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  1. #321
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    SC...

    And? What makes you believe your standard of risk v. benefit is how others should make their decisions? It might very well be possible that others like myself have a different standard based upon our superior level of training
    .

    I would debate a superior level of training with you. I could list my certs and other training, but I won't. Risk v. benefit standard is based on much more than a level of training. It's based on experience and resources. My level of risk varies between my combo gig and volunteer department because the training, experience and resource base varies. There are things that my combo department does that to me are simply not acceptable in my volunteer department, nor would they try it because they are fully aware of thier limits.

    I'm sure you're absolutely correct in that statement. Though I'm sure not in the way you believe.

    Given the same size department with comparbale resources dedicated to training. Our career members generally have the same certs, acquired through classes both pre and post hire within a year, as members of departments who send thier members to the LSU Recruit School or send them through thier own academy. As far as our volunteers, the rating service tells us that thier level of training is one of the highest in the state when compared to similiar departments. Does it compare to larger metro departments? No. But we aren't a large metro department and will never have the resources (or the need) to train to that level.

    We believed the civilians who put their faith in us deserved better than the cavalier attitude with which you write them off.


    I write thewm off, as you put it, only when it's clear that the situation has progressed beyond the resources, skills and experience of the responders. Again, that varies from department to department, and often in a volunteer department, incident to incident as responders vary.

    Please tell us what crystal ball you possess that allows you to know the outcome was determined before you arrived
    .

    If you re-read the post, I never staed that we determined the outcome before we arrived. I stated that factors such as delayed alarms, extended respoonse times, building age, occupant age and water supply often are factors that cause the incident to determine it's own outcome well before we arrive. The fact is that in a rural situation, the fire is often advanced and occupants are often dead well before we arrive, and there is little anyone can do to change that.

    It's simply the reality of rural fire response.

    We believed it was more than a slogan. We believed it was our duty given that we took an oath the day our badges were pinned on us. That's the difference between a professional and a hobby firefighter.

    I don't think any civilian in our fire district expects us to die or be seriously injured solving thier problem. they beleive that we will make our best effort but I am sure they understand that we have the right to go home.


  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Point of View.
    Ok.

    To me POV is a Personally Operated Vehicle.

    And yes, I am far more conservative than the majority of the leadership personal on my career FD.

    That is not the case on my volunteer department where the limits are understood by most if not all.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Mva's with unknown injuries... And you want to run cold?

    Smoke investigations? Are you serious? I've seen my share of barbecue cook outs but I've seen too many structure fires as the cause to write it off. I can't help but feel our towns are fairly alike in demographics and the like but come on. You can't be serious.

    They don't do what you wish, why is that? The have a heart and a genuine care for their fellow citizens? Or is it one of those... "why doesn't anyone see things the way I do? They must ALL be wrong" moments you must get daily.
    Different experiences.

    In my fire career and volunteer fire districts, very few MVAs with unknown injuries turn out to be a significant event. On rare occasions, a serious event will have taken place but almost always dispatch receives addtional calls quite quickly and upgrading the response could easily be done.

    Again, some of this is district dependant.

    As far as some investigations, in my 30 years with 8 different departments, I have ran on very few smoke investigations which turned out to be anything more than cooking issues, burnt ballasts, burnt wires or some other non-emergenct smoke cause. Sure, there may have been 3 or 4 over those years that turned out be be fires, but none of them were serious and all caused localized minor/moderate damage.

    Again, area dependant, but in my experiences with my departments, smoke investigations could be easily handled cold with minimal, if any impact at all on citizen safety and a tremendous increase in firefighter safety.

    As far as why they don't do what I wish, there are several reasons including breaking old ways of doing things. There are departments in some fairly large communties that have adopted partial or all cold responses on many incidents, and honestly, they aren't burning down.

