Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 16 of 30 FirstFirst ... 61314151617181926 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 320 of 591
  1. #301
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    History does not dictate the future. I pray your district will never find that out the hard way.

    Incorrect.

    History does indicate the liklihood of a particulair situation.

    Statistics gathered in a valid manner will produce staistically valid information which can be used to determine the liklihood of particuliar events.

    I'd love to continue this discussion, but it's time for bed.

    We disagree. We always will. Happy Holidays.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-25-2010 at 10:11 PM.


  2. #302
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Justify 3 civilians killed in a apparatus-car MVA during response.
    Or justify multiple fatalities as a result of the fire....in a building where false fire alarm activations were very routine.

    (This post not to be interpreted as a slam on the FD involved).
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  3. #303
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    360

    Default

    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1232773]
    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Justify 3 civilians killed in a apparatus-car MVA during response.
    Poor driver training, both civilian and emergency service, period!

  4. #304
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    948

    Default

    I dread to agree with our Bossier Parish friend, but...

    I don't see the need (in an all career department, with enough staffing and equipment to supply the balance of a full alarm) to run the full alarm assignment code 3 to an automatic alarm.

    We don't. For auto alarms in daytime, we send the first due company, code 1(cold) and at night send two units, the first due runs code 3 (hot), while second due runs code 1 (cold) in what is called a warm response.

    Here is the logic; at daytime if there is an automatic alarm that is a true emergency then someone will also call in. At night, there are less people around to call it in so the first due arrives hot with a second due close behind in case it turns out to be real. If at anytime the responding officer or dispatch gains information that it is an emergency then the box is filled with the remainder of the box assignment, code 3 (hot).

    On the other hand, every structure is considered occupied until proven otherwise. If conditions exist that enable a primary search then it is conducted.
    Last edited by FiremanLyman; 12-25-2010 at 10:35 PM.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  5. #305
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,126

    Default

    After reading the remarks by our Bossier buddy I've concluded we who disagree with him shouldn't be so quick to dismiss his perspective. The professionals on these boards committed our lives and energy to our profession. He believes much of the training we received wasn't necessary since it was unlikely to be used in his locale. Situations we might come across and run into a burning structure, because our training has helped us prepare for that possibility, and effect a safe rescue for both the victims and the rescuers he might perceive as being unsafe because he worked for a municipality that treated firefighting as a hobby and not a profession.

    Cut him some slack for his inferior abilities that are no fault of his own.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #306
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    After reading the remarks by our Bossier buddy I've concluded we who disagree with him shouldn't be so quick to dismiss his perspective. The professionals on these boards committed our lives and energy to our profession. He believes much of the training we received wasn't necessary since it was unlikely to be used in his locale. Situations we might come across and run into a burning structure, because our training has helped us prepare for that possibility, and effect a safe rescue for both the victims and the rescuers he might perceive as being unsafe because he worked for a municipality that treated firefighting as a hobby and not a profession.

    Cut him some slack for his inferior abilities that are no fault of his own.
    Nice slam. Well really not.

    Much of my experience and training was not acquired through my current department as I had almost 23 years in before relocating here. Much of my opinions about risk v. benefit were formed long before I moved to LA.

    This department does an excellent job of training it's members. Could there be improvement, yes. But in terms of the effort, staff time and funds used to train members both in-house and through outside training few compare.

    The fact is I am extremly conservative in terms of my firefighting philopsphies. I beleive that risk should be taken only in situations where the resources exist to change the outcome, and that change should be a strong probability and not a possibility. I have no issues with a department choosing exterior attack, either in a particuliar situation or as a general attack philosphy used in most situations. If that, as a department, makes them feel comfortable in thier operations, so be it.

    If that may cause civilains to die in thier response area, so be it. We have an obligation to act to the best of our abilities, and if as a department, they feel that is the limit of thier abilities, they have clearly meet thier obligation to the public they serve.

