1. #251
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    I have been off the forums for awhile and must admit I've seen this LA guy around in a few key areas and none of them illustrated his experience as eloquently as the post a few above this one. The suggestion that anyone who spent a life training in our discipline is going to stand around with a couple million dollars of apparatus and some rough men who stand ready to commit any act to watch a house burn down with people inside it...

    Again, in a rural enviroment the house is often burnt down on arrival. No matter how rough the men are they can't change the fact the the occupants are dead, and likely have been dead for quite awhile.

    If the structure and the victims are viable and you have sufficient personnel, with sufficient training and experience, as well as adequate resources and water supply, you make the attempt. If any of the above are not in place, it's simply not your day and making the attempt will likely only lead to firefighter injuries and possibly death with no realistic liklihood of changing the outcome.

    I never said not make the attempt, but make the attempt only make the attempt if your training, experience, mapower and resources will allow your manpower to walk away.

    Accept the fact that some departments resources will allow them to make the attempt often, and there are some departments that will never be able to safely make the attempt.

  2. #252
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    It is okay sometimes to caress from the exterior.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    It is okay sometimes to caress from the exterior.
    And THIS happens HOW often with you? Hehe T.C.

  4. #254
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    Why not just turn all "firefighting" duties to the DPW, and become EMS/Tech Rescue/HAZMAT Depts?
    If you are not willing to risk it all to save a life, then why bother showing up?

    We are no different then Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen, or LEOs. We are here to save lives, and sometimes that means laying ours down so that others may live.


    Fracking puusies.
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  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    Thanks for the US only stat- Not exactly the yearly average I was referring to.

    Stay reckless...
    I don't see anyone advocating being reckless, except you??
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, in a rural enviroment the house is often burnt down on arrival. No matter how rough the men are they can't change the fact the the occupants are dead, and likely have been dead for quite awhile.
    If ya'll are having this issue, you have more problems than you think. For one, your stations are too far and too few between then. Or, ya'll must have only trailer parks in you area. It being rural doesn't mean that the house is going to already be burned pretty much to the ground and everyone pretty much dead, that's just a bull butter comment. Again, if it is happening where you're at, you need to press your governing body for more stations to fill in the gaps.

    Accept the fact that some departments resources will allow them to make the attempt often, and there are some departments that will never be able to safely make the attempt.
    WHAT????

  7. #257
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    when is everyone going to realize you can't forum post the courage into LAfire?

    give it up, his whole reason for being is to argue with everyone else.

    leave him alone and he'll eventually disappear.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    when is everyone going to realize you can't forum post the courage into LAfire?

    give it up, his whole reason for being is to argue with everyone else.

    leave him alone and he'll eventually disappear.
    I wished that was true, but like herpes, just when you think their gone, He shows back up!
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
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    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
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  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    I wished that was true, but like herpes, just when you think their gone, He shows back up!
    I'm sorry to hear about that......






















































































































































































  10. #260
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    Your turn snowball, I see you lurking in here /you're always good for a funny
    Last edited by thedozer; 12-24-2010 at 03:39 PM.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    Thanks for the US only stat- Not exactly the yearly average I was referring to.

    Stay reckless...
    Whoosh, point over head.

    Though while incredibly bored while I was supposed to be wrapping the Mrs Christmas presents and avoiding that debacle, I did look up the Canadian LODD stats on the IAFF website.

    Needless to say, Canadian stats about LODD mirror very closely to US stats.

    So once again, the fireground and being reckless is not killing over 100 firefighters a year.

    I'll gladly stay "reckless".
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  12. #262
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    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Or so I read in a book!
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
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    -WINSTON CHURCHILL

  13. #263
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    Thumbs down

    Sigh...

    Unreal.

    It's no wonder you can't hear me... way back there in the 60s.
    Ian "Eno" McLeod

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    Sigh...

    Unreal.

    It's no wonder you can't hear me... way back there in the 60s.
    Are you talking to yourself or what? Your last two posts have been way out in left field.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    Sigh...

    Unreal.

    It's no wonder you can't hear me... way back there in the 60s.
    Try a rotary dial...

    By the way, wtf are you talking about??
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Try a rotary dial...

    By the way, wtf are you talking about??

    another "brother" from outside of the US pulling the safety card on us again.

    cute.

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    By the way, wtf are you talking about??
    You see, it goes like this.

