Booster tank size

[Ambrose33]

My suburban town we have a fire hydrant every 500 feet with a static pressure of 150+(yes that is no exageration) We do have one section of town where 4 houses are about 1 mile to closest hydrant. I have 2 Engines with 500 gallon tank at 1250 and 1500 gallons per minute and 2 with 750 gallon tanks at 2000 gallon per minute. For us that is all we need and that 750 gallons puts out alot of fire.

A rural town with no hydrants 1000+ gallon tanks are probably preferred. But if you were to tell me how to set up a tanker operation I would look at you cross eyed lol

[CAL5330]

Thanks for all the replies. I should of mentioned more about our district. It's a little over 2 square miles with a population just above 5,000 with mixed residential and commercial buildings. We average a little more then 100 calls a year,with maybe 2 or 3 being multiple-alarms.We have a quint that is 1500GPM with 300 gallons,a 1500GPM pumper with 1,000 gallons,and another 1500GPM pumper with 750 gallons. The pumper with the 750 gallon tank is due to be replaced soon,and some guys want to match the other pumper's tank size. We had speced out a top mount pumper with 1,000 gallon tank and the wheelbase was 50" longer then our current truck,along with a high hose bed ,so I'm hoping a smaller tank would shorten the wheelbase and lower the hose bed height. Our hydrants are spaced about ever 600 - 800 feet apart with 80-100 psi static pressure.There are 2 roads with no hydrants but sit right on a large creek to draft from. When we run mutual aid in a neighboring district we run with a 2,500 gallon tanker when we cover for them. I had also mentioned something about looking into CAFS and that did not go over too well.

[kd7fds]

Wow, except for the Tender, you almost exactly described my community and truck mix.

We are specing out a new engine too. We are leaning strongly towards the 750 gal size. The 1000 gallon engine is too tall, and the hosebed is too small.

[RFDACM02]

The 1000 gallon engine is too tall, and the hosebed is too small.

There are clearly other spec factors that are causing this. I'm sure you can get a low truck with a huge hosebed, as long as you have double depth bays!

[FIREMECH1]

....and another 1500GPM pumper with 750 gallons. The pumper with the 750 gallon tank is due to be replaced soon,and some guys want to match the other pumper's tank size. We had speced out a top mount pumper with 1,000 gallon tank and the wheelbase was 50" longer then our current truck,along with a high hose bed ,so I'm hoping a smaller tank would shorten the wheelbase and lower the hose bed height.

Honestly, with what you posted for your fire coverage, a 1,000g tank rig isn't really necessary.

I'm assuming your current 750g rig you're replacing has a side mount pump, if so, then that will cut off that 4 feet in extra length, and maintain a low hose bed if you spec it the same. If not, then it would be something to look into.

If the guys that want the 1,000g tank rig want it so they don't empty the tank so fast, then why not look into a 1,250gpm 2 stage pump with a 750g tank??? This would be a very good trade off for what you posted for your operations, and would also cost less. Just an idea to throw out there, as you do have several options.

FM1

[CAL5330]

Wow, except for the Tender, you almost exactly described my community and truck mix.

We are specing out a new engine too. We are leaning strongly towards the 750 gal size. The 1000 gallon engine is too tall, and the hosebed is too small.

Sorry, I should of mentioned the tanker is not ours. It's from another district that's automatically dispatched with us when we run mutual aid.

[CAL5330]

Honestly, with what you posted for your fire coverage, a 1,000g tank rig isn't really necessary.

I'm assuming your current 750g rig you're replacing has a side mount pump, if so, then that will cut off that 4 feet in extra length, and maintain a low hose bed if you spec it the same. If not, then it would be something to look into.

If the guys that want the 1,000g tank rig want it so they don't empty the tank so fast, then why not look into a 1,250gpm 2 stage pump with a 750g tank??? This would be a very good trade off for what you posted for your operations, and would also cost less. Just an idea to throw out there, as you do have several options.

FM1

Actually our current truck is a top mount pump. Some of the extra length is coming from a larger enclosed cab,and bigger pump module as well as the body. I think they'd like to stay with a single stage pump to keep things as simple as possible.

