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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    The problem with you and your "opinion" is that you assume that employers and city government are on the up and up. You assume that they will deal on a level playing field, when the opposite is quite the norm.

    Remember, it's always about the money. In our case, one of the top priorities of the union is to help ensure that members have their injuries properly handled financially. City government is very concerned about saving money anywhere they can, and they will sacrifice not only the public's safety, but ours as well. They have adopted a deny first attitude, with virtually every line-injury claim.
    If there is no union in place, a person is on their own to fight for their claim. It is up to the individual person to first hire an attorney, and pay for their service, or to research, investigate and file the paper work and run thru the process if they can not afford one. And all of this even though the member/employee did nothing wrong, was fully in the right, etc...

    This is but one aspect that my local works for every member. And yes, I have seen the city deny, fight and resist paying it's obligation, not only under law, but from an ethics point. The local was there to aid these members on their behalf, so they could heal.

    It's not like we expect you to understand, though. Everything is just "peachy" in the private sector, with nobody screwing anyone, right? Whatever; go away, no one cares what you have to say, hottrotter.
    I think you also have to factor in that unions have abused this relationship with their employers with ridiculous work rules. I have spoken many times about my experiences in AC, and with the work rules on Broadway.

    I recently worked a fire investigation where the restoration company used union carpenters to build an enclosure around an area where evidence was located. They built something far, far more elaborate than was necessary. When the day came for all parties to examine the evidence, we had to use the union carpenters to take down the enclosure. We were ready to work at 8 AM. They were not. They worked about an hour before their break at 9:30 AM. While they were on break, we continued to take down the enclosure. When they came back they had a fit. Almost stopped working. They were carrying one stud at a time. There was one guy watching, one guy with the screw gun and one guy carefully carrying his one board at a time and placing it in a neat pile before he went back. The guy with the screw gun wouldn't start disassembling the next stud until he came back. At 11:30 AM, they were not even 1/2 done and wanted to stop for lunch. (Remember, there are multiple parties here, including fire investigators, engineers and attorneys, waiting to do their jobs for these mopes). We stopped them and told them that they were finishing a certain portion before they went to lunch. We got to the point where we only wanted enough of this enclosure down to allow us to work. We then told the restoration company to tell these lazy loafs to go away. The carpenters said no problem. They hit the restoration company for the whole days wages plus overtime for the time we made them work into their lunch 90 minutes.

    In the old days, unions made a positive impact on working conditions and wages. Today, for the most part, they are a means to allow their members to unnecesarily extend the time length of the project (guaranteeing them work), place restrictive work rules (guaranteeing them work) and overpaying for substandard work.

    I have seen it with my own eyes many times,so spare me the lectures.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Actually numbnuts you read in the belief she was referring to all of her employers. She has worked for some very competent individuals as well. The point being is there is a myth that all private sector organizations are efficient.

    Not surprising you missed the point...again.
    If the private organization is inefficient they go out of business. What happens when government is inefficient?

  3. #43
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    If the private organization is inefficient they go out of business. What happens when government is inefficient?
    Really? I guess you were asleep during 2008.

    If the private organization is big enough. They get the taxpayer to pay for their losses.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Really? I guess you were asleep during 2008.
    Good point. Before we socialized things they were allowed to fail and the good ones survived. Now we have created and enforced the notion that failure and mediocrity is OK.

  5. #45
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Good point. Before we socialized things they were allowed to fail and the good ones survived. Now we have created and enforced the notion that failure and mediocrity is OK.
    That's not what you stated in your original post.

    Proving you wrong is so easy, it almost (I repeat almost) isnt' much fun.

    The fact that you're gainfully employed only reinforces the validity of your statement regarding mediocrity.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #46
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I think you also have to factor in that unions have abused this relationship with their employers with ridiculous work rules. I have spoken many times about my experiences in AC, and with the work rules on Broadway.
    Sadly I wish I could say your experiences were unique and anecdotal. One of my neighbors owned a company that produced exhibits for clients displaying their products at conventions. He told me that when he went to hardcore union towns the rules were ridiculous. For example. Having to wait and use a union electirician to plug in a display.

    This neighbor is very liberal by the standards on these boards. And is a registered Dem. Trade unions didn't win any friends in the way they treated him.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That's not what you stated in your original post.

    Proving you wrong is so easy, it almost (I repeat almost) isnt' much fun.

    The fact that you're gainfully employed only reinforces the validity of your statement regarding mediocrity.
    I know, I admitted I was wrong. It used to be we let the bad fail. Now we prop them up and waste more tax dollars. The constitution calls for a way to handle these situations, perhaps you can tell us all what that is.

  8. #48
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I have seen it with my own eyes many times,so spare me the lectures.
    George, no doubt about it, there are some abuses. My part time work requires me to be a part of the stagehands union. Whole different ball game, with an entirely different set of rules, many of which are similar to your experience. We load and unload trucks, but we do not pack trunks, put up or take down lights or speakers, etc... do it, and you could be fired from the job.