    That being said, my current department is an aggressive department. In my opinion, we are overly aggressive. In my opinion we should be making less interior attacks and more exterior-only attacks, including a far greater use of the master stream/deck gun. I felt this way about my last department as well. The fact is we often take chances on situations where the outcome has been determined long before our arrival, and there are no actions that we can take to change that outcome. Getting in the way of the outcome is only putting our members at great risk with no real benefit.

    Saving life and property is a nice slogan which makes the public feel all warm and fuzzy. The reality is that it we need to think about our lives first. Always.

  7. #307
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    [QUOTE=pvfd27;1232780]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Poor driver training, both civilian and emergency service, period!
    Possibly.

    Don't we have an obligation as professionals to evalaute the level of probability that this is a fire event v. false trip when determining our response to alarm incidents? We are the professionals, and we should be able to utilize sata and past history when determining the liklihood of an actual fire event.

    The fact is that the vast majority of alarms are false. In addition to that as Lyman pointed out, if it is a fire there will be a call to the FD indicating that in most cases.

    Does the limited possibility of a fire event justify the risk to us, and ythe public of running hot?

  8. #308
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Or justify multiple fatalities as a result of the fire....in a building where false fire alarm activations were very routine.

    (This post not to be interpreted as a slam on the FD involved).

    Do fires happen?

    Should alarm trips be taken lightly?

    No, but IMO responding cold is not discounting the possibility of a fire, but it's simply managing the risk associatted with response.

  9. #309
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    360

    Default

    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1232844]
    Quote Originally Posted by pvfd27 View Post
    Possibly.
    That's it?? Possibly? Way to overlook the obvious. imo, you are choosing a non-response rather than dealing with the true cause. Your assumption that responding to possible false alarms causes FF deaths defies logic. It reminds me of a similar fail when I first joined in '81. An optomitrist stumped for federal regulations that all emergency response vehicles be lime green (no offense H) claiming better visibility. Got news for ya, if you don't drive responsibly, it doesn't matter color vehicle you're in. Same holds for JQ Public.

    As far as a response to an abandoned structure, I guess I'm old school. The first question I want answered is "How does an abandoned building catch fire?" To me, the answer is quite obvious.

  10. #310
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice slam. Well really not.
    Not meant to be a slam. Thanks for understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Much of my experience and training was not acquired through my current department as I had almost 23 years in before relocating here. Much of my opinions about risk v. benefit were formed long before I moved to LA.
    And? What makes you believe your standard of risk v. benefit is how others should make their decisions? It might very well be possible that others like myself have a different standard based upon our superior level of training.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    This department does an excellent job of training it's members. Could there be improvement, yes. But in terms of the effort, staff time and funds used to train members both in-house and through outside training few compare.
    I'm sure you're absolutely correct in that statement. Though I'm sure not in the way you believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact is I am extremly conservative in terms of my firefighting philopsphies. I beleive that risk should be taken only in situations where the resources exist to change the outcome, and that change should be a strong probability and not a possibility. I have no issues with a department choosing exterior attack, either in a particuliar situation or as a general attack philosphy used in most situations. If that, as a department, makes them feel comfortable in thier operations, so be it.
    We were conservative as well. We just did interior attack as a matter of operation and philosophy. Not your fault you were trained to a lower standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If that may cause civilains to die in thier response area, so be it. We have an obligation to act to the best of our abilities, and if as a department, they feel that is the limit of thier abilities, they have clearly meet thier obligation to the public they serve.
    We believed the civilians who put their faith in us deserved better than the cavalier attitude with which you write them off.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That being said, my current department is an aggressive department. In my opinion, we are overly aggressive. In my opinion we should be making less interior attacks and more exterior-only attacks, including a far greater use of the master stream/deck gun. I felt this way about my last department as well. The fact is we often take chances on situations where the outcome has been determined long before our arrival, and there are no actions that we can take to change that outcome. Getting in the way of the outcome is only putting our members at great risk with no real benefit.
    Please tell us what crystal ball you possess that allows you to know the outcome was determined before you arrived.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Saving life and property is a nice slogan which makes the public feel all warm and fuzzy. The reality is that it we need to think about our lives first. Always.
    We believed it was more than a slogan. We believed it was our duty given that we took an oath the day our badges were pinned on us. That's the difference between a professional and a hobby firefighter.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-26-2010 at 09:47 PM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  11. #311
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    Very well put sc. I find it ironic that LA states his department shares his pov yet they make more interior attacks than he would like.

