1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    A building can be empty without the fire department saying so.
    And a building can be occupied after you say it isn't.

    which one will lead to civilian deaths?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Thats because its a dangerous job. If it was simple, fun, and easy then we wouldn't be needed. You've said it yourself, your department has had accidents running hot or cold so face the fact, its dangerous and things will happen no matter how good your department is. Taking away the very core of what we are as an

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    service will lead to bigger problems than your refusal to attack the real problems of your department and try and kill the fire side of the fire service. Go be a cop.
    You seem to beleive in taking maximum risk on every call, dispite the nature of the call.

    Go ahead. be my guest.

    Most of what a fire departm,ent responds to are not an emergency. A fire alarm is not an emergency unless there is a fire, which is rare. A smoke condition is not a fire unless there is an uncontrolled fire rather than burnt ballast. A fully involved car fire sitting away from other cars in a parking lot is really not an emergency. Same with a small brush fire in low-risk conditions.

    Are these "emergencies" that demand the maximum risk?

    I'm a beleiver that the amount of risk we need to take is based on the nature of the emergency. Minimize risk where you can and yes, take maximum risk when the situation dictates.

    A downed power line, trash fire, fire alarm and even a smoke investigation generally does not justify the risk associatted with a hot response. A structure fire, working car fire, brush fire during high-risk conditions or an MVA with possible injuries does.

    If evaluating the risk of each incident and taking actions based on what the incident presents and the liklihood of changing the outcome v. the "traditional" maximum risk approach, simply because of we're the fire department bothers you so much, so be it.

    I really have a hard time beleiving that running cold in likely non-emergenct situations or not operating in, including searching, abondoned structures in a rural area with absolutly no history of occupancy is going to destroy what the fire service stands for. If you feel that way, so be. You'll be the one who may lose a brother in an accident running hot to a dumpster fire or operating in an empty vacant structure, not me.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-03-2011 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    And a building can be occupied after you say it isn't.

    which one will lead to civilian deaths?
    Sorry to tell you, but there are situations where the building is clear without us having to check it to say that's the case.

    To beleive that every building has to eb searched every time, especially when you have relaible information that it is clear, is something that no longer flies with me.

    I once beleived that. But now the risks are simply to great to follow that mantra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Ahh, so the bubble is over your blessed little town.

    Got it... what color is the sky there, anyway?
    Apparently rose colored....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Apparently rose colored....

    We have our problems.

    But squatters and folks living in vacant and abandoned properties isn't one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have our problems.

    But squatters and folks living in vacant and abandoned properties isn't one of them.
    Neither are city buses and snow...but you sure know a lot about them, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Neither are city buses and snow...but you sure know a lot about them, too.
    Feel the pain....
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Ouch -- right in the nose - good one nozz -
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Neither are city buses and snow...but you sure know a lot about them, too.

    Actually I grew up in the north and ran fire in the snow for almost 25 years before moving down here, including central and northern VT for much of that time.

    So anytime you want discuss winter operations, just let me know. I'm sure I have a whole lot more experience than a guy from TN.

    As far as the buses no, but I have dealt with surburban traffic in a couple of different departments, and sometimes you just have to accept the fact that you are not going to get there especially fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    sometimes you just have to accept the fact that you are not going to get there especially fast.
    This wasn't about getting there fast. This was about getting there.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    This wasn't about getting there fast. This was about getting there.
    This was about a company that was delayed because of a winter storm in a city that deals very poorly with snow.

    This was a bout a bus driver who may or not have been able to move, but the picture was so limited I really couldn't tell what his options were.

    This was about posters who felt the the bus driver could have done more, but were not there to get the big picture.

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    I'm really thinking this is ABOUT a Bus driver with Cerebral Rectosis. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually, blah, blah, blah...
    For the love of Mike...just stay down, already!

    Trying to argue over working in snow...you're pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    This was about a company that was delayed because of a winter storm in a city that deals very poorly with snow.

    This was a bout a bus driver who may or not have been able to move, but the picture was so limited I really couldn't tell what his options were.

    This was about posters who felt the the bus driver could have done more, but were not there to get the big picture.

    clueless.......
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    clueless.......
    Really?

    I guess I understand that not everything rotates around the fire department and it's response.

    The bus driver has his responsibilities, both to the riders and the Transit Authority. He has a job to do no different than the guys on that engine, and he has to answer to his bosses if he damages the bus or injures a passenger (and we all know how low the threshold of an "injury" is in a civil court).

    I guess I see both sides of the coin, and that video simply didn't give enough of the big picture to condemn the bus driver.

    Sorry if he got in FDNY's way. Stuff happens. Accept it and move on.

    I never said a damn thing about the firefighters. I really didn't care what actions they took.

    Damn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    For the love of Mike...just stay down, already!

    Trying to argue over working in snow...you're pathetic.
    You're the one that brought it up Sport.

    I think you really need to find a hobby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The bus driver has his responsibilities, both to the riders and the Transit Authority. He has a job to do no different than the guys on that engine, and he has to answer to his bosses if he damages the bus or injures a passenger (and we all know how low the threshold of an "injury" is in a civil court).
    Yea, I noticed that Q siren on the bus.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    I guess I understand that not everything rotates around the fire department and it's response.