    Eno305 said, and I quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    Writing off your guys to save an insurance company some money isn't what we do- though we used to do that a lot. I think we're moving forward from that mentality though we keep losing 150 guys on the job on average every year-
    To which, I pointed out to yet another "Oh we're being to reckless" type, that we are not killing 100, 150 or even 1,000 firefighters a year from being too "reckless".

    He didn't like that. Yet another that doesn't like that pesky little fact that less than 40% of all firefighters killed every year die conducting or being in close proximaty to the fire.

    They don't like knowing that some of us are too old, too fat and too sick which brings our numbers WAY up.

    So I am gladly staying "reckless".

    Merry Bah Humbug too.
    Co 11
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    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post
    You see, it goes like this.

    Eno305 said, and I quote:



    To which, I pointed out to yet another "Oh we're being to reckless" type, that we are not killing 100, 150 or even 1,000 firefighters a year from being too "reckless".

    He didn't like that. Yet another that doesn't like that pesky little fact that less than 40% of all firefighters killed every year die conducting or being in close proximaty to the fire.

    They don't like knowing that some of us are too old, too fat and too sick which brings our numbers WAY up.

    So I am gladly staying "reckless".

    Merry Bah Humbug too.
    So what you are saying is that you find that 40% an acceptable number?

    Look at that 40%.

    How many are in abondoned structures? How many are killed attemtping to save lives? How many are killed in situations where the resources or training are marginal for the situation? How many are killed in specialized situations where they have no specialized training or specialized equipment for the specific situation, but yet make the attempt anyway rather than simply backing off and accecpting the situation is beyond thier abilities?

    How many are killed in structures that are already severly damaged and will be bulldozed, yet the IC continues interior operations?

    How many is for property that is already destroyed and simply can be hit from the outside, deckgunned or heaven forbid, allowed to burn out without any interior operations at all, including overhaul?

    The fact is I don't even accept that 40% because if you look at the deaths on a case by case basis rather than just "the 40%", we are not dying for lives, but we are dying in empty abandoned structures and dying saving property.

    That is the unacceptable part.

    As far as physicals, I have challenged you to present a detailed plan on how the volunteer fire service will handle both the cost of physcals and the cost of replacing volunteers who fail them to keep thier current level of service without hiring staff, which is simply not and never will be an option in most communtities served by VFDs.

    You have yet to post that plan.

    Physicals will have a devesating impact on the volunteer service, and without significant non-local funding, it's simply unrealistic to believe that the impacts will not devastate some, if not many, small, rural VFDs both in terms of finance and manpower levels.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-25-2010 at 09:52 AM.

  19. #269
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    Why am I even going to bother on this Bah Humbug Day, but it is amusing for so many of us to see the egg drip off his face.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what you are saying is that you find that 40% an acceptable number?

    Look at that 40%.

    How many are in abondoned structures?
    Answer, On-Scene Fire, Vacant Property = 7 between 2001-2009.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    How many are killed in situations where the resources or training are marginal for the situation? How many are killed in specialized situations where they have no specialized training or specialized equipment for the specific situation, but yet make the attempt anyway rather than simply backing off and accecpting the situation is beyond thier abilities?
    Answer: Maybe they are human beings and tried to help another human being in need. This is an unanswerable question to many normal people who have thoughts and emotions. Unlike you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is I don't even accept that 40% because if you look at the deaths on a case by case basis rather than just "the 40%", we are not dying for lives, but we are dying in empty abandoned structures and dying saving property.
    Already debunked. Second problem with this statement, you don't do $hit for anyone for any reason. I honestly believe you carry a giant book of excuses around with you, and find one that matches the given visual clues in front of you and use that one.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as physicals, I have challenged you to present a detailed plan on how the volunteer fire service will handle both the cost of physcals and the cost of replacing volunteers who fail them to keep thier current level of service without hiring staff, which is simply not and never will be an option in most communtities served by VFDs.

    You have yet to post that plan.

    Physicals will have a devesating impact on the volunteer service, and without significant non-local funding, it's simply unrealistic to believe that the impacts will not devastate some, if not many, small, rural VFDs both in terms of finance and manpower levels.
    Answer: I and many others have posted and suggested many different routes and avenues to approach this from. Again, if you want to present to me a specific community, I am sure I can do research and formulate a plan and everything else mainly because I accept that this accounts for just about 60% of LODD's every year and want to change it.