    (They all are seeing significant decreases in accidents and vehicle repair costs however, which just might be a good thing)

  4. #324
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Funny. Our department is on great terms with our outer laying parish departments (90% vol save for a few officers and driver engineers) who face the exact problems you describe with rural fire departments. The only difference with my metro department and the parish's is that they run medical unlike us. And they run hot. Just like to every other EMERGENCY.

    If there's 1% chance that equipment won't work, it is unacceptable, so we check. Every shift. Throughout the shift.
    If there's 1% chance that a firefighter is slacking on a skill, it is unacceptable, so we drill. Every shift. Throughout the shift.
    If there's 1% chance that a driver doesn't know his streets......
    If there's 1% chance that we are too late through laziness, it is unacceptable, so we run hot. You get the idea?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  5. #325
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    [QUOTE=Rescue101;1232989]
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    AGAIN,a HOSPITAL is HIGH RISK! EVERYTIME there is an Alarm or problem there. Don't know about yours but here hospitals and SYSTEMS are very well maintained. Staffing is SELDOM adequate if you have to move A or more than one wing. Where are you getting your Apparatus being SIGNICANT FF fatalities? Heart attacks kill more. Yet you think physicals are too expensive for "volunteer" depts. Guess what? We're "volunteer" and we REQUIRE any interior FF's have a Physical YEARLY. So I guess we assign PRIORITIES a little different. T.C.
    My past fire department covered a rehab hospital and 2 nursing homes, with auto-aid responses to 2 more, so I am fully aware of the issues that go along with hospitals and nursing homes.

    Certainly there are structures that may still demand a hot response, and depending on the response times, building construction and condition, built in protection, staff training as well as other factors, the hospitals and nursing homes in your area may be one of those buildings.

    In the case of my past department, we had a station quite close to all 3 facilities, and a cold response would have made little difference in the response time of the initial or second due engines.

    Apparatus accidents are the second leading cause of death behind cardiac and stroke, so yes, it is a significant cause of firefighter fatalities.

    I have no problems with you requiring physicals.

    I would be curious as to annual cost, or cost per member, and the impact it has had on recruiting and retaining personnel in terms of number of members who fail each year or fail initial physical.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Funny. Our department is on great terms with our outer laying parish departments (90% vol save for a few officers and driver engineers) who face the exact problems you describe with rural fire departments. The only difference with my metro department and the parish's is that they run medical unlike us. And they run hot. Just like to every other EMERGENCY.

    If there's 1% chance that equipment won't work, it is unacceptable, so we check. Every shift. Throughout the shift.
    If there's 1% chance that a firefighter is slacking on a skill, it is unacceptable, so we drill. Every shift. Throughout the shift.
    If there's 1% chance that a driver doesn't know his streets......
    If there's 1% chance that we are too late through laziness, it is unacceptable, so we run hot. You get the idea?
    Again, no idea where you are from so I can't comment on the first part of your post. It does intrigue me that you seem to be from a fully career department and you don't run medical. Seems to me like that would be something that would be a no-brainer.

    As far as checking equipment , we do that.
    As far as training, we do that.
    As far as knowing the streets, that is part of driver training and we drill on it will all the volunteers during the year.

    None of that involves any risk. Running hot does. the fact is in the vast majority of our calls, the 30 seconds to 2 minutes "gained" by running hot makes absolutly no difference in the outcome of the incident. None.

    Certainly policies can be built around occupancies and call types, or situations, where running hot is dicated. But the reality is running hot in the vast majority of our calls is adding risk that simply does not need to be there and does nothing to changing the situation.

