1. #1
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default scba degradation...

    Click this link....
    www.publicsafetyedu.com/index.htm

    and go to special report: SCBA degradation.

    Click on the link to see the presentation....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    A very good message sir.

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bushwhacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Northern Rockies Region
    Posts
    638

    Default

    Wow, That was Pretty cool.
    Courage, Being Scared to Death and Saddling Up anyways.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    voyager9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    2,007

    Default

    I would expect the inside temperature to be hotter then they were reading. When the SCBA facepiece is attached to the mask and face it creates a closed environment that will heat up quicker than the way they were testing.

    Am I wrong in summarizing the film as "direct flame inpingement of over 600 degrees will cause facepeice failure in under a minute"? I'm not all that surprised, but the visuals do drive the point home very effectively.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

  5. #5
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I would expect the inside temperature to be hotter then they were reading. When the SCBA facepiece is attached to the mask and face it creates a closed environment that will heat up quicker than the way they were testing.

    Am I wrong in summarizing the film as "direct flame inpingement of over 600 degrees will cause facepeice failure in under a minute"? I'm not all that surprised, but the visuals do drive the point home very effectively.
    Except the face piece is not closed, there is an airflow which is positive pressure. Air is a very good insulator. Although, remember, we cook our turkeys at 350

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Ambrose33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Jersey
    Posts
    80

    Default

    Most us of us will not have our mask directly impinged by flame. But its a good video to show what will happen once the masks starts to fail. Kinda scary cause I've had a couple masks at my FD come back damaged from a fire.
    Stay safe!

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrose33 View Post
    Most us of us will not have our mask directly impinged by flame. But its a good video to show what will happen once the masks starts to fail. Kinda scary cause I've had a couple masks at my FD come back damaged from a fire.
    Which is precisely the point of the demonstration... and why I posted it!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Except the face piece is not closed, there is an airflow which is positive pressure. Air is a very good insulator. Although, remember, we cook our turkeys at 350
    Wrong again. If air is such a good insulator, explain the spread of fire to exposures through radiation.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    With all due respect Capt.Gonzo, air IS a good insulator... radiation is the transfer of heat through air without heating the air in between. If it were water, the heat would be absorbed more rapidly because water isn't as good of an insulator as air.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    299

    Default

    Air is not a good insulator at all .. radiation will travel through a vacuum, like space, air and radiation have nothing to do with each other.

    If air was a good insulator we would not expect convection to work at all. Heat causes currents without any additional input from us, IE not needed to be fan forced, if it was an insulator would it not just keep the heat where it is? (it is not insulating a heat source if the currents are drawing heat upward away from the source causing the source's temp to decrease)

    Wanna know what is a good insulator is ... dairy products ... frigging hot cheese on a pizza takes for ever to cool down when your hungry. (i joke but it is true)

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Fire spread through radiation is due to the heat passing through the air without heating said air (i.e. sunlight). If air weren't a good insulator of heat, one would expect the air to absorb the heat. The molecules in air are very far apart allowing heat to dissipate rapidly... think double pane windows.

    Convection is totally different. It's already heated air raising temperatures of conductive material as it moves by.

    This link may help: http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/c.../transfer.html
    Last edited by Firetacoma1; 01-15-2010 at 08:17 PM. Reason: error

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    small spaces of trapped air are good insulators, large bodies of "air" are poor insulators.


    Air is a poor insulator if it lets heat easily pass through it. Do you want a blanket that just allows heat to easily pass through?

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Regardless, air plays no part in radiant heating.

  14. #14
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by owenscott View Post
    Air is not a good insulator at all .. radiation will travel through a vacuum, like space, air and radiation have nothing to do with each other.

    If air was a good insulator we would not expect convection to work at all. Heat causes currents without any additional input from us, IE not needed to be fan forced, if it was an insulator would it not just keep the heat where it is? (it is not insulating a heat source if the currents are drawing heat upward away from the source causing the source's temp to decrease)

    Wanna know what is a good insulator is ... dairy products ... frigging hot cheese on a pizza takes for ever to cool down when your hungry. (i joke but it is true)
    Interesting. Heat transfer through an object occurs as the molecules hit each other and cause increased activity. In a vacuum there are no molecules. hence nothing to excite. Sound does not travel through a vacuum. I don't believe heat will either.

