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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yes, I worked for the U.S. Government as well. I much preferred not having the Union interference. I recall working in a maintenance job in a Union shop. My wages were held down by the Union contract.
    Only proving that idiotboy was too stupid to even keep a job in an organization he views as being inept.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Only proving that idiotboy was too stupid to even keep a job in an organization he views as being inept.
    Best thing that ever happened to me was getting out of there. It hurt financially, but now I work in a professional environment with knowledgeable professionals. Having seen how the government is so dysfunctional first hand I know that the less government does the better we are as a country. There was a Captain Stationed there at the time who was taking Management classes, he said the place was the definition of dysfunctional.

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    GeorgeWendtCFI

    Want to make sure I understand the point you are trying to make:

    Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    And as I pointed out, if the nominee will be unable to obtain the security clearance needed to perform he fundamental aspects of the job, why waste everyone's time? The security clearance issue and the confirmation process have nothing to do with one another.


    If you are unable to obtain a security clearance at the level required for the job you should never be offered the job and because you are unable to perform the job there in no reason for a confirmation process. Simply put, without the security clearance you are not qualified for the job. Do I understand you correctly?
    Train like you want to fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Best thing that ever happened to me was getting out of there. It hurt financially, but now I work in a professional environment with knowledgeable professionals. Having seen how the government is so dysfunctional first hand I know that the less government does the better we are as a country. There was a Captain Stationed there at the time who was taking Management classes, he said the place was the definition of dysfunctional.
    My wife has worked in the private sector her entire adult life. She has said the same thing about numerous management individuals during her career.

    What's your point?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Appointments are done in the Senate. Try again.
    So I guess you're out of room to back peddle about the lies and made up statements you were spewing before. Now you're on to just ignoring it and changing the subject. Nice.

    Next.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    My wife has worked in the private sector her entire adult life. She has said the same thing about numerous management individuals during her career.

    What's your point?
    She obviously doesn't have the diverse experience nor the knowledge to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    I have spent time working for 4 municipal governments. Two with a union, and two without. I much preferred the two without.

    Nice try though.
    Why was that? Just curious considering the experiences with my employer and that of many of my colleges in this region with their employers, working without a Union in place would have a very detrimental impact on our working conditions.

    Feel free to PM me if you wish since we're a little off-topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post
    GeorgeWendtCFI

    Want to make sure I understand the point you are trying to make:

    Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    And as I pointed out, if the nominee will be unable to obtain the security clearance needed to perform he fundamental aspects of the job, why waste everyone's time? The security clearance issue and the confirmation process have nothing to do with one another.


    If you are unable to obtain a security clearance at the level required for the job you should never be offered the job and because you are unable to perform the job there in no reason for a confirmation process. Simply put, without the security clearance you are not qualified for the job. Do I understand you correctly?
    It would be like being offered a job as a pilot when you know you would never be qualified to obtain a pilot's license.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    George, its not even worth talking to this scumbag. He's a pathological liar, nothing anyone says will matter.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Slighty off topic, but in the same realm, all this talk about full body scanners seems to be a bit of a red herring. I've talked to some pretty knowledgeable people with Interpol on this. They tell me that
    A. The amount of explosive carried was nowhere nearly enough to cause structural damage to the aircraft.
    B. The material ( PETN?) probably would not have shown on the full body scanner in any case.
    C. This whole uproar is trying to deflect attention away from the fact that the whole episode was quite simply incompetence in the intelligence arena.

    I don't know if this is 100% true or not, but the one person is quite high in Interpol and works quite closely with the US

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Why was that? Just curious considering the experiences with my employer and that of many of my colleges in this region with their employers, working without a Union in place would have a very detrimental impact on our working conditions.

    Feel free to PM me if you wish since we're a little off-topic.
    It has been my experience that we have OSHA regulations, federal and state laws, that protect the worker. I have also found that those places who have poor working conditions and pay low wages have a high turnover rate and the business suffers as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hottotter View Post
    It has been my experience that we have OSHA regulations, federal and state laws, that protect the worker. I have also found that those places who have poor working conditions and pay low wages have a high turnover rate and the business suffers as a result.

    The problem with you and your "opinion" is that you assume that employers and city government are on the up and up. You assume that they will deal on a level playing field, when the opposite is quite the norm.

    Remember, it's always about the money. In our case, one of the top priorities of the union is to help ensure that members have their injuries properly handled financially. City government is very concerned about saving money anywhere they can, and they will sacrifice not only the public's safety, but ours as well. They have adopted a deny first attitude, with virtually every line-injury claim.
    If there is no union in place, a person is on their own to fight for their claim. It is up to the individual person to first hire an attorney, and pay for their service, or to research, investigate and file the paper work and run thru the process if they can not afford one. And all of this even though the member/employee did nothing wrong, was fully in the right, etc...

    This is but one aspect that my local works for every member. And yes, I have seen the city deny, fight and resist paying it's obligation, not only under law, but from an ethics point. The local was there to aid these members on their behalf, so they could heal.