    You on the other hand, open up the book of excuses and continue to accept that, once again:

    "A one time funeral is cheaper than a yearly physical" Anything that is required to keep your volunteer staffing numbers. Except for YOUR job of course.

    And that is, shall I quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is the unacceptable part.
    Normally I would add Merry Bah Humbug to the end of this, but because its you. Go phuck yourself
    Co 11
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    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  20. #270
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    What I find interesting is that LA always wants to give reasons why he thinks we shouldn't go fight the fire (the "40 percent" number that has already been proven otherwise) yet he never mentions what he would like to see done about the 60 percent that doesnt have to do with fire. Are you in the best shape possible Bobby? Do you have a yearly physical? Do you push for all your personnel to do the same?

    Once again, just him trying to use a set of numbers that he isn't even knowledgeable on as an excuse for cowardice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what you are saying is that you find that 40% an acceptable number?

    Look at that 40%.

    How many are in abondoned structures? How many are killed attemtping to save lives? How many are killed in situations where the resources or training are marginal for the situation? How many are killed in specialized situations where they have no specialized training or specialized equipment for the specific situation, but yet make the attempt anyway rather than simply backing off and accecpting the situation is beyond thier abilities?

    How many are killed in structures that are already severly damaged and will be bulldozed, yet the IC continues interior operations?

    How many is for property that is already destroyed and simply can be hit from the outside, deckgunned or heaven forbid, allowed to burn out without any interior operations at all, including overhaul?

    The fact is I don't even accept that 40% because if you look at the deaths on a case by case basis rather than just "the 40%", we are not dying for lives, but we are dying in empty abandoned structures and dying saving property.

    That is the unacceptable part.

    As far as physicals, I have challenged you to present a detailed plan on how the volunteer fire service will handle both the cost of physcals and the cost of replacing volunteers who fail them to keep thier current level of service without hiring staff, which is simply not and never will be an option in most communtities served by VFDs.

    You have yet to post that plan.

    Physicals will have a devesating impact on the volunteer service, and without significant non-local funding, it's simply unrealistic to believe that the impacts will not devastate some, if not many, small, rural VFDs both in terms of finance and manpower levels.
    I can't believe people debate you on this issue, you have no credibility. Your BS excuses on cardiac health are pathetic.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  22. #272
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    9/10 times, the people against a physical are ones who know it will jeopardize their job.

    They use the "my body, my rules" way of thinking and never consider the other 2 able bodies who will have to go in and get him.

    Physicals put one job at risk
    not doing physicals put 3 lives at risk.

    Coward uses the "bravado/machoism" of the fire service to make his "logical thinking" seem the right way to go but fails to understand why he's the only one who follows it. I don't do my job to go back and tell a bunch of people, I don't go in to look for victims even if the house appears vacant just to say i'm a bad ***.

    Not speaking for everyone here but we do it because its our job. Because the guys on our crew would do it for us. It's our job. If you don't feel comfortable doing it then you have no reason to be here. It's totally acceptable if you don't feel compelled to help or capable of laying it on the line, but its not acceptable here. You knew the risk when you signed up for this, to use your right to go home at night as an excuse just robs the victims of the same right.

    You know you have no place here, why do you return? Why are you allowed to return?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    How many are in abondoned structures?
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    we are not dying for lives, but we are dying in empty abandoned structures and dying saving property.

    There is no such thing as an abandoned structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That is the unacceptable part.
    Did you take the same oath as I? I swore to protect life annnnd PROPERTY.

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by tny1771 View Post
    There is no such thing as an abandoned structure.
    *only unoccupied*
    fixed.

    No structure is unoccupied until searched just as every alarm is a fire alarm until investigated, then it becomes a false alarm.

    You wouldn't just assume its a false alarm, why would you assume its unoccupied?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    fixed.

    No structure is unoccupied until searched just as every alarm is a fire alarm until investigated, then it becomes a false alarm.

    You wouldn't just assume its a false alarm, why would you assume its unoccupied?

    Exactly. And that is the point we're both making that some will never except.

    Since I was quoting him, I was careful not to say "unoccupied" (even though that's what he's impling) since he actually typed "abandoned". Then it could be said I was taking his words out of context.

    It's a shame, but word games on here can result in going way off point, so I try to be as accurate as possible when quoting.

    Either/or, we're on the same point.

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