1. #1
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    Question Charged hose line during extrication ?

    What is your departments procedure for providing fire protection during vehicle extrication ? In the past we always charged our 1.5 inch auto/trash line and assigned a crew to man the line until victims have been extricated. Recently with decreased man power we have been looking at substituting the hand line with a 20 lb dry chemical. Wondering what everyone else is doing.

    Thanks.

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    On relatively "minor" extrications with no haz mat involvement we will usually assign one person with a 20 lb dry chem and a 5 gallon water can with AFFF. For more complex extrications, fuel spills, heavy vehicles, etc we will pull a line. Depends on circumstances.
    Thomas Anthony, PE
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    Anytime there is actual extrication, we will send a second unit. There is no time lost, as the first unit on scene is busy with patient contact, cribbing and setting up tools while the next due is in route. Our policy is to have a manned line on the gorund anytime we cut.

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    We have 2 charged and manned 1 3/4's during extrications....one to protect patients, one to protect FF's. Any sort of confirmed pin-in or roll-over with extrication gets a truck, engine, medic(s) and chief dispatched.

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    Charged line is standard on all extrications. Standard response on MVA's is 2 engines and a heavy rescue. Engines block fore and aft and provide add'l manning for extrication and cover line/s. Multiple vehicle crashes might even get 3 engines, Rescue and a truck co.

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    we'll have a charged 1 3/4 out also, with our manpower there is only 1 man on it though. For the little effort it takes to deploy and reload its worth the insurance.

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    Anything more than a door pop will get a 1.75" charged ready to go. Only reason I say "anything other than a door pop" is by the time the engine arrives and the line is charged, the hurst will already be done and put away.

    I'd like to see a dry chem on the equipment list for an extrication. In fact I started training our explorers to always grab one when they're gophering tools for an extrication.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    We're supposed to stretch and charge a line on any extrication, but it's hard to pull off every time with our limited manpower. An injury MVA will usually get two engines with a minimum of two people each. We'll dispatch our volunteers if we have to extricate, but they will be delayed and you never know how many you'll have respond.

    There are a lot of bread and butter extrications where I think you're just as good with a large extinguisher than you are with a charge hoseline. Certainly, there are many instances where having water ready to go -- and the people to staff the hose -- is a good idea.

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    We don't pull a line for an extrication.

    We might bring over one of the large dry chems, but no line.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    For the most part, the extrication is handled by EMS. FD will be called if there is a need for extricatiion and the engine will put a 1 3/4" line on the ground with it charged. The truck members will assist as needed with extrication.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    As was stated earlier, if it's a simple door we don't pull a line. Something complicated or gas on the ground it gets a line. I'm not too keen on the 20 lb extinguisher. If something lights up the trapped patient gets a lung and eyes full of dry power. Any open wounds also get packed full of power. A line can be manned by one person at an MVA with no problem, just don't throttle up past 50-75psi. It's not a building fire. We send an engine, ladder company with jaws, heavy rescue, and battalion chief (mostly to coordinate with EMS and PD or call for additional resources) and if needed a safety officer. Even though the Bn Chief is the IC, the rescue officer is in charge of the extrication.

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    So, what's the thinking on the charged line? I will stick my neck out and expose myself to ridicule and mocking by asking this question.

    In my 20+ years, i've never seen the line or the extinguisher used. Short of there being gas on the ground (which I get the need for a line)..

    What is the expectation? That the vehicle will suddenly burst into flames in a very rapid and explosive manner?

    If anything, i would imagine that you would notice a little smoke coming from the engine compartment... over time it would steadily grow and you could probably just open the hood and squirt it with a PW.

    I know the book preaches a line everytime, but what's the reality?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, what's the thinking on the charged line?

    I know the book preaches a line everytime, but what's the reality?
    For as long as I can remember a line should be pulled each and every time. Not sure why the reason myself. I remember as a probie, our "rescue" truck was equipped as a rescue engine, (a pumper with all the extrication tools on it.) It also had a reel line and that was always pulled and always manned with one person "just in case."