    It's not like we expect you to understand, though. Everything is just "peachy" in the private sector, with nobody screwing anyone, right? Whatever; go away, no one cares what you have to say, hottrotter.

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    GeorgeWendtCFI I agree with you completely. If you aren't qualified then you have no business applying for, or being suggested for, a position. Aren't people supposed to be "vetted" before they are proposed for these positions? Of course we are attempting to apply common sense to Washington D.C. politicians.

    Now I'll stir the pot a little more regarding security clearances. It was said several times prior to election that Obama would not be able to get a security clearance if he applied for a high level job based upon several factors, including people he associated with and their actions or agendas. As a result, if someone couldn't get a high level security clearance to work for the government, why are they in the position to run it? I have never seen anything to prove or disprove this claim. Since many of you follow politics closer than I do, could you provide an answer?

    Thank you,
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    The problem with you and your "opinion" is that you assume that employers and city government are on the up and up. You assume that they will deal on a level playing field, when the opposite is quite the norm.

    Remember, it's always about the money. In our case, one of the top priorities of the union is to help ensure that members have their injuries properly handled financially. City government is very concerned about saving money anywhere they can, and they will sacrifice not only the public's safety, but ours as well. They have adopted a deny first attitude, with virtually every line-injury claim.
    If there is no union in place, a person is on their own to fight for their claim. It is up to the individual person to first hire an attorney, and pay for their service, or to research, investigate and file the paper work and run thru the process if they can not afford one. And all of this even though the member/employee did nothing wrong, was fully in the right, etc...

    This is but one aspect that my local works for every member. And yes, I have seen the city deny, fight and resist paying it's obligation, not only under law, but from an ethics point. The local was there to aid these members on their behalf, so they could heal.

    It's not like we expect you to understand, though. Everything is just "peachy" in the private sector, with nobody screwing anyone, right? Whatever; go away, no one cares what you have to say, hottrotter.
    Government agencies provide the best work environments. They are using other peoples money, they don't have to show a profit, and they have no problem raising taxes. The Unions give this make beleive feeling that they are actually doing something. It justifies their existence and some cigar smoking fat cat keeps his high priced job. Face, it Unions do nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    She obviously doesn't have the diverse experience nor the knowledge to know.
    Actually numbnuts you read in the belief she was referring to all of her employers. She has worked for some very competent individuals as well. The point being is there is a myth that all private sector organizations are efficient.

    Not surprising you missed the point...again.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It has been my experience that we have OSHA regulations, federal and state laws, that protect the worker. I have also found that those places who have poor working conditions and pay low wages have a high turnover rate and the business suffers as a result.
    Which can all easily be changed. Or in the case of the previous administration, the agencies aren't funded well enough to do their jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Government agencies provide the best work environments. They are using other peoples money, they don't have to show a profit, and they have no problem raising taxes. The Unions give this make beleive feeling that they are actually doing something. It justifies their existence and some cigar smoking fat cat keeps his high priced job. Face, it Unions do nothing.
    The union I worked for had to drag our management into actions that would save them money. It was our union that literally forced our management to adopt a WEFIT program. Management opposed it because of the belief in liability that would be discovered by doing annual employee screening. Three years later the Workers Comp claims were a third of their original amount. The other argument being they didn't want to spend the money. There were other programs our union pushed like private public partnerships that brought in revenue to our department.

    Maybe Hooterville unions do nothing. But ours was proactive in a lot of areas (that I could see). I was proud to be part of the organization and still pay my dues in a retirement capacity.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-10-2010 at 09:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    The problem with you and your "opinion" is that you assume that employers and city government are on the up and up. You assume that they will deal on a level playing field, when the opposite is quite the norm.

    Remember, it's always about the money. In our case, one of the top priorities of the union is to help ensure that members have their injuries properly handled financially. City government is very concerned about saving money anywhere they can, and they will sacrifice not only the public's safety, but ours as well. They have adopted a deny first attitude, with virtually every line-injury claim.
    If there is no union in place, a person is on their own to fight for their claim. It is up to the individual person to first hire an attorney, and pay for their service, or to research, investigate and file the paper work and run thru the process if they can not afford one. And all of this even though the member/employee did nothing wrong, was fully in the right, etc...

    This is but one aspect that my local works for every member. And yes, I have seen the city deny, fight and resist paying it's obligation, not only under law, but from an ethics point. The local was there to aid these members on their behalf, so they could heal.

    It's not like we expect you to understand, though. Everything is just "peachy" in the private sector, with nobody screwing anyone, right? Whatever; go away, no one cares what you have to say, hottrotter.
    I think you also have to factor in that unions have abused this relationship with their employers with ridiculous work rules. I have spoken many times about my experiences in AC, and with the work rules on Broadway.

