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    Default For those fans of criminal prosecution of international terrorists...

    If you believe international terrorists should be prosecuted criminally, this is for you...

    Officials Describe Arrest of Christmas Day Bomber for First Time
    Sunday , January 24, 2010



    ADVERTISEMENTWASHINGTON —

    Badly burned and bleeding, the suspect in the Christmas Day flight to Detroit tried one last gambit as he was led away: He claimed there was another bomb hidden on the plane he'd just tried to destroy, officials said.

    There was no second bomb, federal agents learned after a tense search. But the Nigerian suspect's threat began hours of conversations that are now the subject of a fierce political debate over the right way to handle terrorism suspects.

    In interviews with The Associated Press, U.S. officials described for the first time the details of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab's arrest Dec. 25 at Detroit Metro Airport.

    Captured after a bomb hidden in his underwear ignited but failed to explode, Abdulmutallab spoke freely and provided valuable intelligence, officials said. Federal agents repeatedly interviewed him or heard him speak to others. But when they read him his legal rights nearly 10 hours after the incident, he went silent.


    Since the attempted bombing, several prominent lawmakers have argued he should have been placed immediately in military custody, and the nation's top intelligence official said he should have been questioned by a special group of terror investigators, rather than the FBI agents who responded to the scene.

    The officials who spoke to The AP said on-scene investigators never discussed turning the suspect over to military authorities. And their accounts show that as the hours passed, the FBI turned to its own expert counterterror interrogators and made no effort to involve the special unit, because it was not yet up and running.

    The officials provided an account of the law enforcement response to the holiday bombing on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to disclose details of the investigation.

    Here is what officials say happened:

    Shortly after noon on Christmas, federal agents were notified that Northwest Airlines flight 253 had arrived at the Detroit airport from Amsterdam, with a passenger who had lit an explosive device on the aircraft.

    After being restrained and stripped bare by fellow passengers and crew, Abdulmutallab was handed over to Customs and Border Protection officers and local police.

    The officers decided the suspect needed immediate medical attention, and an ambulance crew took him to the burn unit at the University of Michigan Medical Center.

    Along the way, Abdulmutallab repeatedly made incriminating statements to the CBP officers guarding him. He told them he had acted alone on the plane and had been trying to take down the aircraft.

    Abdulmutallab arrived at the hospital just before 2 p.m. Still under guard, Abdulmutallab told a doctor treating him that he had tried to trigger the explosive. The Nigerian said it didn't cause a blast, but instead began popping and ignited a fire on his groin and legs.

    FBI agents from the Detroit bureau arrived at the hospital around 2:15 p.m., and were briefed by the Customs agents and officers as Abdulmutallab received medical treatment.

    Shortly after 3:30 p.m., FBI agents began interviewing the suspect in his hospital room, joined by a CBP officer and an Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent.

    The suspect spoke openly, said one official, talking in detail about what he'd done and the planning that went into the attack. Other counterterrorism officials speaking on condition of anonymity said it was during this questioning that he admitted he had been trained and instructed in the plot by Al Qaeda operatives in Yemen.

    The interview lasted about 50 minutes. Before they began questioning Abdulmutallab, the FBI agents decided not to give him his Miranda warnings providing his right to remain silent.

    While the Miranda warning — based on a 1966 Supreme Court ruling — is a bedrock principle of the U.S. justice system and a staple of television cop shows, there is a major exception which could apply in Abdulmutallab's case.

    Investigators are allowed to question a suspect without providing a Miranda warning if they are trying to end a threat to public safety.

    In a future trial in a federal court, prosecutors would likely justify Abdulmutallab's questioning without a Miranda warning by arguing that the FBI agents needed to know quickly if there were other planes with other bombs headed for the United States. The 9/11 attacks and other past plots have shown Al Qaeda's penchant for synchronized attacks in multiple locations.

    Since the incident, Republican lawmakers have argued that the Obama administration mishandled the case by not considering putting Abdulmutallab in military custody — part of a larger political argument about whether terror suspects should face military or civilian justice.