    I won't back down with my local, though, which is an IAFF affiliate. I have watched first hand, members who were injured in the line-of-duty at fire scenes, only to have their injury claim denied.
    Since the local economy here has cut revenue into the city the workers comp denials have sky rocketed.
    Believe me, I am not a huge supporter of unions, but I have seen a definite need for them in this line of work. In the end though, it is the only true check we have to keep our legal rights from being completely trampled. There is no way I would be a non-union firefighter.
    Last edited by jasper45; 01-10-2010 at 12:37 PM.

  9. #49
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hottrotter View Post
    Government agencies provide the best work environments. They are using other peoples money, they don't have to show a profit, and they have no problem raising taxes. The Unions give this make beleive feeling that they are actually doing something. It justifies their existence and some cigar smoking fat cat keeps his high priced job. Face, it Unions do nothing.

    Do you ever post anything of any value? Your statements here show that you are completely ignorant on the topic, and shouldn't be taking part in the conversation.
    I have watched my local do plenty for it's members, including preserving the rights of members who were wrongly denied injury benefits. Left to their own, they would have had to front the money and the time to get what they were entitled to, under law.

    You don't want to believe that, or you can't understand that? Too bad, go away, once again.

  10. #50
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    That's not what you stated in your original post.
    Since when have you cared what someone actually said when you can just lie and make something up that is more fitting to your agenda?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    George, no doubt about it, there are some abuses. My part time work requires me to be a part of the stagehands union. Whole different ball game, with an entirely different set of rules, many of which are similar to your experience. We load and unload trucks, but we do not pack trunks, put up or take down lights or speakers, etc... do it, and you could be fired from the job.

    I won't back down with my local, though, which is an IAFF affiliate. I have watched first hand, members who were injured in the line-of-duty at fire scenes, only to have their injury claim denied.
    Since the local economy here has cut revenue into the city the workers comp denials have sky rocketed.
    Believe me, I am not a huge supporter of unions, but I have seen a definite need for them in this line of work. In the end though, it is the only true check we have to keep our legal rights from being completely trampled. There is no way I would be a non-union firefighter.
    In this state workers comp is handled by the State, not the local town or city. It has nothing to do with a contract or a Union. Perhaps the Union provides assistance to prepare an appeal, but being denied workers comp has nothing to do with the Union.

    I guess I have a bad opinion of Unions in general because I have found them to be more of impediment and in the way of progress and getting the job done.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Really? I guess you were asleep during 2008.

    If the private organization is big enough. They get the taxpayer to pay for their losses.
    Which you support. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Can't have it both ways.

    If the company is inept and inefficient then let them fail. Stop supporting mediocrity. Stop supporting and backing bad financial, management, efficiency, and manufacturing practices. Let GM fail. Let AIG fail. Let Bank of America fail. Let Wells Fargo fail.

    Let the UAW learn the hard way that they abused their power and contributed heavily to the downfall of the U.S. automotive industry.
    Last edited by DaSharkie; 01-10-2010 at 01:36 PM.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Why was that? Just curious considering the experiences with my employer and that of many of my colleges in this region with their employers, working without a Union in place would have a very detrimental impact on our working conditions.

    Feel free to PM me if you wish since we're a little off-topic.
    As for the union, in both cases IAFF all I ever found was that negotiations were about 1 thing, and 1 thing only - the most amount of money for the least amount of work. If someone was rightfully disciplined for infractions or violating policy they wouldfile a grievance. If a new policy was placed in effect by the chief I have seen it grieved as "change in work practice." Both of these were IAFF affiliates. And I will tell you first hand there was a vast difference in the manner in which the union defended its members or fought grievances based upon how much the President and E-board liked the member.

    As for the non-union places, they operated more efficiently, adapted more quickly and more readily to changes in the area, and I was not paid much differently than the surrounding communities - especially when you consider the percentage that the union would take out of ones paycheck. I was happier when I was working in the non-union places, had a better work environment, and more respect as an individual.

    Just my experiences here.

    If I add to this the stuff that happens in Massachusetts unions that I have seen, experienced, and read about it further turns off my desire to ever work in a union position again.

    We have toll collectors on the Massachusetts Turnpike making $50,000+ base salary to hold their hand out. We have train operators in the MBTA fighting a rule banning them from texting/talking on a cell phone while operating a bus or train (put in place after 2 severe train accidents in and around Boston that involved fatalities and severe injuries.) We have the Massachusetts Nursing Association (nurses union) pushing for a California-type law limiting the number of patients per nurse (which has been shown to have no impact in patient care or outcomes.) We have a local police union on the North Shore (I forget the exact town's name) that received a new holiday in this year's contract (in the middle of a recession mind you) on September 11 of every year that involves holiday pay, compensation days, and will cost overtime and more money. This is all in the past year.

