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  1. #1
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    Default Heres a good question for seasoned fire officers

    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town, 1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county.

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools?? The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.

    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts??


  2. #2
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    How were the pt extricated without tools? What does your SOP's say?

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber fyrmnk's Avatar
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    What was the dispatch info?
    Was it dispatched as an extrication?
    What are your policies?
    What was the call load like?
    What did the BC say or do you run one?

    Way too little info to comment.
    FTM-PTB-RFB
    IACOJ

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
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    You sound like the guy who was left in town.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84 View Post
    You sound like the guy who was left in town.
    Yeah that, or he wants to be the Lt.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGlades View Post
    Any thoughts??
    We are lucky if you are giving us half the story. Thoughts? Not your problem unless you are his chief officer.

  7. #7
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGlades View Post
    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town, 1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county.

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools?? The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.

    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts??
    Not enough info on this for an answer.

    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town
    1. This doesn't make sense. Do you mean an incorporated area of your district or another depts?

    1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county
    2. This is alot of stuff but in light of the situation, might not been enough.

    3. How many firefighters?

    4. Did firefighters or law enforcement handle traffic control ?

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools??
    5. The original Rescue had no rescue tools or cribbing?

    The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.
    6. This might be a valid reason or correct decision if he was in command and felt he had enough on scene resources.

    7. Was he IC?

    8. And if not, who was?

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.
    9. I go back to my second comment. If the first rescue only had one set of rescue tools, then clearly there wasn't enough resource on this scene. If extrication took three hours, there had to be some really tough situations here.

    10. How many injured people in all?

    11. What was the time issue with extrication?

    12. Was anyone killed that caused an extrication delay?


    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts?
    13. Personal things or issues do not belong on a scene. I can't answer whether any action should be taken against him until I know more about this.

    14. Did you respond?

    15. What is your rank?

    16. What is your level of experience?

    17. What is your age?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I need these questions answered before I can get a clear enough picture of what happened, what should have happened, and if you are correct in your accessment. It would really be useful to know where this happened as well, but I won't pin you down on that.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  8. #8
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking Yep........

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    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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  9. #9
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGlades View Post
    A multi-vehicle MVA occured in the unicorporated area of town, 1 ambulance, 1 rescue and 2 engines responding with mutual aid EMS coming from a neighboring county.

    With that being said, what is the logic of cancelling the Rescue vehicle, with all the cribbing and cut tools?? The LT's excuse was to keep a unit in town.

    The accident ended up involving 4 overturned vehicles, one being a Semi truck, with 3 patients flown and 3 hours of extrication.

    It seems like a personal thing, since this particular LT does not get along with many people, and personally I think disciplinary action should be taken against him. Any thoughts??
    It would be hard for us to say as we wasn't there on the job and don't know all the facts and the departments sop.

    As some one said you probably got left and had to stay at the engine house, if you didn't go home .
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber dmleblanc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84 View Post
    You sound like the guy who was left in town.
    I agree, take your dirty laundry and hang in your own back yard....
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

  11. #11
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Question Wait a Minute..............

    I just looked at the opening post for about the 4th time. Am I anywhere off base with my reading comprehension?? It looks to me like the Rescue vehicle in question was from the "First Due" station....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I just looked at the opening post for about the 4th time. Am I anywhere off base with my reading comprehension?? It looks to me like the Rescue vehicle in question was from the "First Due" station....
    That's kind of the impression that I got as well. Not the call I would have made, but still not enough info to really comment. I don't know what equipment was on the 2 engines or how far away the rescue was. Only 1 side of the story here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I just looked at the opening post for about the 4th time. Am I anywhere off base with my reading comprehension?? It looks to me like the Rescue vehicle in question was from the "First Due" station....
    His description of the event leaves a lot of unanswered questions. I read it the same way you do.

  14. #14
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Paladin, Careful, It's Murky in there. I got your back..........
    Thanks Harve.

    I figured I save some time since he only had a few posts.

    If he isn't a LT he is out of line and if he outranks the LT then he should have already known the answer.

