Conflict in Combination Department

First off, I want to say BY NO MEANS am i bashing volunteers, because up until a few month a was one, and i still consider myself one, but that is for latter.

I am a Career Firefighter for a Combination fire department in texas, We have a duty crew of around 6 part time guys and 2 full time on 3 man shifts (Days 8-5) and around TOTAL of 20 volunteer ff's(10 Active) including the 7 volunteer officers. I am 20 yrs old and fresh out of the academy ... all things were fine until i got out of the academy and started working at The same department i volunteer for as a DUTY CREW FIREFIGHTER. I have realized that this was a bad Idea.

We have had a 3 man duty crew on days (8-5) for 5 years, and Our board of commissioners have recently been talking about putting a night crew on as well.

Our department has 1 career fire chief, 2 Asst. Volunteer Chiefs, 2 Career captains, 2 volunteer captains, and 3 volunteer Lieutenants. Duty Crew Firefighters, and Volunteer Firefighters.

I am the only Paid guy that also runs calls at night as volunteer. The volunteer command structure is

Career Chief
Ast. Chiefs
Captains
Lieutenants
Firefighters

I was told by my Career Captain that ALL Duty Crew members Outrank ALL Volunteer officers, that is why all duty crew wear red helmets just as captains.

(In texas the TCFP is the cert agency for Career FF's u must complete the 600+ hr academy before testing and have completed ur EMT-B Course, none of our volunteers hold a commission cert. all duty crew members do.)

I was ORDERED by a volunteer LT. on a fire scene to do something i felt was UNSAFE, and asked if we could discuss it and and was told that was the proper course of action. I refused as i believed it was a LIFE SAFETY issue and was later reprimanded by the Volunteer Assistant Chief for refusing to do it.

The Chain of command is kinda sketchy...

Was told by the volunteer chief that,

I report to the Volunteer officers all of the time even while on shift, along with career officers BUT ONLY ME, not the other career ff's just me, becasue i volunteer too. like this

ME

Car. Chief 1
Vol. Asst. Chief 2&3
Car. Capt. 1&2
Vol. Capt. 3&4
Vol. LT.
ME (Duty Crew FF)
Vol. FF

Duty Crew Chain of command (SOP)

Car. Chief 1
Car. Capt. 1 & 2
Car. Firefighter
Vol. Chief 2 & 3
Vol. Capt. 3&4
Vol. LT.
Vol. FF

I have decided that i might stop volunteering for the agency and go career only. But fear that I might loose my job over it.

Does anyone else around the country have these kind of problems...

and as i said I AM NOT VOLUNTEER BASHING !!!

Thanks:)

So, if I am reading this correctly, you volunteer for the same department you work for?

Sounds like the whole place is jacked up and there are too many officers. You shouldn't volunteer where you work. Certainly there is a neighboring department where you can volunteer.

What is your job title while working and what is your job title while volunteering?

Combo department here where an officer is an officer regardless of pay status.

Chief - Volunteer
Deputy Chief- Career
Asst Chief- Volunteer
8 Captains - 3 Career Shift Captains, remainder Volunteer
Senior Firefighters (Act as Lts) - All volunteer except myself

We keep it simply.

The chief outranks everyone. The DC outranks everyone except the chief. The volunteer Asst. Chief outranks all the Captains, including the paid ones.

It's really very simple here.


I was ORDERED by a volunteer LT. on a fire scene to do something i felt was UNSAFE, and asked if we could discuss it and and was told that was the proper course of action. I refused as i believed it was a LIFE SAFETY issue and was later reprimanded by the Volunteer Assistant Chief for refusing to do it

You have that right irregardless of your of his rank or pay status.

Does anyone else around the country have these kind of problems..

We don't. Sounds like a bad situation.

As far as volunteering, all 5 of our paid staff makes runs as volunteers.

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Originally Posted by beyoung90

I have decided that i might stop volunteering for the agency and go career only. But fear that I might loose my job over it.

Does anyone else around the country have these kind of problems...

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If I am not mistaken once you are a full time employee, under federal labor law, you cannot work without being paid. This was put in place to avoid employers from forcing the employee from working without being paid. I will try and locate the statue.
If you have a county attorney you may want to consult him.

