1. #376
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    LaFire:
    Where in NFPA standards or job duties does it say to come home at the end of the day?
    IT SAYS HIGH-RISK JOB, NOT FOR FEINT OF HEART.


    Huh??????

  2. #377
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    Radiation Exposure to nearby structures.

    ?????????????????????

  3. #378
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    All three of the FD's you mentioned have extensive waterfronts.. yes, they do draft, they do relay pumping, they even have areas where they have wildfires.... it's part of Firefighter 1-2 certification.

    Great. We train our members to draft too. We really don't talk much about relay pumping because it's simply not a part of aour standard operation. it's covered during driver training, not firefiefighter training, but again, it's something we are not very likely to utilize.

    Something tells me though if I trhew a NY, Boston or Baltimore firefighter into a fast-moving tanker shuttle, or told them they had to setup the operation including the dump-site layout, they would probably be pretty lost.

    I doubt it's a skill set they spend much time on, and there is a reason for that - They don't utilize it.



    Massachusetts does it in their call.volunteer program.. it tales them 6 months, but it can and is done. Another point of yours shot.

    So how many hours is that program? 60? 80? 100? 120? 200?

    I have no problem with that as long as it's optional after the member has been trained in-house or is allowed to run on calls while in the program. Seems reasonable.

    The fact is I doubt that a 6-month program meeting nights and some weekends totals to the same hours the SC is talking about, which is a full 16-24 week academy running 8 hours every day.

    I have no issue with volunteers taking FFI, FFII or other specialzed classes if they wish and thier work and family schedules allow for that. We encourage it. We teach the classes or pay for the classes to be taken outside. We reward them for it. We simply don't require it unless they are looking for promotion because our initial training covers the basics of our operations. The rest of the skills we require they will learn over time through department training and in-house special drills/training.

    By the way, a 16-week academy totals out to a minimum of 640 hours. A 24-week academy totals out to at least 960 hours.

    I think most would agree that volunteers meeting the same requirements as a career firefighters attending a 640-960 hour academy as a paid employee may be just a bit of a problem and pretty unrealistic.

    Really? Fire and fire ops are different in rural Bossier Parish Looziana than in Orange County, Cali?

    Actually, yes. No multi-story structures. One two-story apartments complex. No townhouses. Two commercial buildings w/ sprinkler systems. No large manufacturing facilties. No waterfront complexes. No marine complx, harbors or marinas. No CFR situations. No large warehouses. No large retail, strip mall, etc. buildings...... And the wildfires are much different, though certainly more energenic than most northeastern fires (note most for those of you in the Pine Barrens)

    As I said, a much simplier structural stock and much fewer potential rescue issues.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-27-2010 at 03:08 PM.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I really enjoy the correction to your own statement. I took what you said and really changed nothing at all and you still disagree. Sucks to be you.


    My statement:
    (Or at least it's where I think you took your statemet from)

    It's simply not an issue. We fight the fire interior in unoccupied or vacant buildings that are still structurally sound if it's within our abilities given the manpower and water supply on hand, which is most of the time. The hose teams will search as they go but it's rare that we have committed search teams as we find hose teams can do a pretty good job handling both roles.

    We will not enter buildings that we have deemed abondoned because the are structurally unsound due to age or lack of maintainence unless we have an external sign of occupancy or a confirmed or extremlly credible source of information indicating occupancy. Why? See above - occupancy of these buildings is simply not an issue within our district. Could they be occupied? Sure, but given history it's extremly unlikely and comes down to rsik v. benefit.


    Your statement:

    We fight the fire interior in any buildings that are still structurally sound if it's within our abilities given the manpower and water supply on hand, which is most of the time. We will not enter buildings that are structurally unsound due to age or lack of maintainence unless we have an external sign of occupancy or a confirmed or extremlly credible source of information indicating occupancy


    I added a reasonable degree of safety, which has always been part of my mantra, and the section on truss construction since you seemed to want a blanket statement covering all types of buildings.

    Pretty much the same statement though.

  5. #380
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    "When you have some real experience, we can talk about this."
    Ya got me there, but where would you go if your house burned down because you didn't respond as stated in your SOGs and SOPs?
    Would you be allowed to live at the station?
    Ok here's this, a tour bus is driving down I-20 and pulls over due to white smoke coming from the engine compartment.