    But ask this. I have a 1 foot piece of cooper, a 1 foot piece of steel, and a foot piece of air. Which will conduct more heat?

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Interesting. Heat transfer through an object occurs as the molecules hit each other and cause increased activity. In a vacuum there are no molecules. hence nothing to excite. Sound does not travel through a vacuum. I don't believe heat will either.

    But ask this. I have a 1 foot piece of cooper, a 1 foot piece of steel, and a foot piece of air. Which will conduct more heat?
    Of course heat will travel through a vacuum. Infrared radiation from the sun reaches the earth all the time. Radiant heat transfers through the medium without heating the medium itself.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Wrong again. If air is such a good insulator, explain the spread of fire to exposures through radiation.
    Don't feed the trolls!

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I don't believe heat will either.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA remind us again of how smart you are

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post

    But ask this. I have a 1 foot piece of cooper, a 1 foot piece of steel, and a foot piece of air. Which will conduct more heat?
    Oooooh... Jeopardy in reverse!

    The answer is the substance of the rod up sacrecrow's backside and the space in between his two functioning brain cells.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Gonz,one question. How you gonna get the copper or steel BY HIS HEAD(already occupying cavity)? T.C.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Gonz,one question. How you gonna get the copper or steel BY HIS HEAD(already occupying cavity)? T.C.
    Hurst tool with the spreaders or rams!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Actually, "Dead Air" i.e. air that is not circulating is a pretty good insulator. Insulation in many house consists of either Polystyrene sheets or " Fibreglass Batts" Both get their insulation abilities from the small to minute pockets of air trapped therein. In your area Gonz, check frost depth on an area covered in a foot of snow or more, then check it on bare uncovered ground. The air trapped withing the snow does act as an insulator.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    While "dead air" is an insulator, the flow of air in a positive pressure SCBA unit isn't dead... neither is the air outside of any structure, whether it be my house, your house, doghouse, henhose and outhouse, therefore blowing scarecrow's theory out of the proverbial double paned air insulated window.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 01-16-2010 at 08:00 AM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    469

    Default

    I'll have to back Gonzo. The test though was very skewed here though for several reasons.

    1. The lens is a component in the whole equation in the picture. To test only one piece is like taking your tibula or fibula out of your leg and asking it to do the same job while in your leg.

    2. With a complete facepiece on your face the temperature will actually be less "ambient", the only problem is the "radiant" heat spikes what you feel. The only one that can't say that when they got into the room of fire involvement and looked at the base of the fire and felt a temp increase in their mask would be a troll...""""coUgH CoUgH... La... cOuGh crow..

    The air travel in the facepiece isnt what a lot of guys would think. It comes up into the mask across the lense, like the defroster in your vehicle. It is how a mask keeps from fogging up. The air then travels into the nosecup via the little funny things on each side and when you exhale the shut off and the air flows out the exhalation valve.

    So, with that being said the test shown gives you the aspect if you laid down face first in the fire, not worked in ambient temps and with that being said you could last longer inside as the air (air in the cylinder would be cooler)flows over the inside.

  24. #24
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    Of course heat will travel through a vacuum. Infrared radiation from the sun reaches the earth all the time. Radiant heat transfers through the medium without heating the medium itself.
    Ahh good point. I guess heat travels through a vacuum, must be the photons.

  25. #25
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    small spaces of trapped air are good insulators, large bodies of "air" are poor insulators.


    Air is a poor insulator if it lets heat easily pass through it. Do you want a blanket that just allows heat to easily pass through?
    Interesting, because when installing a wood stove they tell you to make sure to have at least 24 inches of air space to act as an insulator between the stove and the walls. In fact, on my wood stove I get it glowing cherry hot and still touch the walls 24 inches away.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. DHS Email on SCBA
    By BC79er_OLDDELETE in forum Federal FIRE ACT Grants & Funding
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 10-06-2007, 12:13 PM
  2. SOP's for Volunteer FD
    By rumlfire in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 11:35 PM
  3. Another for what were they thinking file.
    By stm4710 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 08-15-2005, 07:30 PM
  4. Civilian Fire Fatalities
    By DCFF in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 02-08-2002, 09:18 AM
  5. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 09:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register