[RFDACM02]

If the guys that want the 1,000g tank rig want it so they don't empty the tank so fast, then why not look into a 1,250gpm 2 stage pump with a 750g tank??? This would be a very good trade off for what you posted for your operations, and would also cost less. Just an idea to throw out there, as you do have several options.

FM1

You lost me there. I assume that like most of us, the concern of losing water has very little to do with pump capacity, and more to do with running out while using one or two small lines on the interior. If your only flowing 300-400 gpm, the pump should be irrelevant. I'm not even going to confuse it with CAFs or other supposed foam logic.

If the engine deploys one 1.75" line to start hitting the fire they have about 5 minutes to get some more water to that line if it flows constantly. No big deal in a staffed FD with hydrants well spaced, but not nearly as easy in many places. Of course rarely we flow nonstop so we can stretch a tank pretty well by just holding the fire in check while search takes places and an effective water supply is developed. The more water we have, the longer we can take to get the second source, hence your FD may vary greatly from others.

[FIREMECH1]

You lost me there. I assume that like most of us, the concern of losing water has very little to do with pump capacity, and more to do with running out while using one or two small lines on the interior. If your only flowing 300-400 gpm, the pump should be irrelevant. I'm not even going to confuse it with CAFs or other supposed foam logic.

NOTE to self: If ya don't know what you're talking about, shut up.

FM1

[FFWALT]

Our engines are 600 gallons which has worked well for us.

Regarding the length and hose bed height. The top mount will add about 5' to the apparatus depending upon how it's done. This can partially be offset by a custom chassis if you were looking at commercial but you only gain about 2' with a custom.

What kind of compartments are you looking at? The rescue style are great but they narrow the tank which raises the height because you can't change the laws of physics. Same goes goes for ladders through the tank. That displaces water and will raise the tank height. A cascade system will raise it was well.

Do you run your own tanker or is the mutual aid one it? Since you have what sounds like an adequate supply of hydrants I'd suggest 600 gallons and 1,500 of LDH.

Just my thoughts.

[jrkrace]

The priority list seems a little vague. Need more info as to whether the truck services the e-ways or does it go up driveways at a house. Average size of drives, etc. Where the truck services is key to determining size, determine pump setup, which will determine tank size.

If this truck goes up long driveways, it's gotta be short. Do you sacrifice top mount panel for size of tank? Does the truck hit a peg before it hits the house or does it get relayed to? How many trucks roll on a given hit?

Sorry for all the questions, but it helps...

Volly or Paid? Big houses or small on average?

[CAL5330]

The priority list seems a little vague. Need more info as to whether the truck services the e-ways or does it go up driveways at a house. Average size of drives, etc. Where the truck services is key to determining size, determine pump setup, which will determine tank size.

If this truck goes up long driveways, it's gotta be short. Do you sacrifice top mount panel for size of tank? Does the truck hit a peg before it hits the house or does it get relayed to? How many trucks roll on a given hit?

Sorry for all the questions, but it helps...

Volly or Paid? Big houses or small on average?

99% of the building in our district are either at the sidewalk line or within 35' of the street so no driveways and no expressways. Volunteer department with 2 engines and a quint,so you never know if all 3 are gonna get out right away. As far as hitting a hydrant it all depends on the situation,what trucks are on the road,what time of day and day of the week. Also I'd say 80% of our calls the truck is sitting on the side of the road at an idle.

[jrkrace]

99% of the building in our district are either at the sidewalk line or within 35' of the street so no driveways and no expressways. Volunteer department with 2 engines and a quint,so you never know if all 3 are gonna get out right away. As far as hitting a hydrant it all depends on the situation,what trucks are on the road,what time of day and day of the week. Also I'd say 80% of our calls the truck is sitting on the side of the road at an idle.

In that case, I would spec a 1000 gal tank and a traditional side mount pump panel. IMO, I think the top mounts take up too much space for their worth. If the truck is not going up narrow and long drives, the size of the truck can be a little bigger to meet your needs. I would, instead, use the space of the top mount panel for gensets, or a lower hosebed. You'll like the 1000 gallons as well, when/if you have a car fire with no pegs around. It'll also help if backup doesn't come right away.