    I recently worked a fire investigation where the restoration company used union carpenters to build an enclosure around an area where evidence was located. They built something far, far more elaborate than was necessary. When the day came for all parties to examine the evidence, we had to use the union carpenters to take down the enclosure. We were ready to work at 8 AM. They were not. They worked about an hour before their break at 9:30 AM. While they were on break, we continued to take down the enclosure. When they came back they had a fit. Almost stopped working. They were carrying one stud at a time. There was one guy watching, one guy with the screw gun and one guy carefully carrying his one board at a time and placing it in a neat pile before he went back. The guy with the screw gun wouldn't start disassembling the next stud until he came back. At 11:30 AM, they were not even 1/2 done and wanted to stop for lunch. (Remember, there are multiple parties here, including fire investigators, engineers and attorneys, waiting to do their jobs for these mopes). We stopped them and told them that they were finishing a certain portion before they went to lunch. We got to the point where we only wanted enough of this enclosure down to allow us to work. We then told the restoration company to tell these lazy loafs to go away. The carpenters said no problem. They hit the restoration company for the whole days wages plus overtime for the time we made them work into their lunch 90 minutes.

    In the old days, unions made a positive impact on working conditions and wages. Today, for the most part, they are a means to allow their members to unnecesarily extend the time length of the project (guaranteeing them work), place restrictive work rules (guaranteeing them work) and overpaying for substandard work.

    I have seen it with my own eyes many times,so spare me the lectures.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Actually numbnuts you read in the belief she was referring to all of her employers. She has worked for some very competent individuals as well. The point being is there is a myth that all private sector organizations are efficient.

    Not surprising you missed the point...again.
    If the private organization is inefficient they go out of business. What happens when government is inefficient?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    If the private organization is inefficient they go out of business. What happens when government is inefficient?
    Really? I guess you were asleep during 2008.

    If the private organization is big enough. They get the taxpayer to pay for their losses.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Really? I guess you were asleep during 2008.
    Good point. Before we socialized things they were allowed to fail and the good ones survived. Now we have created and enforced the notion that failure and mediocrity is OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Good point. Before we socialized things they were allowed to fail and the good ones survived. Now we have created and enforced the notion that failure and mediocrity is OK.
    That's not what you stated in your original post.

    Proving you wrong is so easy, it almost (I repeat almost) isnt' much fun.

    The fact that you're gainfully employed only reinforces the validity of your statement regarding mediocrity.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I think you also have to factor in that unions have abused this relationship with their employers with ridiculous work rules. I have spoken many times about my experiences in AC, and with the work rules on Broadway.
    Sadly I wish I could say your experiences were unique and anecdotal. One of my neighbors owned a company that produced exhibits for clients displaying their products at conventions. He told me that when he went to hardcore union towns the rules were ridiculous. For example. Having to wait and use a union electirician to plug in a display.

    This neighbor is very liberal by the standards on these boards. And is a registered Dem. Trade unions didn't win any friends in the way they treated him.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That's not what you stated in your original post.

    Proving you wrong is so easy, it almost (I repeat almost) isnt' much fun.

    The fact that you're gainfully employed only reinforces the validity of your statement regarding mediocrity.
    I know, I admitted I was wrong. It used to be we let the bad fail. Now we prop them up and waste more tax dollars. The constitution calls for a way to handle these situations, perhaps you can tell us all what that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I have seen it with my own eyes many times,so spare me the lectures.
    George, no doubt about it, there are some abuses. My part time work requires me to be a part of the stagehands union. Whole different ball game, with an entirely different set of rules, many of which are similar to your experience. We load and unload trucks, but we do not pack trunks, put up or take down lights or speakers, etc... do it, and you could be fired from the job.

    I won't back down with my local, though, which is an IAFF affiliate. I have watched first hand, members who were injured in the line-of-duty at fire scenes, only to have their injury claim denied.
    Since the local economy here has cut revenue into the city the workers comp denials have sky rocketed.
    Believe me, I am not a huge supporter of unions, but I have seen a definite need for them in this line of work. In the end though, it is the only true check we have to keep our legal rights from being completely trampled. There is no way I would be a non-union firefighter.
    Last edited by jasper45; 01-10-2010 at 12:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hottrotter View Post
    Government agencies provide the best work environments. They are using other peoples money, they don't have to show a profit, and they have no problem raising taxes. The Unions give this make beleive feeling that they are actually doing something. It justifies their existence and some cigar smoking fat cat keeps his high priced job. Face, it Unions do nothing.

    Do you ever post anything of any value? Your statements here show that you are completely ignorant on the topic, and shouldn't be taking part in the conversation.
    I have watched my local do plenty for it's members, including preserving the rights of members who were wrongly denied injury benefits. Left to their own, they would have had to front the money and the time to get what they were entitled to, under law.

    You don't want to believe that, or you can't understand that? Too bad, go away, once again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That's not what you stated in your original post.
    Since when have you cared what someone actually said when you can just lie and make something up that is more fitting to your agenda?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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