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    Default Quint/Aerial vs straight ladder truck

    A question. Why do some depts prefer a ladder truck without pump, hose etc vs a quint or aerial as we call them. It would seem to me that a quint is much more versatile and gives any crew more options. What we call an aerial in Western Canada seems to be what you call a quint. As far as I know, we've never had an ordinary straight ladder truck around here. Any particular reason why you use straight ladders rather than Quint/Aerial?

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    It is a mater of preference. Some cities, like Richmond, Virginia and St. Louis, Missouri went to the Quint concept due to financial and fleet age concerns.

    A neighboring community is purchasing a quint due to manpower... they have 4 to 5 on duty maximum, two of which are assigned to the ambulance. Their old aerial did not pass inspection, parts were no longer available. They depended on aerial coverage fro the surrounding towns and still do, as the rig is presently being built.

    Part of the problem with quints are the complexity of the rigs, especially with everything being computer controlled and multiplexed. Another problem is the politicians, who see quints as a way to cut staffing levels.

    My FD has a straight stick and a tower ladder (the tower isn't in service yet)
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    We have always purchased "straight" trucks here because we have always utilized them and their crews in the truck company role exclusively. It is possible however that when or if we purchase a new aerial it will have a pump on it, as this is now the norm in their manufacture (it actually costs more to NOT have a pump now), but it will not be a quint.
    Many of us here (myself included) have found that when you try to build a rig that "does it all" you find that it does nothing well. There is only so much room on a rig and for us we carry a large compliment of portable ladders and truck co tools which would have to be reduced to make room for a tank, hose and appliances ect necessary to operate as an engine as well as a truck. There are always trade offs when saving money, but for us these operational trade offs are just not worth it.
    Another drawback of quints is that to realize their full "potential" two operators are required, one to pump and one to operate the aerial. Staffing is always an issue and justifying additional personnel is usually extremely difficult at best on the career side. For volunteers it comes down to having enough trained personnel available at any given time to operate the unit at it's full potential.
    Of course size/weight is also a factor, many of todays super duper rescue / pumper / tanker / quints are simply far to large to be effective in our response areas. In fact on numerous occasions our truck has been special called specifically because if it's smaller size and versatility.
    Now many many departments have come to utilze quints, some like Richmond VA or St. Louis have even come to use them exclusively, and that works for them. For us however the quint concept is not in line with our operational methods or our tactics...tactics by the way which have served us well. We see no need and have no desire to deviate from our proven "traditional" methods simply because that is what the Jones's are doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    A question. Why do some depts prefer a ladder truck without pump, hose etc vs a quint or aerial as we call them. It would seem to me that a quint is much more versatile and gives any crew more options. What we call an aerial in Western Canada seems to be what you call a quint. As far as I know, we've never had an ordinary straight ladder truck around here. Any particular reason why you use straight ladders rather than Quint/Aerial?
    This is almost a fog vs. smoothbore debate. My personal feeling is that Quints represent the epitome of "Jack of All Trades, Master of None". The fire service has suffered greatly by over extension of services, requiring all members to be well versed in far more subjects than ever before. The result is less practical knowledge of far more subjects.

    Many FD's use Quints to reduce companies by saying they can cover both engine or truck functions depending on which order they arrive. But this requires staff to be well versed in both and it's pretty clear that single function companies are better at their functions than multi-role companies in most cases. Is that a big deal? Well, for how many years have we had to make "Back to basics" a priority? Why is Truck work considered the " Lost Art of the Fire Service" and even now it seems we're getting sloppy at stretching lines.

    There's also the equipment limitations that speccing a quint can bring about. Some FD's will see no difference while others will no longer be able to carry nearly their previous ladder compliment on a new quint as the water tank and pump take up valuable real estate. And issues with the truck are compounded with multiple systems to maintain, taking the multi-function apparatus and company out of service more often than a single role. This issue is even worse when the Quint was used to reduce stations or companies and now cover units are even further away.

    Of course Quints work, and well in some places. Many rural areas nearly necessitate Quints as long narrow driveways are more common and the first piece in owns the yard, and limits any others.