    "Those who now argue that a different action should have been taken in this case were notably silent when dozens of terrorists were successfully prosecuted in federal court by the previous administration," Justice Department spokesman Matthew Miller said earlier this week.

    Abdulmutallab's interview ended when the suspect was given medication and the investigators decided it would be better to let the effects of the drugs wear off before pressing him further. The suspect went into surgery — counterterrorism officials went into overdrive tightening airline security and chasing leads.

    He would not be questioned again for more than five hours. By that point, officials said, FBI bosses in Washington had decided a new interrogation team was needed. They made that move in case the lack of a Miranda warning or the suspect's medical condition at the time of the earlier conversations posed legal problems later on for prosecutors.

    There was no effort to call in the elite federal High-Value Interrogation Group, a special unit of terror specialists that the Obama administration said early last year it would create to deal with terror suspects captured abroad.

    Last week, Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair said the unit should have been called in after Abdulmutallab's arrest. But even if federal officials wanted to expand its use to domestic cases, the special team was not ready for action, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Congress last week.

    Based on the instructions from Washington, the second interview was conducted by different FBI agents and others with the local joint terrorism task force.

    Such a move is not unusual in cases where investigators or prosecutors want to protect themselves from challenges to evidence or statements.

    By bringing in a so-called "clean team" of investigators to talk to the suspect, federal officials aimed to ensure that Abdulmutallab's statements would still be admissible if the failure to give him his Miranda warning led a judge to rule out the use of his first admissions.

    Even if Abdulmutallab's statements are ruled out as evidence, they still provided valuable intelligence for U.S. counterterrorism officials to pursue, officials said.

    In the end, though, the "clean team" of interrogators did not prod more revelations from the suspect.

    Having rested and received more extensive medical treatment, Abdulmutallab was told of his right to remain silent and right to have an attorney.

    He remained silent.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Yeesh... not entirely sure where to start with this.

    At least he failed, and that ******* got burned up a bit.

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    Default Sort of related ....

    http://www.timescolonist.com/news/La...273/story.html

    Bin Laden claims U.S. plane attack, vows more
    By Tamara Walid, Reuters
    January 24, 2010 5:14 AM
    StoryPhotos ( 1 )
    An aircraft flies pass the sun during a solar eclipse in New Delhi in this July 22, 2009 file photo. A purported audio tape of Osama bin Laden aired on Al-Jazeera television claimed responsibility for a Dec. 25 attempted bombing of a U.S.-bound plane, and the al Qaida leader vowed to continue attacks on the United States.
    Photograph by: File, AFP

    DUBAI, Jan 24 (Reuters) - Osama bin Laden claimed responsibility for the Dec. 25 failed bombing of a U.S.-bound plane and promised more attacks on the United States, in an audio tape Al Jazeera said on Sunday was of the Al Qaeda leader.

    Bin Laden, speaking days ahead of major international meetings on how to deal with militancy in Afghanistan and Yemen, said the attempt to blow up the plane as it neared Detroit was a continuation of al Qaeda policy since Sept. 11, 2001.

    "The message sent to you with the attempt by the hero Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab is a confirmation of our previous message conveyed by the heroes of Sept. 11," bin Laden said on the tape in a message addressed "from Osama to (U.S. President Barack) Obama".

    "If it was possible to carry our messages to you by words, we wouldn’t have carried them to you by planes," bin Laden said.

    The botched Christmas Day attack, claimed last month by the Yemen-based regional wing of al Qaeda, and subsequent threats in Yemen sparked global pressure for a crackdown, prompting Sanaa to declare open war on the militant group within its territory.

    Defence and counterterrorism officials say Washington has been quietly supplying military equipment, intelligence and training to Yemen to destroy suspected al Qaeda hide-outs.

    Yemen, since the plane bomb attempt, has launched a series of air strikes targeting al Qaeda leaders and has declared that some top regional leaders including Qasim al-Raymi and Ayed al-Shabwani have been killed.

    Al Qaeda denies the deaths, and Yemen has subsequently launched further attacks on the rural home of Shabwani and given no clues as to the result.

    On Sunday’s tape, bin Laden cited Washington’s support for Israel as a motivator for more attacks on the United States, and vowed to keep on as long as Palestinians cannot live in peace.