    If you don't like where you work, then leave. If you think your employer treats you poorly then leave. Just my thoughts on the matter.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  14. #54
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hottrotter View Post
    In this state workers comp is handled by the State, not the local town or city. It has nothing to do with a contract or a Union. Perhaps the Union provides assistance to prepare an appeal, but being denied workers comp has nothing to do with the Union.
    The state mandates that workman's comp must be provided, under state law. I don't know about other cities in my state because I don't work for them, but the city of Milwaukee is self-insured for everything: vehicles, buildings, pension, duty-disability, workman's comp and lawsuit payouts. Anything that is paid out for accidents and injuries is part of the city budget. That is why it becomes such a hot topic when staffing reductions are talked about, because with reduced staffing comes injury increases, etc...

    The union handles the entire appeal process, and is planned and budgeted for thru our union dues we pay. We retain an attorney and firm that specialize in labor law, and provide us with legal counsel when issues arise. The city denies the claim, and you live with it unless you choose to appeal that decision. With no union, that is incumbent on you and you alone. With the local, we have all paid for the services of the union and it's experise in handling these types of issues.

    My comparison is with the private ambulance companies that work within our EMS system. I watched as people there were hung out to dry, let go without cause, or suffered thru long appeal processes with injuries suffered at work, in a somewhat related non-union field. Employees were subjected to workers rights violations left and right, somehow management has to kept in check, as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hottrotter View Post
    I guess I have a bad opinion of Unions in general because I have found them to be more of impediment and in the way of progress and getting the job done.
    I am not talking about all unions, or even unions in general. I am talking about my local, specifically. I understand that labor unions in many ways have run rampant and unchecked. One of the biggest needs as a public sector firefighter is the preservation of our rights in relation to our health. This would be near impossible without the aid of our locals.

  15. #55
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Since when have you cared what someone actually said when you can just lie and make something up that is more fitting to your agenda?
    Hee hee hee. I called you on your ignorance and you take it out on me.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Let the UAW learn the hard way that they abused their power and contributed heavily to the downfall of the U.S. automotive industry.
    So the UAW was responsible for designing cars no one wanted?

    I never stated I supported the bailouts. I said I understood why they were done. You have this naive belief that large financial institutions can fail and have little if any impact on entities outside of the financial community.

    Clearly you're uninformed.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-10-2010 at 03:34 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    George, no doubt about it, there are some abuses. My part time work requires me to be a part of the stagehands union. Whole different ball game, with an entirely different set of rules, many of which are similar to your experience. We load and unload trucks, but we do not pack trunks, put up or take down lights or speakers, etc... do it, and you could be fired from the job.

    I won't back down with my local, though, which is an IAFF affiliate. I have watched first hand, members who were injured in the line-of-duty at fire scenes, only to have their injury claim denied.
    Since the local economy here has cut revenue into the city the workers comp denials have sky rocketed.
    Believe me, I am not a huge supporter of unions, but I have seen a definite need for them in this line of work. In the end though, it is the only true check we have to keep our legal rights from being completely trampled. There is no way I would be a non-union firefighter.
    I will not argue with you about the IAFF. That is not my point.

    However, the abuses I describe are far more widespread than you allude to.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So the UAW was responsible for designing cars no one wanted?
    We have been through this before. For an educated, intelligent person we really have to repeat things a lot in order for you to understand them.

    The UAW pushed for ridiculous wages, high benefits, hindering layoff rules (recall the the work centers where the laid off members would go to sit all day to collect benefits for not working?)

    Let's not forget the poor workmanship in many cars over the past 30 years, though this has improved of late. Let's not forget the bloated numbers of people to build vehicles. The strikes over money.

    The UAW contributed heavily to the need for GM and Chrysler entering bankruptcy - by refusing job reductions and restructuring to save money.

    I have never claimed that they were fully culpable, just that they contributed heavily to their own situation. One more reason that I will not buy a GM or Chyrsler...And there are only a few Ford models I would even consider.

    I will also point out Subaru. Every Subaru made in the U.S. is made in Lafayette, Indiana. In a non-union shop. The vehicles are well made, very functional, and very innovative.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  19. #59
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I never stated I supported the bailouts. I said I understood why they were done. You have this naive belief that large financial institutions can fail and have little if any impact on entities outside of the financial community.
    I never said I believed that the large institutions could fail have little impact on other entities. I said that multiple times, in fact every time you have accused me of believing this, I have told you otherwise. Predictably, you choose to believe otherwise. Just as you believe many other things about me, having never met me - even though I have corrected you, in an honest and respectful manner, on the errors of your statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Clearly you're uninformed.
    Clearly, you have a differing opinion than me. I am informed, I just feel differently than you. When others have a different opinion from you, you have this overriding drive to insult, demean, and harrass the individual with the complete inability to have a rational, mature, well-though discussion.

    It is very unbecoming of an intelligent, educated person.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  20. #60
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Hee hee hee. I called you on your ignorance and you take it out on me.
    That would make sense if anything you allegedly "called me on" actually happened in this dimension of reality. Perhaps in your little brain it did, but not here.

    Go ahead, que the next repetitive lie in response to fact. I'll be right here.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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