1. #1
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    Default Heres a good question for seasoned fire officers

    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town, 1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county.

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools?? The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.

    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts??

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    How were the pt extricated without tools? What does your SOP's say?

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    What was the dispatch info?
    Was it dispatched as an extrication?
    What are your policies?
    What was the call load like?
    What did the BC say or do you run one?

    Way too little info to comment.
    FTM-PTB-RFB
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    You sound like the guy who was left in town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84 View Post
    You sound like the guy who was left in town.
    Yeah that, or he wants to be the Lt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGlades View Post
    Any thoughts??
    We are lucky if you are giving us half the story. Thoughts? Not your problem unless you are his chief officer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGlades View Post
    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town, 1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county.

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools?? The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.

    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts??
    Not enough info on this for an answer.

    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town
    1. This doesn't make sense. Do you mean an incorporated area of your district or another depts?

    1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county
    2. This is alot of stuff but in light of the situation, might not been enough.

    3. How many firefighters?

    4. Did firefighters or law enforcement handle traffic control ?

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools??
    5. The original Rescue had no rescue tools or cribbing?

    The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.
    6. This might be a valid reason or correct decision if he was in command and felt he had enough on scene resources.

    7. Was he IC?

    8. And if not, who was?

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.
    9. I go back to my second comment. If the first rescue only had one set of rescue tools, then clearly there wasn't enough resource on this scene. If extrication took three hours, there had to be some really tough situations here.

    10. How many injured people in all?

    11. What was the time issue with extrication?

    12. Was anyone killed that caused an extrication delay?


    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts?
    13. Personal things or issues do not belong on a scene. I can't answer whether any action should be taken against him until I know more about this.

    14. Did you respond?

    15. What is your rank?

    16. What is your level of experience?

    17. What is your age?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I need these questions answered before I can get a clear enough picture of what happened, what should have happened, and if you are correct in your accessment. It would really be useful to know where this happened as well, but I won't pin you down on that.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGlades View Post
    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town, 1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county.

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools?? The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.

    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts??
    It would be hard for us to say as we wasn't there on the job and don't know all the facts and the departments sop.

    As some one said you probably got left and had to stay at the engine house, if you didn't go home .
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84 View Post
    You sound like the guy who was left in town.
    I agree, take your dirty laundry and hang in your own back yard....
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream and I hope you don't find this too crazy is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    Question Wait a Minute..............

    I just looked at the opening post for about the 4th time. Am I anywhere off base with my reading comprehension?? It looks to me like the Rescue vehicle in question was from the "First Due" station....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I just looked at the opening post for about the 4th time. Am I anywhere off base with my reading comprehension?? It looks to me like the Rescue vehicle in question was from the "First Due" station....
    That's kind of the impression that I got as well. Not the call I would have made, but still not enough info to really comment. I don't know what equipment was on the 2 engines or how far away the rescue was. Only 1 side of the story here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I just looked at the opening post for about the 4th time. Am I anywhere off base with my reading comprehension?? It looks to me like the Rescue vehicle in question was from the "First Due" station....
    His description of the event leaves a lot of unanswered questions. I read it the same way you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Paladin, Careful, It's Murky in there. I got your back..........
    Thanks Harve.

    I figured I save some time since he only had a few posts.

    If he isn't a LT he is out of line and if he outranks the LT then he should have already known the answer.

    I really want to know why a LT was running this scene in the first place. I've seen some pretty good LTs but if the situation is as decribed I would have wanted a bit more experience out there.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Frankly, in my opinion, it is not a call for us to make. If you have a problem with it you need to ask him. Or the next senior officer. Besides you did not give near enough information. Maybe there is some info you do not know about, especially if you were one of the ones taht did not make it to the scene.

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    1. This doesn't make sense. Do you mean an incorporated area of your district or another depts?
    -Unicorporated County

    2. This is alot of stuff but in light of the situation, might not been enough.
    -It was not enough, whichleads back to my original question.

    3. How many firefighters?
    -Rescue 14 x2, Engine 5 x4, Engine 25 x2

    4. Did firefighters or law enforcement handle traffic control ?
    -Always LE around here


    5. The original Rescue had no rescue tools or cribbing?
    -The Rescue carries a significant amount of cribbing, Spreaders, Cutters, multiple rams. Engine caries only a combo cut/spread tool

    6. This might be a valid reason or correct decision if he was in command and felt he had enough on scene resources.
    -He was NOT in command and no resources were on scene

    7. Was he IC?
    -Nobody was on scene

    8. And if not, who was?
    -Nobody was on scene

    9. I go back to my second comment. If the first rescue only had one set of rescue tools, then clearly there wasn't enough resource on this scene. If extrication took three hours, there had to be some really tough situations here.
    -mutual aid TRT, and no there wasnt enoguh resources on scene, which leads back to my original question.

    10. How many injured people in all?
    -6

    11. What was the time issue with extrication?
    -I was not on scene

    12. Was anyone killed that caused an extrication delay?
    -no

    13. Personal things or issues do not belong on a scene. I can't answer whether any action should be taken against him until I know more about this.

    14. Did you respond?
    -I was driving the rescue

    15. What is your rank?
    -Firefighter

    16. What is your level of experience?
    -6 year jr member, 4 year active duty firefighter

    17. What is your age?
    -Old enough to have above listed experience.

    Yes I was driving the Rescue that was cancelled. I am fairly inexperienced, however, had a 18 year veteran with me. A fully staffed Engine was still in town, The rescue vehicle was approx 6 miles from the accident and would have been the first truck on scene. Yes, I was the truck that got cancelled.

    It should be noted that the next closest truck was 10 miles behind me.

    Out of line? I am not anyones superior, nor am i looking for justification for what he did or the way I feel about it, but merely to start a discussion regarding a situation that could havebeen handled better.

    This is an unbiased version of the facts, used only for a discussion between a young, eager to learn firefighter and some guys that have been around for a while, period. This is in no way to justify anything, prove any point or anything else for that matter, just discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    If he isn't a LT he is out of line and if he outranks the LT then he should have already known the answer.
    I am not quite sure how I would be out of line to seek advice from some well educated and experienced firefighters?? I am not asking how to overthrow the command structure, simply how the call shouldve been handled. I am glad I do not work for your Dept., I would hate to come back and critique a bad call.

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    sound like since you are just a firefighter and he is an LT. then you just need to shut up and say yes sir. It is not your job to question the decision of a line officer that is what the chief is for. The fire department is a paramilitary orgainization. That means we follow orders and dont ask questions. Now if you true intent is to learn and better YOUR decision making skills i would suggest that you ask him in a non-hostile and respectful manner. If you reasoning (i assume it is since you are asking strangers on the internet) is to make the man look like a reckless and stupid officer, i suggest you shut up, grow up, or get out the frie service. We do not have the time to have a firefighter questioning an officer. Unless it affects your safety and it better be a true reckless and careless order you perform it without question. And NO being cancelling on a call does fall in to the above. I would suggest if it bothers you that bad do not go on the internet and bash the man have the balls to question him face to face in his office.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    Yeah that, or he wants to be the Lt.
    No, I do not want to be the LT.

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    I thought that was the purpose of a forum, to ask strangers questions on the internet?
    Last edited by FireGlades; 01-11-2010 at 04:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGlades View Post
    I am not quite sure how I would be out of line to seek advice from some well educated and experienced firefighters?? I am not asking how to overthrow the command structure, simply how the call shouldve been handled. I am glad I do not work for your Dept., I would hate to come back and critique a bad call.


    Well son, let me put it this way, I'm glad you're not working for my dept too.

    This sounds like sour grapes.

    But if it is as you say, I get the pictire that the LT was making the decisions before he arrived on scene, or from another location. If that is the case, your department has alot more issues than anyone can solve here. You state that no one was in charge. So I'm I suppose to believe that a bunch of guys just showed up with no command structure in place? Where were the line officers on this deal?

    Unfortunately, your job is not to question a superior's orders, unless you are pretty sure he is sending you to certain death. Discussing the issue here is fine and dandy but taking swipes at your LT is not going to put you in a good light with many people here. Neither is insulting other members.

    And again, if your LT called the shots, then I still don't really have any proof he failed to do his job. If in fact your truck was closer, and it was in your district, and he pulled you off, then he most likely failed. But I thinking this might be a case of attempted call jumping. If this accident happened outside of your jurisdiction, and he was with that jurisdiction, then he was within his rights to not use your resources.