    "Our attacks against you will continue as long as U.S. support for Israel continues," he said. "It is not fair that Americans should live in peace as long as our brothers in Gaza live in the worst conditions."


    SOLDIERS KILLED IN YEMEN

    Britain, ahead of the meetings on Afghanistan and Yemen Wednesday and Thursday in London, raised its terrorism threat level to ’severe’ — the second highest level — on Friday.

    The decision to raise the level from ’substantial’ means security services now consider an attack in Britain, a key U.S. ally, to be "highly likely". But the government said it had no information to suggest an attack was imminent.

    Yemen, with its reputation as an al Qaeda haven, attracted closer scrutiny after crackdowns on the group in Pakistan and Afghanistan raised fears the country was becoming a prime training and recruiting centre for militants.

    The high profile meetings on Afghanistan and Yemen are aimed at galvanising efforts to stabilise both nations and stop al Qaeda from using either as a base.

    The Afghanistan meeting on Thursday is meant to chart a path for the country to take greater responsibility for its security. Britain says the meeting also will look at how Afghanistan’s neighbours could work together to help stabilise it.

    On Wednesday, foreign ministers of Yemen’s main Western and Gulf partners will also meet to try to mobilise support for the country and identify what needs to be done by the government and its allies to tackle its challenges.

    In addition to fighting a resurgent al Qaeda, Yemen is also fighting a separate northern Shi’ite rebellion and trying to contain southern separatists.

    Three Yemeni soldiers were killed in an attack at a Yemeni checkpoint by suspected southern separatists, a Yemeni official said on Sunday, in a province where the state is also hunting al Qaeda.

    (Additional reporting by Amena Bakr in Dubai and Mohamed Sudam in Sanaa; Writing by Cynthia Johnston; Editing by Louise Ireland and Amran Abocar)



    © Copyright (c) Reuters
    September 11th - Never Forget

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    He admitted to doing it. He his guilty. He should be executed, not next week, not next year, not 10 years from now, get what information you can from him and execute him. If we were to start doing that, it would make these nut bags think about committing these types of acts against us.

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    These" nut bags" as you call them--dying is what they want, so you would be doing him a favour.

    But if you were to sew him insde a pigs skin this ain't what he would like--OTY
    "If you thought it was hard getting into the job--wait until you have to hang the "fire gear"up and walk away!"
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    Glad to see that all of you children understand the real issue.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Glad to see that all of you children understand the real issue.
    You thought that people would be like "dont punish him, let him go?" Your not getting a rise out of any one any more George.

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    Red cable-left nut...... black cable-right nut......

    You/I have the switch...... use it without prejudice.

    I didn't vote for Obama, wonder why????

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerfire1156 View Post
    You thought that people would be like "dont punish him, let him go?" Your not getting a rise out of any one any more George.
    No, but good guess, skippy. You can pick up your consolation prize on the way out.

    The issue is about the huge mistake the Obama administration is making treating the Al Queda terrorists like a car thief. They are our enemy. They have declared war on us. They must be treated like enemy combatants-regardless of who was prosecuted in the past- and kept off of our shores. They belong in the custody and control of the military.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Thats a pretty slippery slope you advocate starting down. Since its inception in 1776, one of the things that has set the US in the forefront of free countries is your rule of law. You start changing that and you could open a nasty nest of worms. The guys in Gitmo are one thing, they were captured in a foreign battle by or were turned over to your military. This dolt of an underwear bomber was on a US Airline, near or over US territory when he was stopped. With many witnesses and his family jewels burning, I doubt there is any more needed for a conviction. So he doesn't say anymore? So what? The guy is looking at a grey concrete roof for the rest of his life. What would the military do any different. Do you advocate the miltary actually torturing him to learn that he doesn't know anything anyway. Look at the goof, do you actually think this is someone privvy to Osamas deepest secrets?