    Now we have a heavy rescue truck with a very small pump on it with a normal 1 1/2" line flat laid in the bumper. It has yet to be pulled off at an extrication. It simply is not as easy as pulling a "red line" as well as the issue of limited staffing, it just doesn't get pulled like it used to.

    Yes, I understand if there is a fire hazard such as flammable liquids, but I'm like Chief....I cannot really think of any other reason for "protection." It has always been a because we have always done it that way type of thing.
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    We don't pull one unless someone thinks there might be a need for it. Funny thing about hose though, it goes back on almost as easy as it comes off.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    We don't pull one unless someone thinks there might be a need for it. Funny thing about hose though, it goes back on almost as easy as it comes off.
    True....unless it's wet, dirty, or got laid out on the roadway in the winter time...then it has to be replaced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    We don't pull one unless someone thinks there might be a need for it. Funny thing about hose though, it goes back on almost as easy as it comes off.
    True enough, unless you are the probie.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Intially we bring a dry chem extinguisher. If there is an extrication and as man power become available, one person mans a charged 1.75.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, what's the thinking on the charged line? I will stick my neck out and expose myself to ridicule and mocking by asking this question.

    In my 20+ years, i've never seen the line or the extinguisher used. Short of there being gas on the ground (which I get the need for a line)..

    What is the expectation? That the vehicle will suddenly burst into flames in a very rapid and explosive manner?

    If anything, i would imagine that you would notice a little smoke coming from the engine compartment... over time it would steadily grow and you could probably just open the hood and squirt it with a PW.

    I know the book preaches a line everytime, but what's the reality?
    We do it because it is tradition and it works for us. [/SARCASM]

    However in reality, we usually use the charged line to do the wash down afterwords so it is no big deal. That doesn't apply in the winter months because we don't wash down roads when it is below freezing, just seems like a bad idea.

    I guess the reasoning would be that while cutting there is the possibility of creating a spark that could ignite fumes from some flammable substance.

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    The only time we pull a line is when there is fuel leaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    However in reality, we usually use the charged line to do the wash down afterwords so it is no big deal. That doesn't apply in the winter months because we don't wash down roads when it is below freezing, just seems like a bad idea.
    A washdown? We haven't done those in just about 20 years.

    Those pesky gov'ment folks get upset when you flush oil and gas into storm drains and stuff.

    Are you sure you are a firefighter?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    A washdown? We haven't done those in just about 20 years.

    Those pesky gov'ment folks get upset when you flush oil and gas into storm drains and stuff.

    Are you sure you are a firefighter?
    We only wash down if there's gore in the road, and obviously that's pretty rare.

    As for pulling a line, we don't unless a fuel leak is present. Our standard response for an MVA is 1 engine staffed w/ 4 personnel. SOP's say 2 engines for confirmed rollovers but dispatch will rarely tone it correctly. We'll call for extra manpower if necessary and always when a chopper is inbound, which again is rarely.

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    It just doesn't happen for us. We've discussed it and it's on the wish list right behind a few more firefighters on each shift. As was noted by others, given a reason such as fuel spillage then it become the priority. Like Chief K, I've seen it in books and training for 23 years but never actually seen the need truly arise. Of course we could be just whistling past the graveyard too?

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    Originally Posted by ChiefKN
    A washdown? We haven't done those in just about 20 years.

    Those pesky gov'ment folks get upset when you flush oil and gas into storm drains and stuff.

    Are you sure you are a firefighter?
    Scarecrowville doesn't have storm drains.. so the wash down water eventually ends up in the lakes and brooks...

    There's some fine fishing there... look at this beauty!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    True....unless it's wet, dirty, or got laid out on the roadway in the winter time...then it has to be replaced.
    BTW, I'm working on a new invention.

    Bio-degradable hose. You just leave it where you dropped it.

    NO more picking up!

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Storm Drains???? What is that?????

    Through on a little bio solve and wash it into the shoulder. If the tiny little bit of oil and junk do make it into the lakes and streams it is so diluted by the time it gets there it really doesn't matter. In fact, as long as it is in the open it will evaporate into thin air. With the number of cars and trucks running around leaking oils and fluids this isn't as big a deal as the enviros like to make it out to be.
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 01-08-2010 at 12:31 AM.

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