when they were awarded they turned the trucks into pumper with large tanks. That sounds ok, but what they got were trucks that did not operate well as tankers and were so large that they were limited on their ability to work well as engines also.
    My thoughts are that this had something to do with AFG limiting the pump size of tankers. I can see the point of having a large pump on a tanker. It all depends on the way you operate.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    OK. Does anyone know if this make chances of award any greater or less if you upsize pump on a "tanker"?
    I think the chances are the same if you write your justification correctly. If you want to replace a milk truck "tanker" with a pumper-tanker make sure you spell it all out. Your current truck is unsafe since it was not built for the fire service (or whatever other reason you're replacing it) and having a pump will make it safer and more efficient for your crews by allowing you to nurse.

    I think a much of the reason for the pump capacity requirement is money. Two years ago the max award for a tender (>750 GPM) was $200,000 but the max for a pumper was $275,000. It would be difficult to get a 3000 gallon, 1250 GPM Tandem Big Block for $200,000.

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Hendersonville, TN
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Can the department pay for the upgrade from 750 to 1250 with their own funds, would that be allowable?

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    97

    Default

    I don't believe that it is possible to change in this instance since that changes the scope of the award (tender to pumper). Now if you wanted to change from a 2 door tender to a 4 door tender and pay the extra money, that would be acceptable. As petty as it seems, the pump GPM changes the designation of the project.

    It would be the same as receiving an award for a pumper and using it to buy a ladder in the eyes of FEMA.

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reed City, Michigan
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smokediver6102 View Post
    Can the department pay for the upgrade from 750 to 1250 with their own funds, would that be allowable?
    I too wanted to find the $10,000 to upgrade my 500 gpm pump to a 1250 gpm pump on my 2007 tender grant, so I asked my AFG rep and this was her reply... "Mr. Belden, you have two options.. 1) build the truck to the AFG rules and requirements for a tender or 2) build the truck the way you want and when we audit you we will take it away and give it to someone else" ..... so guess what I did!! I now have one heck of a 2000 gallon tender with a 500 gpm pump.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. apparatus grant question
    By Catch22 in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-11-2007, 06:18 PM
  2. Cheshire SAFER grant...this will be interesting...
    By Dalmatian190 in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-13-2007, 12:49 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 07-17-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-18-2005, 11:30 PM
  4. Question on FDNY pump operations
    By BIG PAULIE in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-01-2001, 12:55 PM
  5. RFP's
    By D Littrell in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2000, 06:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register