I speced out our first due that was going up long drives and was to be backed up by a 3000k tanker when there were no pegs around. I speced a 1500gpm pump/CAFS/750g water tank. Using the CAFS really made the 750 tank go a long way in case of any problems and it made the truck shorter for the narrow and long drives we frequently go up.

[CAL5330]

In that case, I would spec a 1000 gal tank and a traditional side mount pump panel. IMO, I think the top mounts take up too much space for their worth. If the truck is not going up narrow and long drives, the size of the truck can be a little bigger to meet your needs. I would, instead, use the space of the top mount panel for gensets, or a lower hosebed. You'll like the 1000 gallons as well, when/if you have a car fire with no pegs around. It'll also help if backup doesn't come right away.

I speced out our first due that was going up long drives and was to be backed up by a 3000k tanker when there were no pegs around. I speced a 1500gpm pump/CAFS/750g water tank. Using the CAFS really made the 750 tank go a long way in case of any problems and it made the truck shorter for the narrow and long drives we frequently go up.

We'd never go back to a side mount after having a top mount,you're only talking about adding 18-24" for a walkway.I know there seems to be a lot of climbing up and down off the truck with a top mount,but you get a 360* view of the scene,with a side mount the fire always seems to be on the other side. I'm really leaning towards 500 gallons over the 750 or 1,000. I don't mean to sound like a *****,but if you need 1,000 gallons to put out a car fire maybe there needs to be some more training.

[Opinionated]

We'd never go back to a side mount after having a top mount,you're only talking about adding 18-24" for a walkway.I know there seems to be a lot of climbing up and down off the truck with a top mount,but you get a 360* view of the scene,with a side mount the fire always seems to be on the other side. I'm really leaning towards 500 gallons over the 750 or 1,000. I don't mean to sound like a *****,but if you need 1,000 gallons to put out a car fire maybe there needs to be some more training.

Coming from a 400GWT quint that runs first due on a good amounts of structure runs... if you can't handle room and contents fires with 400 or 500 gallons, then there needs to be more training.

Water tank size for a structural pumper should be immediately dependant upon the engine company's ability to establish a constant water supply. If you have hydrants, drop the cotton (or plastic fake hose ) and lay in and secure YOUR water supply, then it won't matter what size tank you have. If you don't have hydrants, then go with the biggest you can get, yet still be able to pilot the rig around the town, and get a tanker behind you quick.

[jrkrace]

We'd never go back to a side mount after having a top mount,you're only talking about adding 18-24" for a walkway.I know there seems to be a lot of climbing up and down off the truck with a top mount,but you get a 360* view of the scene,with a side mount the fire always seems to be on the other side. I'm really leaning towards 500 gallons over the 750 or 1,000. I don't mean to sound like heck, a *****,but if you need 1,000 gallons to put out a car fire maybe there needs to be some more training.

Seems like you want to get away with the minimum amount of water possible. If that's the case, go with the 500.

As far as training goes, we're all set, thanks. We have never used more than 500 gallons of water for any car fire unless it was on the highway for foaming down tankers. But what do I know...

Good Luck..

[Rescue101]

Ok I hope I dont **** anyone off but here it goes... 750gal is all you need, I have worked both paid city and rural voli since 1988. Training, training, training... If you use over 1000gal on attack what have you saved? 4 walls to me is not a save, if its that far gone I wish we could let it burn. Just ask the home owner that has to pay $$$ to remove the burned left overs. I have never needed more than 1 engine for a car fire, now the semi's were different! Now that I have the blood boiling, it depends on your staffing and SOP's. If you run out of water often, get a 2000gal pumper/tanker. If you never run out of water, stick with what you run today.

Try a Caravan full of old computer cases. I GUARANTEE you will use OVER 1000 gals.Train all you want but it still takes X amout of agent per btu. and that is a LOT of btu's. We don't buy anything less than a 1000,with the Ladder being an exception(300gal).And foam on most of the primaries. Lots of BIG structures in rural settings.what you have is what you bring with you. T.C.

[Tnpipeman]

500 gal. with a cafs system and you will be good to go...