    You get paged out to a tour bus with a little bit of white smoke coming from the engine.
    - you tell your crew not to pack out, (which from a certain unit at BPFD#1) no one packs out anyways at car fires,
    - You run code 2 because you're like whatever it's nothing,
    - You arrive with the front half of the bus engulfed in flames,
    - All occupants of the bus are moving towards the back,
    - The back door is jammed and your rescue truck hasn't arrived on scene yet due to being stopped at a red light at an intersection.
    You attempt to gain access to the back door and fail,
    - The rescue truck arrives just as the bus becomes fully involved.

    Here's what happened old timer:
    You delayed your response
    You are responsible for the death of the riders
    You now have to live with a guily conscious for not being able to enter the bus.
    You and your crew are not able to begin recovery efforts and waste time due to donning your airpacks.
    You also lost your job for ordering your crew not to pack out.
    You also have cancer for breathing all that nasty stuff.
    So old timer, what is your response now?
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  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Here's the difference. Most volunteer, such as my volunteer gig and smaller/mediu, sized cobo departments, such as my fulltime gig has very limited possibilities combo. We deal with a limited and consistant housing stock, very limited industrial operations, very limited haz-mat. limited resue possibilities as well as other predicatable responses. The fact we can narrow down what we are likely to face and what skills are needed to deal with them.
    I can probably write down on half a sheet of paper what type of occupancies we will see fire in, and another half on all the other fire and rescue situations we are likely to deal with.
    And that difference makes them inferior in their ability and capability.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They are generally less well trained, especially in specialized areas, and less experienced, due to fewer runs, than career firefighters.

    Doesn't make them inferior though. That's you anti-volunteer bias.
    These two statements are contradictory. Please make up your mind. If they (by your own admission) are less trained and experienced, that makes them inferior.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-27-2010 at 03:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My combo department (full-time job) is twice as good as I say they are.

    We almost always have enough manpower for residental operations. It's rare that water is an issue as we move water very well. There are some issues at the fringes of our district due to no hydrants and a lack of accessable drafting locations.

    The bottom line however is notification time and response time. If you look at rural operations, the bottom line is that if there is any delay in reporting the fire, and/or the fire happens to be at the outer edges of the district, the response time simply makes rescue an unlikley possibility. If the occupants have not escaped on thier own before our arrival, there is basically no chance that they are viable upon our arrival, especially given that the bulk of our rural housing stock are single-wides, double-wides and 70-year old wooden shotgun homes.

    That's not an excuse. That's the reality.

    My volunteer department is a different issue. While we do operate 2 6,000 gallon tankers and 3 of our 5 attack engines have 1500g tanks, manpower, especially daytime, makes it difficult at times to get the trucks on the road. In addition, drafting sites are few and far between, and hydrants are only located in the village with limted flows. Initial water supply is generally good, if we get enough drivers, but maintaining that supply can be a challenege due to some pretty extended travel times to fill points.

    While we have installed dry hydrants at just about every significant water source, dry weather creates further issues. As an example, due to the drought, currently 4 of our 7 water sources where we have installed dry hydrants are currently ....... dry.

    Manpower is also an issue due primarily to a very small, and by and large, older population within the district. While we do call mutual aid very early amd often, with the excetion of one city engine, travel distances for that aid is significant.
    The only thing I asked is quit lumping everyone together. I sick to death of it. What is your GPM on a water shuttle?

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    "When you have some real experience, we can talk about this."
    Ya got me there, but where would you go if your house burned down because you didn't respond as stated in your SOGs and SOPs?
    Would you be allowed to live at the station?
    Ok here's this, a tour bus is driving down I-20 and pulls over due to white smoke coming from the engine compartment.

    You get paged out to a tour bus with a little bit of white smoke coming from the engine.
    - you tell your crew not to pack out, (which from a certain unit at BPFD#1) no one packs out anyways at car fires,
    - You run code 2 because you're like whatever it's nothing,
    - You arrive with the front half of the bus engulfed in flames,
    - All occupants of the bus are moving towards the back,
    - The back door is jammed and your rescue truck hasn't arrived on scene yet due to being stopped at a red light at an intersection.
    You attempt to gain access to the back door and fail,
    - The rescue truck arrives just as the bus becomes fully involved.

    Here's what happened old timer:
    You delayed your response
    You are responsible for the death of the riders
    You now have to live with a guily conscious for not being able to enter the bus.
    You and your crew are not able to begin recovery efforts and waste time due to donning your airpacks.
    You also lost your job for ordering your crew not to pack out.
    You also have cancer for breathing all that nasty stuff.
    So old timer, what is your response now?
    You respond as per your department's policy. If your department has determined you run hot, you run hot. If they determine you run cold, you run cold.

    Currently my department's policy is to run hot on all calls, so that is how we respond to the bus incident.

    While your scenerio is possible, the question becomes how likley is it?

    How likely is it that the driver will not evacuate the bus?

    What are the chances of the occupants not self-evacuating the bus when the smoke appears?

    How fast will fire spread in that situation?

    What is the response time hot v. cold considering things such as traffic lights?

    How unlikley is it that you will not get updated information from either the driver or passing motorists?

    On the other side:

    What if the engine or rescue gets into an MVA because the driver blew a stop light?

    The fact is any policy can be "what-iffed" to death and no policy to provide firefighters with greater safety is foolproof, which is why a generic hot/cold policy will not work for every department. Department type, local hazards, fire history, traffic patterns and roadways and timed hot v. cold response analayis will all cause differing policies in differing communities.

    The fact is there are departments using these policies and they have all reported fewer accidents and reduced vehicle mainatainence costs. Obviously since they are still in place they work and they have not killed civilans or else they would no longer be in place.

    It's all about making a choice in terms of firefighter safety and reducing risk where it's reasonable to do so.

    As far as the airpack issue, that has nothing to do with this discussion and really doesn't need to be aired here.

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    The only thing I asked is quit lumping everyone together. I sick to death of it. What is your GPM on a water shuttle?
    My combo department flows 1900 gpm.

    My volunteer department flows 1300 gpm.

  10. #385
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    Consider this
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    While your scenerio is possible, the question becomes how likley is it
    It doesn't matter if it's highly likely or not, just possible. You've said countless times, scenario-based, and here is your scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    How likely is it that the driver will not evacuate the bus?
    - You arrive with the front half of the bus engulfed in flames,
    - All occupants of the bus are moving towards the back,
    NO ONE THOUGHT IT WAS ON FIRE, BECAUSE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, THEY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A REAL EMERGENCY.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What are the chances of the occupants not self-evacuating the bus when the smoke appears?
    - You arrive with the front half of the bus engulfed in flames,
    - All occupants of the bus are moving towards the back,
    NO ONE THOUGHT IT WAS ON FIRE, BECAUSE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, THEY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A REAL EMERGENCY.



    How fast will fire spread in that situation?
    You're the educator, not me.

    What is the response time hot v. cold considering things such as traffic lights?
    what if there is a traffic jam and no one can get through?

    How unlikley is it that you will not get updated information from either the driver or passing motorists?
    How likely isn't it?

    On the other side:

    What if the engine or rescue gets into an MVA because the driver blew a stop light?
    Driver's responsibility
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My combo department flows 1900 gpm.

    My volunteer department flows 1300 gpm.
    If you can flow that much then you cannot use the water supply as a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    If you can flow that much then you cannot use the water supply as a reason.
    I said, it could be a factor in our operation, though it is rarely an issue. For some rural departments, it is a more constant and persistant problem.

    The fact is any water flow demonstration is a scheduled event over a planned course, and will always yield better results than a real world event.

    I would say that in the real world, without utilizing mutual aid, the typical tanker flow for my combo (fulltime gig) department ranges from 700-1300 gpm depending on the area of the district and time of day.

    Again, even those flows are generally more than adequate for a typical residental structure fire.

    As far as my volunteer gig, real-world typical flows are very manpower dependant and probably range from 500-900 gpm with our typical limited mutual aid response. With so many dry hydrants dry due to the current drought, those flows may be optimistic in some parts of the district.

  13. #388
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    Fireguy ....

    What-ifs can be tossed around all day.

    Any department thinking about modifying an all-hot response to either partial hot/partial cold or all cold needs to go through a planning process that evalautes the hazards of the district v. the benefits of a mofied response system.

    Some departments may benefit from a modified response system. Some may not. That's why they need to evalaute the pros and cons before switching.

    I think, based on fire behavior and the volume of calls we recieve from passing motorists for any significant interstate event, your scenerio is somwhat unrealistic.

    But that's why it's a planning process and not a snap decision.

    (BY the way, the "engine compartment" on a tour bus is in the rear, not the front. It helps to know a little about vehicle design as well)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fireguy ....


    (BY the way, the "engine compartment" on a tour bus is in the rear, not the front. It helps to know a little about vehicle design as well)
    So fire can never happen in the front of a bus? I'll save my story then.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fireguy ....

    What-ifs can be tossed around all day.

    Any department thinking about modifying an all-hot response to either partial hot/partial cold or all cold needs to go through a planning process that evalautes the hazards of the district v. the benefits of a mofied response system.

    Some departments may benefit from a modified response system. Some may not. That's why they need to evalaute the pros and cons before switching.

    I think, based on fire behavior and the volume of calls we recieve from passing motorists for any significant interstate event, your scenerio is somwhat unrealistic.

    But that's why it's a planning process and not a snap decision.

    (BY the way, the "engine compartment" on a tour bus is in the rear, not the front. It helps to know a little about vehicle design as well)
    I never claimed to be a mechanic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    (BY the way, the "engine compartment" on a tour bus is in the rear, not the front. It helps to know a little about vehicle design as well)
    Your point beign what exactly? A bus can't hit another vehicle and said vehicle catch the front of the tour bus on fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    I never claimed to be a mechanic.
    Neither am I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Your point beign what exactly? A bus can't hit another vehicle and said vehicle catch the front of the tour bus on fire?
    That wasn't his scenario.

    I think we can all agree that a MVA involving a tour bus will likely never be deemed a cold response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Your point beign what exactly? A bus can't hit another vehicle and said vehicle catch the front of the tour bus on fire?
    No, it's never happened before, so how could it now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    So fire can never happen in the front of a bus? I'll save my story then.
    C'mon spit it out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That wasn't his scenario.

    I think we can all agree that a MVA involving a tour bus will likely never be deemed a cold response.
    GTG, my bad, I went back and read his scenario, so you saying brakes never catch on fire? Never say never is what I'm getting at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    No, it's never happened before, so how could it now?
    Actually we have responded to tour bus incidents on the interstate.

    They were before my time here, and my understanding is that they did turn out to be relativly minor events, though the completion of 60 patient refusals took more than few minutes.

    Nice way to take my discussion out of context though. I'm impressed.

    By the way, what part of the state are you from?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-27-2010 at 04:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    GTG, my bad, I went back and read his scenario, so you saying brakes never catch on fire? Never say never is what I'm getting at.
    We run to brake fires on the imnterstate all the time.

    We run hot.

    I don't recall atime where it was more than a few gallons of water through a booster line. Certainly could be more to it than that one day, but basing probabilities on past events ....

    Ifully understand "never say never" as that is basis of running hot on all calls, and there was a time when I beleived that as well. However, over time I have witnessed some pretty close calls in both POVs and apparatus, some of which were caused by civilains and some by our drivers (in multiple departments)that has made me question the wisdom of a one-size-fits-all response policy.

    There are trends in calls for service, and these trends can be used to develop responsible hot/cold response poilicies that allow for flexability as required by occupancy, dispatch information, building construction/fixed protection and other variables.

    It's simply a way of reducing risk through some very sound planning.

    Again, ask St. Louis as well as many other communities.

    By the way, given the route to the interstate, we could run cold with a minimum, if any, increase in response time 75% of the time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-27-2010 at 04:45 PM.

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    I wonder if St. Louis lost more houses that way than saving them if they got there quicker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    I wonder if St. Louis lost more houses that way than saving them if they got there quicker.
    I don't beleive St. Louis runs colds to structure fires.

    It's a major city and if the policy wasn't working, they would have scraped the system.

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