    The bus driver has his responsibilities, both to the riders and the Transit Authority. He has a job to do no different than the guys on that engine, and he has to answer to his bosses if he damages the bus or injures a passenger (and we all know how low the threshold of an "injury" is in a civil court).

    I guess I see both sides of the coin, and that video simply didn't give enough of the big picture to condemn the bus driver.

    Sorry if he got in FDNY's way. Stuff happens. Accept it and move on.

    I never said a damn thing about the firefighters. I really didn't care what actions they took.

    Damn.

    lol...you are special.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yea, I noticed that Q siren on the bus.
    So you deny that the driver under the law, probably has a legal responsibility to act in what he considers a prudent manner while yielding? You also deny that he has responsibilities as outlined by the Transit Authority that if he fails to follow could cost him his job?

    This effort to crucify the driver befuddles me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    lol...you are special.
    No, I'm really not but thank you for the compliment.

    Guess I see that there are circumstances that we cannot control or change.

    And often, because of those circumstances people will die that may live.

    And there is nothing we can do about that.

    If crucifying the bus driver makes everyone feel special so be.

    How about we crucify the sanitation union and it's workers who decided to pull a work slowdown during the worse storm of the year. Maybe their role in this whole mess citywide is something that we should be discussing rather than one bus driver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you deny that the driver under the law, probably has a legal responsibility to act in what he considers a prudent manner while yielding? You also deny that he has responsibilities as outlined by the Transit Authority that if he fails to follow could cost him his job?

    This effort to crucify the driver befuddles me.
    The law requires him to move. He didn't.

    You are fabricating all these conditions that excuse the bus driver's not moving. The fact that you are so quick to crap on the firefighters is really no surprise. Shame on you.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    The law requires him to move. He didn't.

    You are fabricating all these conditions that excuse the bus driver's not moving. The fact that you are so quick to crap on the firefighters is really no surprise. Shame on you.
    And exactly where did I "crap on the firefighters" Exactly where did i say one thing about what they did or didn't do. if you can find something, quote it, but you won't, because I haven't said a damn word about any of the firefighters except the speculation about the call type based on the fact that he didn't have an SCBA on his back.

    A driver is legally obliged to yield only if they can do it safely.

    As an example, I pull up behind cars at a intersection on a 4 lane road with a inside turn lane. All 3 lanes are occupied by traffic and the light for all 3 lanes is red. The drivers do not have an obligation to yield to me by pulling into the intersection as that would put their vehicles into an unsafe position.

    As an apparatus driver, my best move would be shut down all sirens, and simply wait for the light to turn, which would allow traffic to move and then would allow the drivers to yield to me in a safe manner.

    It takes patience to do that. Experienced drivers know that sitting behind them running the sirens and horns, and expecting them to move into the intersection, placing themselves in danger is irresponsible. There are times traffic may significantly slow our response. It happens. Calm down, We'll get there when we get there.

    Again, I can't see enough to condemn the bus driver. And I never condemned the engine crew. I simply speculated on the run type using my experiences and SOPs regarding airpack donning in previous departments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And exactly where did I "crap on the firefighters" Exactly where did i say one thing about what they did or didn't do. if you can find something, quote it, but you won't, because I haven't said a damn word about any of the firefighters except the speculation about the call type based on the fact that he didn't have an SCBA on his back.
    You are clearly calling them out. You see in the video that they engage the bus driver ordering him to move, its clear the bus driver refused to move.

    By fabricating excuses for the bus driver and whipping out this BS about snow, or him having some phantom reason to not listen to the FF's is absurd.

    By doing so you are implying they are wrong. Not only that, you imply that perhaps they weren't rushing to a legitimate job, the whole entrapment discussion a few pages back and several layers of your BS ago.

    Gimme a break...

    It takes patience to do that. Experienced drivers know that sitting behind them running the sirens and horns, and expecting them to move into the intersection, placing themselves in danger is irresponsible. There are times traffic may significantly slow our response. It happens. Calm down, We'll get there when we get there.
    That comment is crapping on them... implying that they are irresponsible.

    Do you even read your nonsense??


    Again, I can't see enough to condemn the bus driver. And I never condemned the engine crew. I simply speculated on the run type using my experiences and SOPs regarding airpack donning in previous departments.
    Your speculation is crapping on them.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Default You and crowbar shared that same union play card.

    So generous to give the benefit of the doubt to the mutt bus driver. (who by the way ended up finally moving, as he could have done the entire time, as the clear path in front of him never really changed).

    But lightning quick to assume foul of the "union" for the snow debacle. You talk about needing the facts first. Why so decisive with this one?

    Fairness is not a two way street with you. The hypocrisy continues to runneth over.

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    Default I rarely name-call, but.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    You are clearly calling them out. You see in the video that they engage the bus driver ordering him to move, its clear the bus driver refused to move.

    By fabricating excuses for the bus driver and whipping out this BS about snow, or him having some phantom reason to not listen to the FF's is absurd.

    By doing so you are implying they are wrong. Not only that, you imply that perhaps they weren't rushing to a legitimate job, the whole entrapment discussion a few pages back and several layers of your BS ago.

    Gimme a break...



    That comment is crapping on them... implying that they are irresponsible.

    Do you even read your nonsense??




    Your speculation is crapping on them.
    one word is appropriate: MUTT

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