Here is some light reading on the subject.. FLSA Ruling

P.S. If they terminate you after bring this to their attention you could have a wrongful termination suit. If you are going to pursue this you may want to consult a labor attorney.

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Originally Posted by Acklan

If I am not mistaken once you are a full time employee, under federal labor law, you cannot work without being paid. This was put in place to avoid employers from forcing the employee from working without being paid. I will try and locate the statue.
If you have a county attorney you may want to consult him.

Here is some light reading on the subject.. FLSA Ruling

P.S. If they terminate you after bring this to their attention you could have a wrongful termination suit. If you are going to pursue this you may want to consult a labor attorney.

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If you are a paid employee, you are not allowed to volunteer to do the same job for the same employer. It's illegal and can get your employer in a world of poo.

If you are doing ANYTHING for the department, you need to be on the clock. That's not only to protect you, but to protect them. That is true of any other paid staff the department may have, as well.

If you want to volunteer, find another department to do it at.

I work for a combo as well. Here is our pecking order.

Chief
Dept Chief
Asst Chief (operations)
Asst Chief (training)
Shift Capt
Vol Lt
Engineers
Vollies

On a scene the IC is in charge, it may very well be a shift Captian, giving orders to a Chief. It can also be the Vol Lt as IC or it could be a vollie that was first on the scene and established command (and is left in command by a Capt or a Chief officer that is on the scene).

Now for day to day operations, if the Vol Lt needs something done by the career staff he requests it from the shift Capt or through the ops office. They in turn tell him if and when it will be done. The Lt does not give orders to us on day to day operations.

As for the saftey question. ANYONE can inform the IC of anything that they see as unsafe or feel will be unsafe. The IC will then look at what is being addressed to them and make changes as needed.

Now for the can of worms. According to FLSA you cannot be an employee and volunteer for the same department. When you cross into the paid world it changes alot of things. Many people and departments do what you are doing and many do not. For our department if we are called in or respond to a call that is on the "you can come without being invited list", we are on the clock.

During the day, I report to the DC, as I am classified as administration, not line.

The DC delegates tasks to the career Shift Captain, who manages the part-time daytime firefighter and any volunteers doing rideout time.

In the event of a call, the DC is IC if he rolls, which is generally only for serious MVAs and fires. Otherwise, the career Shift Captain is IC unless the volunteer AC rolls. In that case, he is in charge.

At a scene, I report to the shift captain.

Many departments work around the FLSA by hiring the day crew as "janitors" or "house men". They have non firefighting duties such as cleaning and general maintenance while on the clock but are permitted to "volunteer" with the department and respond to all runs. I know many department around Philly due this. Im not exactly sure how their titles and job duties are worded but this is the jist.

I am not a fan of any rank structure where a lower ranking member out ranks a higher ranking member based on pay status. If they are qualified to hold that rank, it shouldnt matter they pay status.

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Originally Posted by Send in the Hook

Many departments work around the FLSA by hiring the day crew as "janitors" or "house men". They have non firefighting duties such as cleaning and general maintenance while on the clock but are permitted to "volunteer" with the department and respond to all runs. I know many department around Philly due this. Im not exactly sure how their titles and job duties are worded but this is the jist.

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I am a engineer. That includes but not limited to....

Janitor.
Truck detail tec.
Lawn care tec.
Truck repairman.
Building mait.
Ect, ect, ect.

Somewhere way down this list I am an engineer. I love my job and won't trade it for anything in the world. :D:D:D

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Originally Posted by Send in the Hook

Many departments work around the FLSA by hiring the day crew as "janitors" or "house men". They have non firefighting duties such as cleaning and general maintenance while on the clock but are permitted to "volunteer" with the department and respond to all runs. I know many department around Philly due this. Im not exactly sure how their titles and job duties are worded but this is the jist.

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Until someone decides to push it...

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Originally Posted by Catch22

Until someone decides to push it...

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Most are probably thrilled to have a "paid" ff job.

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I am not a fan of any rank structure where a lower ranking member out ranks a higher ranking member based on pay status. If they are qualified to hold that rank, it shouldnt matter they pay status.