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    "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men." - Edward R. Murrow


    Here is an interesting interview
    , it was aired almost 56 years ago but it might as well have been aired 56 minutes ago.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Thats a pretty slippery slope you advocate starting down. Since its inception in 1776, one of the things that has set the US in the forefront of free countries is your rule of law. You start changing that and you could open a nasty nest of worms. The guys in Gitmo are one thing, they were captured in a foreign battle by or were turned over to your military. This dolt of an underwear bomber was on a US Airline, near or over US territory when he was stopped. With many witnesses and his family jewels burning, I doubt there is any more needed for a conviction. So he doesn't say anymore? So what? The guy is looking at a grey concrete roof for the rest of his life. What would the military do any different. Do you advocate the miltary actually torturing him to learn that he doesn't know anything anyway. Look at the goof, do you actually think this is someone privvy to Osamas deepest secrets?
    But our law pertains to our citizens. Not the entire world.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    But our law pertains to our citizens. Not the entire world.
    Actually, our law pertains to anyone in the individual state or nation - regardless of where the alleged assailant/criminal is from.

    If you are from Singapore and try to beat a guy in Houston you are subject to Texas law. It does not matter where you are from, it matters where you commit the crime.

    However, I agree that if you commit an overt act of terrorism - an act of war, regardless of whether as part of a nation's standing army or not, you are different than a common criminal who wanted to firebomb a building, or murder the guy who your wife cheated with.

    There is a difference. In the modern era, standing armies are almost a thing of the past, and these people need to be treated differently - whether the combatant was caught in Detroit or Kabul.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Actually, what I got out of the original article, and the subsequent post from Sherri is this:

    As per local protocols (and probably private conversation between the field agent and his Boss), the local FBI office chose to take and keep control. For better or worse, it would appear that inter-agency communications did not take place, which again is pretty normal. Also, there is the transition of custody etc to be considered. He might have "gotten lost" in the transfer. (insert sarcastic humour here)

    I mostly agree with George though, terrorists are considered as "combatants" and should be treated as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    I mostly agree with George though, terrorists are considered as "combatants" and should be treated as such.
    I've got a couple of .45 calibre rounds here I can spare. The only treatment this guy deserves is death. He will not be reformed, and he wanted to die anyway. He is already a martyr so nothing is really lost.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Thats a pretty slippery slope you advocate starting down. Since its inception in 1776, one of the things that has set the US in the forefront of free countries is your rule of law. You start changing that and you could open a nasty nest of worms. The guys in Gitmo are one thing, they were captured in a foreign battle by or were turned over to your military. This dolt of an underwear bomber was on a US Airline, near or over US territory when he was stopped. With many witnesses and his family jewels burning, I doubt there is any more needed for a conviction. So he doesn't say anymore? So what? The guy is looking at a grey concrete roof for the rest of his life. What would the military do any different. Do you advocate the miltary actually torturing him to learn that he doesn't know anything anyway. Look at the goof, do you actually think this is someone privvy to Osamas deepest secrets?
    We have had very few attacks on the U.S. on U.S. soil. The Japanese come to mind in 1941. But your raise interesting questions. For instance, what if this had been a German airplane, say Lufthansa? Who has jurisdiction then? Since he wasn't yet into the united states ( he hadn't cleared customs) is he protected by our laws. Suppose the incident happened on Lufthansa over Canadian Air Space.

    At this time we know the guy acted alone. At that time we had no idea. What if there were other airliners int he sky and this was similar to 9-11? We need that info immediately. This man is a foreigner attackers the United States. He is and should be treated like a prisoner of war.

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    I think that you should hold these clowns up to the ridicule they deserve. Look into the facts closely and you'll find that the "shoe bomber" and the
    "underwear bomber' are deserving only ridicule. The amount of explosives they had and the means of ignition were pathetic and truly are the brain child of semi illiterate savages. Don't give them the credibility of terrorists. Toss them into the super max and let some big old boy name of Bubba befriend them for the next 40 or 50 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I think that you should hold these clowns up to the ridicule they deserve. Look into the facts closely and you'll find that the "shoe bomber" and the
    "underwear bomber' are deserving only ridicule. The amount of explosives they had and the means of ignition were pathetic and truly are the brain child of semi illiterate savages. Don't give them the credibility of terrorists. Toss them into the super max and let some big old boy name of Bubba befriend them for the next 40 or 50 years
    Innocent by reason of mental defect.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Innocent by reason of mental defect.......
    Sphincter says "What?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    We have had very few attacks on the U.S. on U.S. soil. The Japanese come to mind in 1941. But your raise interesting questions. For instance, what if this had been a German airplane, say Lufthansa? Who has jurisdiction then? Since he wasn't yet into the united states ( he hadn't cleared customs) is he protected by our laws. Suppose the incident happened on Lufthansa over Canadian Air Space.