  7. #327
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    You have said one thing I agree with. We are professionals. Some us are paid and some of us aren't. We are expected perform to the best of our abilities every time. Be it 8am or 3am. Be it on a calm slow Sunday or after the 3rd burner on a Friday night. We are there. No matter the lack of equipment, manpower, or water, we overcome. It's not to ride around bragging. It's not because its cool, and it's certaintly not for the money. It's because I care for people. It's because I love what I do. Speaking only for myself, it's heartbreaking to see you turn what I love into a service more akin to a businesses, worried about PR and your own ***. Maybe there isn't some one in that vacant building, but how do you know? You can look for signs that MAY tell you but I would rather DO what will tell me for sure. If I lose my life then so be it. My family at home knows I didn't give my life in a vacant structure. I gave my life on the weeks away training. I gave my life the nights spent cutting people out. I gave my life every fire and every call because maybe, just maybe, some ones life depends on me. THEY have a right to go home. I have the privilege of serving them and helping that along. It's not a dinosaur way of thinking as I'm only 23. It's a human way of thinking.

    It is what it is. I know the dangers and I know the rewards. I'll risk everything so save anyone.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  8. #328
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    We disagree.

    That's cool.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, no idea where you are from so I can't comment on the first part of your post. It does intrigue me that you seem to be from a fully career department and you don't run medical. Seems to me like that would be something that would be a no-brainer.
    Why? EMS is outstanding with sub 5 minute response times anywhere in the city. But here's the kicker. We're all trained to at least first responder and keep one-three emt-b to emt-paramedic on every shift. Why? Because ems has been swamped and asked for help. Because mva's require medical assistance. Because if the guy in the bunk next to me goes down, I won't just stand there and say "uhhhhh idk. This never happened before"

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as checking equipment , we do that.
    As far as training, we do that.
    As far as knowing the streets, that is part of driver training and we drill on it will all the volunteers during the year.

    None of that involves any risk. Running hot does. the fact is in the vast majority of our calls, the 30 seconds to 2 minutes "gained" by running hot makes absolutly no difference in the outcome of the incident. None.
    Most Fires double in intensity every 30 seconds. You're looking at anywhere between twice to sixteen times the intensity by running cold to a smoke investigation. By your logic, why run at all? If you do need to rush, why even go? If you won't go, then why even exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Certainly policies can be built around occupancies and call types, or situations, where running hot is dicated. But the reality is running hot in the vast majority of our calls is adding risk that simply does not need to be there and does nothing to changing the situation.
    Again. So if I have a highly sensitive alarm, should I keep some one at watch to call in if it's
    Legit and I'm not home?
    Is that what you tell your citizens? Well no one called and said flames!
    Blame your neighbors!
    We didnt realize your son was at home! Keep a car out front so we know!

    You can't honestly expect people to accept that.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We disagree.

    That's cool.
    What part can you disagree with?
    It's the basis of what you swore to do. You either lied or are confused.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    It's the basis of what you swore to do. You either lied or are confused.
    FWIW, the whole "swore to do" anything argument is moot. "Swearing in" is a local tradition that doesn't exist everywhere and, where it does exist, there's no standard oath.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    FWIW, the whole "swore to do" anything argument is moot. "Swearing in" is a local tradition that doesn't exist everywhere and, where it does exist, there's no standard oath.
    We take no oath unless you are an officer. Then its a signed oath with the municipality.

    Forget the oath argument, just stick with the whole accepted industry practice.

    I've given up debating with LAEd. He just has a twisted way of looking at the fire service. Its a job or a hobby where "showing up" is enough to him.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  13. #333
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    FWIW I am in no way talking about after the academy with my right hand up and and cadre asking me to repeat after them. I'm talking about when I get dressed and put my badge on. I'm talking about all shift and every day in-between. I'm talking about what it means to be a firefighter.


    Feel free to pick straws and add absolutely nothing to what's being talked about.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Forget the oath argument, just stick with the whole accepted industry practice.
    Bingo!

    I've given up debating with LAEd
    The forum's [Ignore] function is your friend...
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I'm talking about what it means to be a firefighter.
    ...and assuming you have the definitive read on exactly what that is for everyone.