    I really want to know why a LT was running this scene in the first place. I've seen some pretty good LTs but if the situation is as decribed I would have wanted a bit more experience out there.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  15. #15
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    Frankly, in my opinion, it is not a call for us to make. If you have a problem with it you need to ask him. Or the next senior officer. Besides you did not give near enough information. Maybe there is some info you do not know about, especially if you were one of the ones taht did not make it to the scene.

  16. #16
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    1. This doesn't make sense. Do you mean an incorporated area of your district or another depts?
    -Unicorporated County

    2. This is alot of stuff but in light of the situation, might not been enough.
    -It was not enough, whichleads back to my original question.

    3. How many firefighters?
    -Rescue 14 x2, Engine 5 x4, Engine 25 x2

    4. Did firefighters or law enforcement handle traffic control ?
    -Always LE around here


    5. The original Rescue had no rescue tools or cribbing?
    -The Rescue carries a significant amount of cribbing, Spreaders, Cutters, multiple rams. Engine caries only a combo cut/spread tool

    6. This might be a valid reason or correct decision if he was in command and felt he had enough on scene resources.
    -He was NOT in command and no resources were on scene

    7. Was he IC?
    -Nobody was on scene

    8. And if not, who was?
    -Nobody was on scene

    9. I go back to my second comment. If the first rescue only had one set of rescue tools, then clearly there wasn't enough resource on this scene. If extrication took three hours, there had to be some really tough situations here.
    -mutual aid TRT, and no there wasnt enoguh resources on scene, which leads back to my original question.

    10. How many injured people in all?
    -6

    11. What was the time issue with extrication?
    -I was not on scene

    12. Was anyone killed that caused an extrication delay?
    -no

    13. Personal things or issues do not belong on a scene. I can't answer whether any action should be taken against him until I know more about this.

    14. Did you respond?
    -I was driving the rescue

    15. What is your rank?
    -Firefighter

    16. What is your level of experience?
    -6 year jr member, 4 year active duty firefighter

    17. What is your age?
    -Old enough to have above listed experience.

    Yes I was driving the Rescue that was cancelled. I am fairly inexperienced, however, had a 18 year veteran with me. A fully staffed Engine was still in town, The rescue vehicle was approx 6 miles from the accident and would have been the first truck on scene. Yes, I was the truck that got cancelled.

    It should be noted that the next closest truck was 10 miles behind me.

    Out of line? I am not anyones superior, nor am i looking for justification for what he did or the way I feel about it, but merely to start a discussion regarding a situation that could havebeen handled better.

    This is an unbiased version of the facts, used only for a discussion between a young, eager to learn firefighter and some guys that have been around for a while, period. This is in no way to justify anything, prove any point or anything else for that matter, just discussion.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    If he isn't a LT he is out of line and if he outranks the LT then he should have already known the answer.
    I am not quite sure how I would be out of line to seek advice from some well educated and experienced firefighters?? I am not asking how to overthrow the command structure, simply how the call shouldve been handled. I am glad I do not work for your Dept., I would hate to come back and critique a bad call.

  18. #18
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    sound like since you are just a firefighter and he is an LT. then you just need to shut up and say yes sir. It is not your job to question the decision of a line officer that is what the chief is for. The fire department is a paramilitary orgainization. That means we follow orders and dont ask questions. Now if you true intent is to learn and better YOUR decision making skills i would suggest that you ask him in a non-hostile and respectful manner. If you reasoning (i assume it is since you are asking strangers on the internet) is to make the man look like a reckless and stupid officer, i suggest you shut up, grow up, or get out the frie service. We do not have the time to have a firefighter questioning an officer. Unless it affects your safety and it better be a true reckless and careless order you perform it without question. And NO being cancelling on a call does fall in to the above. I would suggest if it bothers you that bad do not go on the internet and bash the man have the balls to question him face to face in his office.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    Yeah that, or he wants to be the Lt.
    No, I do not want to be the LT.

  20. #20
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    I thought that was the purpose of a forum, to ask strangers questions on the internet?
    Last edited by FireGlades; 01-11-2010 at 04:47 AM.

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