    I still cannot tell from your answers just what the hell happened, and I don't really care at this point. I asked direct questions to get a clear picture, but gave an opinion based upon what you provided. Your response back to me was to insult my intelligence and apparently my leadership skills.

    Based upon your answers, you're about 22 years young.

    I asked questions in an attempt to give you some advice.

    Here is my advice: Get the chip off your shoulder and let go of your little ego. I don't care what you think you know, you won't last long in the fire service if you keep that attitude up.

    So I will now answer the question.

    SCENARIO: MVC

    DISPATCHER: Report of an MVC - HWY 99 near Goober Rd, multiple vehicles involved; lanes blocked; unknown injuries.

    Our inital response would be:

    Heavy Rescue (3), 2 Engine Companies (x4 each), Rescue Squad (3), 2 Ambulances. A Captain would be the commanding officer going out the door. (6 apparatus 18 firefighters.)

    An additional Engine and Heavy Rescue would be placed on standby if the event they were needed. Additional Ambulances or Medivac would be dispatched as needed. Depending on what the first due reports, additional equipment would be dispatched, along with a Battalion Chief or Assistant Chief.

    The Heavy Rescue carries multiple cutting tools, rams, cribbing, airbags and medical equipment. The Rescue Squad carries rescue tools and medical equipment. Engines carry rescue tools only. These trucks would be sent from two stations.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Our goal, as is almost everyone here, is to safely do our job as quickly as possible. That means while we protect our guys, the patients and extricate, provide medical assistance as needed, assist Law Enforcement as needed, provide traffic control as needed, clear the scene as soon as practical. Three hours for extrication seems a bit long, but it could be about right if a tractor crushed another vehicle or was on top of one.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm going to address one more thing. If this was a call outside of your response area, then you are spending too much time worrying about this. It is a fact of life that many times some of us might have the closest truck to a fire or other emergency outside of our district. But unless we are directly requested to respond, we have to just sit there and listen to the radio traffic. I will agree that it would be prudent to dispatch the closest resource, but that is something that is decided by jurisdictions and agreements, not the guys in the station.

    I've seen this issue costs lives and cause more damage than you can access. But it is what it is. The reason for this issue, is ego. Someone gets their panties in a wad because its their district, and they will cover it, no matter how badly it goes, or what it costs.

    So if this is the issue... get over it. It's not your problem.

    If you think I've been to tough on you... you might try a little respect next time or choose your words a bit more carefully. Asking questions is a wonderful thing when you seek knowledge. Just don't bite the hand that tries to feed you.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Well said!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Paladin summed things up much better than I could. Some things still don't add up to me, but the best way to find out for sure is to discuss with your LT.

    As an officer myself, I am always more than happy to discuss a call with others at the appropriate time, namely back at the station when everything is cleaned up and back in service. He should be willing to dicuss his reasoning with you unless you approach him in the wrong way (accusing him instead of wanting to learn).

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    Paladin, I have to give you kudos. On your posts I have seen you are always really thorough and I enjoy reading your responses (I know, I know it sounds like I am kissing ars but I do not think I know Paladin so I have nothing to gain).

    That said, FireGlade I agree 100% with everyone's point. I think you may want to learn but you need to refrain from asking questions that will place another member and more especially and officer at fault or inept.

    Let me ask a few question since Paladin lead to it already. Was it your district? Was it the LT's district? Are both of you on the same department?

    Also, we ask a lot of question because people do want to help but guidance cannot be given if all of the information is not there.

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    Thanks for the comments guys...

    but I do not think I know Paladin so I have nothing to gain).
    You might know me...

    I might be closer than you think Cappy.


    Just kidding.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    I'm sorry I got a bit heated but I'm better now.

    I'm sorry that I was so hard on him. Sometimes in our frustration we don't express ourselves as well as we should. So I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't trying to cause an issue.

    Life's too short to carry issues around.


    FireGlades:

    We're trying to help you out sir.

    If you want real help, you have to work with us.

    So please, just give us the rest of the story. There are plenty of guys around here that will give you their take on the situation.

    If we work together on this, we can get alot done. OK?
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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