    At this time we know the guy acted alone. At that time we had no idea. What if there were other airliners int he sky and this was similar to 9-11? We need that info immediately. This man is a foreigner attackers the United States. He is and should be treated like a prisoner of war.
    I'm not sure that the book is closed on this guy acting alone. At the time of the incident, there were multiple parties coming forward who were the plane stating that the combatant came to the terminal with another male who spoke to the gate agents about his lack of papers and convinced them to allow the combatant on board. I have not seen this possibility addressed by the authorities.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men." - Edward R. Murrow


    Here is an interesting interview
    , it was aired almost 56 years ago but it might as well have been aired 56 minutes ago.
    Reading that interview, one could replace McCarthy with Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    No, but good guess, skippy. You can pick up your consolation prize on the way out.

    The issue is about the huge mistake the Obama administration is making treating the Al Queda terrorists like a car thief. They are our enemy. They have declared war on us. They must be treated like enemy combatants-regardless of who was prosecuted in the past- and kept off of our shores. They belong in the custody and control of the military.
    Which is exactly how the Bush Administration treated individuals of a similar act. Richard Reid and Zacarias Moussaoui come to mind.

    I see no reason why the undie bomber should be treated any differently if we are to continue claiming the moral high ground.

    And he isn't being treated like a car thief. He's being treated like someone who tried to blow up an airplane.
    Last edited by scfire86; 01-25-2010 at 01:12 PM.
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    To answer your question,as soon as any flagged aircraft is wheels in the well,(aka airborne),they are considered a sovereign territory of the state whose flag they have painted on the tail.It's a technicality but he was "on" US soil when he lit off his pants whether he struck the match over the Atlantic or on final approach to Detroit.
    He might have acted alone but he had help somewhere.The guy made numerous trips to the US,presumably scouting out the opposition,before making his move.
    How many people in Nigeria can afford numerous trips on US flaged aircarriers in such short time?
    He had to have a support network somewhere.Too bad they read him his rights and he knew to clam up without a lawyer present.I think I know how my Uncle and cousin felt in Viet Nam when they'd chase NVA and VC to the Cambodian border and couldn't chase after them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    We have had very few attacks on the U.S. on U.S. soil. The Japanese come to mind in 1941. But your raise interesting questions. For instance, what if this had been a German airplane, say Lufthansa? Who has jurisdiction then? Since he wasn't yet into the united states ( he hadn't cleared customs) is he protected by our laws. Suppose the incident happened on Lufthansa over Canadian Air Space.

    At this time we know the guy acted alone. At that time we had no idea. What if there were other airliners int he sky and this was similar to 9-11? We need that info immediately. This man is a foreigner attackers the United States. He is and should be treated like a prisoner of war.

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    I just wonder what else he might have said if we water boarded him .... its not like was accidentally an innocent person who just live in the neighborhood and "got grabbed" by accident.

    Don't forget we have water boarded wayyyy more us soldiers in training than we ever did terrorists and contrary to the belief of democrats US military is not an enemy of the United States of America.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...or-398490.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by owenscott View Post
    Don't forget we have water boarded wayyyy more us soldiers in training than we ever did terrorists and contrary to the belief of democrats US military is not an enemy of the United States of America.
    Apples and oranges. Waterboarding for the purposes of familiarizing soldiers for a potential experience at the hands of the enemy is a whole lot different than being waterboarded by an enemy for the purposes of acquiring information.

    I never understood why military personnel would even waste time torturing low ranking soldiers. The majority of them know very little about actual plans being devised at the strategic level.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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