    Feel free to pick straws and add absolutely nothing to what's being talked about.
    Feel free to keep making pointless arguments that add nothing but more posts to a dead horse topic.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    ...and assuming you have the definitive read on exactly what that is for everyone.



    Feel free to keep making pointless arguments that add nothing but more posts to a dead horse topic.
    Oh...... So just do the exact thing you're doing? Got it. Thanks. Bye.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Oh...... So just do the exact thing you're doing? Got it. Thanks. Bye.
    Not very bright, are you?

    I tell you what, when I retire you can start trying to catch up with me. When you're as old as I have time in on the job, we'll see if you want to have
    this conversation again.

    Effing kids...

    *plonk*
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Not very bright, are you?

    I tell you what, when I retire you can start trying to catch up with me. When you're as old as I have time in on the job, we'll see if you want to have
    this conversation again.

    Effing kids...

    *plonk*
    You're right. I'm sorry sir. I should have taken the comment you made and pretended it had a point. As for your second one, I'm sorry I didn't disregard your hypocrisy and take it as a life lesson in "I'm right because I've been around longer". As a higher ranking officer I respect your position but respect as a man is earned.

    You messed up. Sorry. No one was talking about a swearing in process. If I worded it that way, my apologies. Your second post was laughable. Again, sorry. Have a good day.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  19. #339
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    My take, FWIW.....

    While I disagree with him in many areas, LAFire is not 100% wrong. Risk vs. gain is something we should all keep in mind at all times. I'm just glad I'm not one of the many likely to be on the the losing end of his risk-gain equation.

    tajm611... You mentioned your age, 23. You will, in time, lose some of that cavalier attitude. I will assume that you're not married nor have children. Time changes us. I used to think like you, then I got married, had kids and now grandkids.
    Or maybe you won't, I dunno...
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I would debate a superior level of training with you. I could list my certs and other training, but I won't. Risk v. benefit standard is based on much more than a level of training. It's based on experience and resources. My level of risk varies between my combo gig and volunteer department because the training, experience and resource base varies. There are things that my combo department does that to me are simply not acceptable in my volunteer department, nor would they try it because they are fully aware of thier limits.
    My level of risk v. benefit is based upon the same factors plus a superior level of training that didn't have to accomodate volunteers who only trained and responded when it was convenient.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Given the same size department with comparbale resources dedicated to training. Our career members generally have the same certs, acquired through classes both pre and post hire within a year, as members of departments who send thier members to the LSU Recruit School or send them through thier own academy. As far as our volunteers, the rating service tells us that thier level of training is one of the highest in the state when compared to similiar departments. Does it compare to larger metro departments? No. But we aren't a large metro department and will never have the resources (or the need) to train to that level.
    Again, I repeat. It wasn't your fault you had to work for a department that trained to an inferior ability. Had you been trained to the same level as a professional department this discussion wouldn't be occurring.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I write thewm off, as you put it, only when it's clear that the situation has progressed beyond the resources, skills and experience of the responders. Again, that varies from department to department, and often in a volunteer department, incident to incident as responders vary.
    We never wrote them off......ever. Since we were professionals we acted and responded to a higher level.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you re-read the post, I never staed that we determined the outcome before we arrived. I stated that factors such as delayed alarms, extended respoonse times, building age, occupant age and water supply often are factors that cause the incident to determine it's own outcome well before we arrive. The fact is that in a rural situation, the fire is often advanced and occupants are often dead well before we arrive, and there is little anyone can do to change that.
    None of which means a thing until one arrives and does their size up.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It's simply the reality of rural fire response.
    One of the primary reasons I don't live in a rural area.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I don't think any civilian in our fire district expects us to die or be seriously injured solving thier problem. they beleive that we will make our best effort but I am sure they understand that we have the right to go home.
    Our best effort was to save them and go home. You seem to only believe in half the equation is adequate. We didn't accept mediocrity. Sorry to hear you're willing to perform at that level.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-27-2010 at 01:53 AM.
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