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    When fire companies are defined as engine and truck companies and there are more than enough engines to do the pumping there is no real need for quints. The defined work of engines and ladders remains seperate and skill sets remain high. It isn't that the firefighters can't do the work of the other company, it is that their skills are more finely honed to their primary task.

    As previously stated in other possts when they are used in most career FD's they are used as a cost savings measure and they replace an engine and a truck and manpower is cut. The concept of the quint alone is not bad, it is how they are staffed and utilized that is bad. It does no good to replace an engine with 3 or 4 and a truck with 3 or 4 with a quint with 3 or 4 firefighters. Anyone can see that staffing has been cut and workload increased. Efficiency is destroyed because one job or the other is not getting done, or at least not getting done by that quint crew.

    If you take a quint and staff it with the same number of firefighters that previously staffed the individual engine and truck then you have a viable multi-purpose rig. You actually could split the crew and do both engine and truck work from that one rig. Unfortunately Ihave NEVER seen that ccur.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    This is almost a fog vs. smoothbore debate. My personal feeling is that Quints represent the epitome of "Jack of All Trades, Master of None". The fire service has suffered greatly by over extension of services, requiring all members to be well versed in far more subjects than ever before. The result is less practical knowledge of far more subjects.
    So then you would agree that removing EMS from the fire service is a good thing.

    Many FD's use Quints to reduce companies by saying they can cover both engine or truck functions depending on which order they arrive. But this requires staff to be well versed in both and it's pretty clear that single function companies are better at their functions than multi-role companies in most cases. Is that a big deal? Well, for how many years have we had to make "Back to basics" a priority? Why is Truck work considered the " Lost Art of the Fire Service" and even now it seems we're getting sloppy at stretching lines.

    There's also the equipment limitations that speccing a quint can bring about. Some FD's will see no difference while others will no longer be able to carry nearly their previous ladder compliment on a new quint as the water tank and pump take up valuable real estate. And issues with the truck are compounded with multiple systems to maintain, taking the multi-function apparatus and company out of service more often than a single role. This issue is even worse when the Quint was used to reduce stations or companies and now cover units are even further away.

    Of course Quints work, and well in some places. Many rural areas nearly necessitate Quints as long narrow driveways are more common and the first piece in owns the yard, and limits any others.

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    We don't have ladders or quints. So I have a question. If the quint arrives and sets up pumping operation it is stuck there. Does this mean you have to break it down and move it if it is needed on the other side of the structure for ladder work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    We don't have ladders or quints. So I have a question. If the quint arrives and sets up pumping operation it is stuck there. Does this mean you have to break it down and move it if it is needed on the other side of the structure for ladder work?
    Duh..................
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    We don't have ladders or quints. So I have a question. If the quint arrives and sets up pumping operation it is stuck there. Does this mean you have to break it down and move it if it is needed on the other side of the structure for ladder work?

    I know with ours (75ft straight stick) if it is pumping it is not moving. You could stil set it up but its pretty much not going anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    A question. Why do some depts prefer a ladder truck without pump, hose etc vs a quint or aerial as we call them. It would seem to me that a quint is much more versatile and gives any crew more options. Any particular reason why you use straight ladders rather than Quint/Aerial?
    Much has been addressed regarding staffing etc. While a quint can offer more options, it also removes some options, because the pump, water tank, and hose compliment will take up a lot more space that could be used for special equipment. For the most part you can get enough engines on a scene to handle your pumping needs, a truck really doesn't need to be another pump.

    I can see the option that you can take one rig to both pump and be a ladder, but as noted, if both options are going to be used together, you are stuck in the position the rig is placed and operations.

    As for staffing and seperate job skills, I will disagree. While in some bigger cities and depts you see people assigned to trucks and engines based on skills noted during training, I don't see that as reason for not learning the other job. As a volunteer we did not have a truck and saws, etc were carried on a couple pumps, so you could be tasked with either truck or engine ops. On the dept I'm on now, one could be on the pump one day, the truck the next and rescue the next day. There is no skill set to distinguish which rig you go to because you should be versed in the operations and tasks of either. This also means on the fireground a pump can be doing tasks traditionally viewed as truck, if the truck crew is cutting a hole, a pump can be sent in for search.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Hi folks,

    I just wanted to share a few articles and podcasts from the Firehouse.com archives that may assist you decide about the quints.


    http://www.firehouse.com/topics/stra...day-role-quint
    http://www.firehouse.com/podcast/app...firehouse-expo
    http://www.firehouse.com/podcast/app...ects-live-fdic
    http://www.firehouse.com/podcast/app...current-trends

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFPCogs08 View Post
    We have always purchased "straight" trucks here because we have always utilized them and their crews in the truck company role exclusively. It is possible however that when or if we purchase a new aerial it will have a pump on it, as this is now the norm in their manufacture (it actually costs more to NOT have a pump now), but it will not be a quint.
    Many of us here (myself included) have found that when you try to build a rig that "does it all" you find that it does nothing well. There is only so much room on a rig and for us we carry a large compliment of portable ladders and truck co tools which would have to be reduced to make room for a tank, hose and appliances ect necessary to operate as an engine as well as a truck. There are always trade offs when saving money, but for us these operational trade offs are just not worth it.
    Another drawback of quints is that to realize their full "potential" two operators are required, one to pump and one to operate the aerial. Staffing is always an issue and justifying additional personnel is usually extremely difficult at best on the career side. For volunteers it comes down to having enough trained personnel available at any given time to operate the unit at it's full potential.
    Of course size/weight is also a factor, many of todays super duper rescue / pumper / tanker / quints are simply far to large to be effective in our response areas. In fact on numerous occasions our truck has been special called specifically because if it's smaller size and versatility.
    Now many many departments have come to utilze quints, some like Richmond VA or St. Louis have even come to use them exclusively, and that works for them. For us however the quint concept is not in line with our operational methods or our tactics...tactics by the way which have served us well. We see no need and have no desire to deviate from our proven "traditional" methods simply because that is what the Jones's are doing.
    I agree 100% with you. We operate with a 100 ft. tower. The truck has a pump but their is no tank. When your on the truck company your jobs are search, vent, overhaul etc. I understand with the tough times of towns laying off and man power issues. But when a company gets a quint more or less its being used as an engine more then a ladder. A ladder is vital to the operation at a fire scene and they shouldn't be used as engines.
    Stay safe!

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    Thanks to everyone for explaining their positions. I guess that we just have never used a straight ladder and don't have separate engine, truck and rescue crews. You can go back and forth depending on situation and your Captain. Only back and forth the aerial guys get is that everyone says they only go on aerials due to penis envy. Can't attest one way or another to that. Everyone is trained from day 1 at the academy on all types of fire trucks, pumper, aerial and rescue. It seems to work and has never been seriously considered for change. When I first came on the dept in 73, there was some discussion on this. I believe a Capt had served on an American dept and after marrying a Canadian girl, moved up here and came on. One old crusty Capt. gone now God Bless him, told the local media during an interview " Why the F--k would you send a fire truck to a fire that couldn't squirt water" Never was aired or printed verbatim, but that was the end of discussion. I guess it works for us and probably will stay that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    You can go back and forth depending on situation and your Captain. Only back and forth the aerial guys get is that everyone says they only go on aerials due to penis envy. Can't attest one way or another to that.
    Envy? Whoever said owning a aerial ladder is because of penis envy is a complete moron. Our 100 foot tower is vital to our response area and many others. I have high rise buildings as well as a fairly large commercial area. Our second due ladder into town is a 100 foot stick. A tower ladder allows 2 fire fighters to be in a bucket and have a safe operation of getting victims out as well as watching fire operation during an exterior attack. A positive on a stick is it can fit in places a tower may not be able to get through due to the overhang of the bucket or the width of the bucket. Both have its positives and negatives. If you are able to have both at a scene you are very well equipped. A lot of departments still to this day do not understand the importance of the truck.
    Stay safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrose33 View Post
    Envy? Whoever said owning a aerial ladder is because of penis envy is a complete moron. Our 100 foot tower is vital to our response area and many others. I have high rise buildings as well as a fairly large commercial area. Our second due ladder into town is a 100 foot stick. A tower ladder allows 2 fire fighters to be in a bucket and have a safe operation of getting victims out as well as watching fire operation during an exterior attack. A positive on a stick is it can fit in places a tower may not be able to get through due to the overhang of the bucket or the width of the bucket. Both have its positives and negatives. If you are able to have both at a scene you are very well equipped. A lot of departments still to this day do not understand the importance of the truck.
    It is said in a joke dummy. FFs and many other occupations and professions do this regularly. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, what works for you is great. I simply said that we have never used a straight ladder, don't have separate pumpers, aerials and rescue crews. If you look on google earth, you will see there are one or two buildings still standing. No need for you to drive your truck up here and show us how wrong we've been for 120 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    It is said in a joke dummy. FFs and many other occupations and professions do this regularly. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, what works for you is great. I simply said that we have never used a straight ladder, don't have separate pumpers, aerials and rescue crews. If you look on google earth, you will see there are one or two buildings still standing. No need for you to drive your truck up here and show us how wrong we've been for 120 years.
    Trust me I am all in when it comes to Jokes. You gotta have a tough skin when it comes to this business. But sadly there are departments who don't believe in the use of ladder trucks and I wouldnt be surprised to hear a statement about how big ladders are and why towns need such a big truck etc. If it works for your department having a quint thats awesome. Just around here the quints I see most are getting used improperly.

    It would be a long drive to come up with mine anways and I dont think my department would be very fawned of me bringing it just for a show and tell
    Stay safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrose33 View Post
    Trust me I am all in when it comes to Jokes. You gotta have a tough skin when it comes to this business. But sadly there are departments who don't believe in the use of ladder trucks and I wouldnt be surprised to hear a statement about how big ladders are and why towns need such a big truck etc. If it works for your department having a quint thats awesome. Just around here the quints I see most are getting used improperly.

    It would be a long drive to come up with mine anways and I dont think my department would be very fawned of me bringing it just for a show and tell
    No problem. I don't really know how to utilise a strictly straight ladder truck as we never have used them. There have been occaisions where the only fire trucks at a fire were an aerial and a rescue because the halls pumpers were on another call. Not sure what use a fire truck with no water capability would have been, there was no personnel to be rescued and next pumpers were maybe 7 to 8 minutes away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jccrabby3084 View Post
    As for staffing and seperate job skills, I will disagree. While in some bigger cities and depts you see people assigned to trucks and engines based on skills noted during training, I don't see that as reason for not learning the other job. As a volunteer we did not have a truck and saws, etc were carried on a couple pumps, so you could be tasked with either truck or engine ops. On the dept I'm on now, one could be on the pump one day, the truck the next and rescue the next day. There is no skill set to distinguish which rig you go to because you should be versed in the operations and tasks of either. This also means on the fireground a pump can be doing tasks traditionally viewed as truck, if the truck crew is cutting a hole, a pump can be sent in for search.
    I should have added that basic engine and truck training should be (is?) mandatory for all. I'm not sure anyone still runs with crews that cannot perform the other tasks? It's just that if your normal shift is always on the truck you'll tend to be a little better at truck work, than similar guys who are normally on the engine, who aren't good at much! Kidding, really!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    No problem. I don't really know how to utilise a strictly straight ladder truck as we never have used them.
    Sure you do. If you're spotting your quint right: for aerial placement first, hoselines a distant second, you're starting off well. Next you go about the truck work and let someone else worry about hoses and water. On the other hand take a single role company and give them a quint, not quite as easy.

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    So to bring this back to the original topic and fire a shot across (I said ACROSS her nose, not UP it!!!) the bow of the voluntarily exiled Quintee: we're all in agreement that aerials are "straight" and quints are well...something else? Quite probably involving the wearing of pink tu-tus as proper PPE???
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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    On my dept we all start as Engine guys. When you have a few years on you can get Truck training and certs. We run three types of Trucks/Quints mine is a 95ft. platform with a pump and booster tank it looks like this

    http://ocfr51.com/t51.html

    We also run 114ft Brontos and 75ft sticks they are actually called "Quints" by our dept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    No problem. I don't really know how to utilise a strictly straight ladder truck as we never have used them. There have been occaisions where the only fire trucks at a fire were an aerial and a rescue because the halls pumpers were on another call. Not sure what use a fire truck with no water capability would have been, there was no personnel to be rescued and next pumpers were maybe 7 to 8 minutes away.
    Most of the time in my area and in all the cities the trucks are almost always followed by an engine except for certain response plans and if a ladder is first due to a fire the engine is always moments away. If a ladder company has to make an attempt at extinguishment they can use water cans or other extinguishers. Its actually surprising how much fire you can k/d with a water can. My dept has a pump on our tower but no water. So if we do arrive first we can get a hydrant and pump the 2 crosslays.
    Stay safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac73 View Post
    On my dept we all start as Engine guys. When you have a few years on you can get Truck training and certs. We run three types of Trucks/Quints mine is a 95ft. platform with a pump and booster tank it looks like this

    http://ocfr51.com/t51.html

    We also run 114ft Brontos and 75ft sticks they are actually called "Quints" by our dept.
    Do you like the brontos?
    Stay safe!

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    Running in a quint concept city had advantages and disadvantages. We currently have been using the total quint concept since 1998. I will list the pro and cons as i see them.

    Cons-
    Less ground ladders the NFPA standard is only 85' for quints. We currently run with 113'. And on a full box assignment we get 452' of ground ladders. So that point is kind of moot.

    Hose loads are difficult for non-preconnect operations. I.E.- reverse lays, leader lines, etc.

    Compartment Space is at a bare min. when you add both engine and truck equipment.

    Switching from Engine and Truck work dependant on response order. This does not allow the firefighter to become a true master of either. Also if response order changes upon arrival the company must switch gears suddenly.

    Maintance- Running a heavy quint up and down city streets tears them up.

    Access- It is very hard to access tight urban streets and alleys in the larger quints.

    Manpower- this depends on how you look at the numbers. whilie the number of people went up that actually respond to a box alarm when we switched. The number of firefighter on shift across the entire city dropped.

    PROs-

    Plenty of elevated master streams on large jobs. With running a 4 quints on a box and getting an additional 2 on the upgrade for a working fire we very rarely have to go to a 2nd alarm for defensive operations. Six aerial master streams can knock down alot of fire.

    allows the firefigther to gain experience in both engine and truck work. It makes it fun for the firefighter. One fire i am an engine man. the next one i might be a truckie. (not an offical pro but still a positive)



    overall the quint concept is not liked by the line personel. Most of them want the engines and truck back. I personaly do not have a valid opnion due to never having operated in a traditional engine truck fire department. So i cannot say i like one or the other. In the end the trucks are not what put out the fires it is the firefighters on the truck. The aggressiveness and determination of the company is what makes it all work.

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    name wise, I think people just wanted something to argue about for quint vs aerial vs straight truck. If someone says "send me an aerial" it really doesn't matter if there is a pump on it or not as long as the vehicle coming has an aerial ladder on it. I don't really see why we have to knit pick. Unless you have some sort of unique situation where you need something with a pump and aerial theres no point to specify that you need a quint. Ask for the tool you need on it, the aerial.

    Quints are nice because you have a lot of options functionally. But with the pump house and these side hose beds that are all the rage you lose a lot of compartment space. Losing the extra weight from the pump and water would let you put on more equipment or improve vehicle life and performance.

    I do agree with other posters that have hinted at the idea. It seems quints have a tendency to pick engine work more often than not if they are in a situation to choose functions. Which can throw an unnecessary curve ball for responding companies. IMHO I like the division of labor from trucks and engines. Someone said it before, a quint that pulls lines is anchored for an incident. Not good when there aren't a lot of aerials on scene, or all the large quints have choked up the area so you can't jockey the truck around.

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