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I agree one hundred percent, we have some VERY Knowladgeable people in our department, but most of them arent officers most of our volunteers are put into office by the "Good Ole Boy" System and such. One of our LT.'s (The one in question) has no certs, acept for NIMS Is-200,700 and 1 year of volunteer experience. Our ESD Board just approved to put LT's into our command structure, but advised the Volunteer chief pushing for i they did not agree and would see how it turned out. ...

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Originally Posted by beyoung90

I am 20 yrs old and fresh out of the academy ...

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Just hired and 20 Y/o. and you’re already whining about the chain of command:eek: :eek:

After you’ve been around a few years then work to change things but in the meantime just do the job. If you can’t do that I’m sure you can find another career firefighting position. So many to choose from right now.

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Originally Posted by confire

Just hired and 20 Y/o. and you’re already whining about the chain of command:eek: :eek:

After you’ve been around a few years then work to change things but in the meantime just do the job. If you can’t do that I’m sure you can find another career firefighting position. So many to choose from right now.

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... And you are Completely and without a doubt RIGHT !!! I am young, and as an instructor one said "How Big is your Box ...?" Well mine is still small, Like a shoe box you could say, but enough about boxes... I was just pointing out a flaw in the combination department and seeing how other departments handle conflits of this nature ...:):D But as im 20 and hold a TCFP and have the hours to show I've been through and earned a certification, our Vol. LT.'s are 18yo, 19yo, and 19yo with no certs except for one, with his ECA (NREMT-FR)

I've worked fulltime for a combination FD for 15 years. In our dept. rank is rank. This has caused minor turmoil for as long as I've been there. We have Vol. Capt's that out rank FT Lt's and Vol. Lt's that outrank FT firefighters. The issue is that career officers must pass significant testing to attain rank, while in the past, the vol. officers were appointed after an interview process.

For the most part, the volunteer officers in our dept. defer to the career personnel. This works well, except that we have to warn the vol. officers that they are still "responsible" as their rank indicates.

I think the easy answer is look in your SOP/SOG manual and find the organizational chart with the structure and where you fit in. Of course if it was that easy, you'd probably have done this. Next best thing, try to go to the top. Nothing like hearing the Chief put down the final word, and try and gingerly tell him that maybe the whole FD needs to hear this, regardless of what they want. It cannot be both ways, and a good leader will make sure everyone knows their place.

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Originally Posted by RFDACM02

I've worked fulltime for a combination FD for 15 years. In our dept. rank is rank. This has caused minor turmoil for as long as I've been there. We have Vol. Capt's that out rank FT Lt's and Vol. Lt's that outrank FT firefighters. The issue is that career officers must pass significant testing to attain rank, while in the past, the vol. officers were appointed after an interview process.

For the most part, the volunteer officers in our dept. defer to the career personnel. This works well, except that we have to warn the vol. officers that they are still "responsible" as their rank indicates.

I think the easy answer is look in your SOP/SOG manual and find the organizational chart with the structure and where you fit in. Of course if it was that easy, you'd probably have done this. Next best thing, try to go to the top. Nothing like hearing the Chief put down the final word, and try and gingerly tell him that maybe the whole FD needs to hear this, regardless of what they want. It cannot be both ways, and a good leader will make sure everyone knows their place.

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You would be correct In our SOG, it only says that duty crew personel report to the district board, and are the "Designated agents of the Emergency Servies District." On going to the chief, im trying to "Follow the proper chain of command " on the volunteer side as to not step on anybodys toes, so ive gone through an LT, a Capt, and am talking to a chief in a little while.

Thanks for the help and insight guys :)

I'd advise against going to the Chief. In my department that would be an instant reprimand. If your direct supervisor won't address your issues, tell him as much and ask what you should do next.

If I were in this situation, I'd keep my mouth shut and do my job.

Of course, if given an unnecessary, unsafe assignment, you MUST have the ability to refuse. Give your reasons and let the chips fall where they may. In my department, we have a culture that supports this and nobody will ever be called to the carpet for it, provided they follow the correct procedure.