    Apparently they would like to fight fire instead watching the city burn.
    Last edited by tajm611; 12-26-2010 at 04:59 PM.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  12. #312
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,582

    Default

    Posted by LA
    The fact is I am extremly conservative in terms of my firefighting philopsphies.
    Metaphorically speaking... if your "firefighting philosophy" was money, you would make Ebenezer Scrooge look like a philanthropist......
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #313
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1232773]
    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post

    Most hospitals are sprinklered. Same with most hotels and other high risk properties.

    Sprinklers extinguish the fire about 98% of the time. In the departments that I have responded with over the past 30 years, that number is quite valid.

    Vast majority of the alarms re false. Vast majority of fires in sprinklered buildings are extinguished by the sprinklers. The chances of a working fire, without a phone call indicating a fire which allows the department to upgrade the card in a sprinklered building is very slight.

    Justify 3 civilians killed in a apparatus-car MVA during response.

    Again risk v. benefit.

    You see it your way. I see it mine.

    I wish my district would run the majority of thier calls cold. They don't. One day they will have an accident while responding, and that will be a sad day as most of our calls simply do not justify a hot response.

    I wish my past department had a cold response policy for alarms. They didn't, which is why I stopped responding to most alarms as I felt very uncomfortable driving or front-seating a vehicle. It simply isn't worth the risk.
    Taj for LA NOT you;
    FIRE, PERHAPS. But then there's that PESKY smoke which can quickly kill people in a weakened state at a Hospital or nursing home. First units go HOT,I can adjust it from there. I guess you missed your calling if riding in the front seat makes you uncomfortable. If one of MY chauffers makes me uncomfortable, I make it a POINT to get THEIR driving adjusted to MY liking. Alarms go off for a REASON and most of them are Human caused and YES,they go OFF for FIRES! Wouldn't you be much more comfortable selling Amway? It's quite SAFE. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 12-26-2010 at 10:26 PM.

  14. #314
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Posted by LA


    Metaphorically speaking... if your "firefighting philosophy" was money, you would make Ebenezer Scrooge look like a philanthropist......
    Well put.

    Risk is to be taken when there is a reasonable and realistic potential of measurable gain.

    It's foolish to take risks when there in not a realsitic possibility of measurable gain due to factors such as advanced fire conditions, building construction, delayed notification, response time, lack of manpower, water supply issues, training and experience issues as well as other factors.

    I beleive in taking risk when there is something of value to save and those risks are reasonable given resources, training and experience.

  15. #315
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    [QUOTE=Rescue101;1232977]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    FIRE, PERHAPS. But then there's that PESKY smoke which can quickly kill people in a weakened state at a Hospital or nursing home. First units go HOT,I can adjust it from there. I guess you missed your calling if riding in the front seat makes you uncomfortable. If one of MY chauffers makes me uncomfortable, I make it a POINT to get THEIR driving adjusted to MY liking. Alarms go off for a REASON and most of them are Human caused and YES,they go OFF for FIRES! Wouldn't you be much more comfortable selling Amway? It's quite SAFE. T.C.
    Again, you have to look at the percentage of accidental trips v. false alarms. You have to look at the number of times calls were made in addition to the alarm trip in the event of actual fires v. no phone call. You have to look at response times hot v. cold. You have to look at distance from station to building as well as the type of street and typical traffic conditions.

    In some cases hot v. cold the response time differental may be quite slight.

    The fact is apparatus accidents is a significant cause of firefighter fatalities. To say that we always need to respond hot is foolish, especially when we know that slower cold response speeds leads to fewer accidents.

    Again, it's that pesky risk v. benefit.

  16. #316
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Very well put sc. I find it ironic that LA states his department shares his pov yet they make more interior attacks than he would like.

    Apparently they would like to fight fire instead watching the city burn.
    Shares his POV??????

    Yes, they are more aggressive than I would like, especially when the structure is 80% involved and there is little of significant value to save.

  17. #317
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,557

    Default

    [QUOTE=pvfd27;1232861]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    That's it?? Possibly? Way to overlook the obvious. imo, you are choosing a non-response rather than dealing with the true cause. Your assumption that responding to possible false alarms causes FF deaths defies logic. It reminds me of a similar fail when I first joined in '81. An optomitrist stumped for federal regulations that all emergency response vehicles be lime green (no offense H) claiming better visibility. Got news for ya, if you don't drive responsibly, it doesn't matter color vehicle you're in. Same holds for JQ Public.

    As far as a response to an abandoned structure, I guess I'm old school. The first question I want answered is "How does an abandoned building catch fire?" To me, the answer is quite obvious.
    I fully agree that the first step is a driver training program and responsible driving, including speed and intersection management, and the willingness of officers to enforce those practices in the cab, as well as a willingness to bring a driver to further discipline if required.

    We fully agree on that.

    However, driving hot increases the risk, no matter how well trained the appartus driver is a civilians will behave in unpredicatble ways.

    Why not reduce the risk by responding cold to calls with a history that does not require emergency actions such as alarms. MVAs with unknown injuries, smoke investigations, trash fires and the like?

  18. #318
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Shares his POV??????
    Point of View.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  19. #319
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post


    Why not reduce the risk by responding cold to calls with a history that does not require emergency actions such as alarms. MVAs with unknown injuries, smoke investigations, trash fires and the like?
    Mva's with unknown injuries... And you want to run cold?

    Smoke investigations? Are you serious? I've seen my share of barbecue cook outs but I've seen too many structure fires as the cause to write it off. I can't help but feel our towns are fairly alike in demographics and the like but come on. You can't be serious.

    They don't do what you wish, why is that? The have a heart and a genuine care for their fellow citizens? Or is it one of those... "why doesn't anyone see things the way I do? They must ALL be wrong" moments you must get daily.
    Last edited by tajm611; 12-26-2010 at 10:52 PM.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  20. #320
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    [QUOTE=LaFireEducator;1232980]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post

    Again, you have to look at the percentage of accidental trips v. false alarms. You have to look at the number of times calls were made in addition to the alarm trip in the event of actual fires v. no phone call. You have to look at response times hot v. cold. You have to look at distance from station to building as well as the type of street and typical traffic conditions.

    In some cases hot v. cold the response time differental may be quite slight.

    The fact is apparatus accidents is a significant cause of firefighter fatalities. To say that we always need to respond hot is foolish, especially when we know that slower cold response speeds leads to fewer accidents.

    Again, it's that pesky risk v. benefit.
    AGAIN,a HOSPITAL is HIGH RISK! EVERYTIME there is an Alarm or problem there. Don't know about yours but here hospitals and SYSTEMS are very well maintained. Staffing is SELDOM adequate if you have to move A or more than one wing. Where are you getting your Apparatus being SIGNICANT FF fatalities? Heart attacks kill more. Yet you think physicals are too expensive for "volunteer" depts. Guess what? We're "volunteer" and we REQUIRE any interior FF's have a Physical YEARLY. So I guess we assign PRIORITIES a little different. T.C.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. SOP's for Volunteer FD
    By rumlfire in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 10:35 PM
  2. AFFF or FFFP
    By Lallo in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-18-2002, 08:34 PM
  3. The NEW YORK TIMES
    By E40FDNYL35 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-14-2002, 11:06 PM
  4. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 08:41 PM
  5. Thermal Cameras and the like
    By Diane in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-30-1999, 09:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts