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  1. #1
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    Default 2010 AFG Question

    I have yet another question and i apologize for all the questions but i am trying to get a head of the ball game before i take my grant class next week.

    Question: We would like to replace our 1978 TP and apply for a Brush/Attack truck. We do not have one. Is this a good possibility or do you need to have an existing brush truck? Would we be better off going for a Tanker/Tender?

    our apparatus:

    1993 Engine International
    2001 Tanker/Pumper International
    1978 Tanker/Pumper
    2010 Rescue F-350


  2. #2
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    Default

    OK, put yourself in the position of the reviewer. You're asking to replace a tanker-pumper with a brush truck. Would that make sense to you?

    I can see a couple of obstacles you're going to have to deal with, the first and foremost being your fleet age. From my calculation, you're looking at a 14-15 year average age. Not to say it's not doable, it's just going to be tougher.

    Second, what does your brush call volume look like? If you don't get many, you're going to have a hard time pushing that angle. If you get quite a few, you'll rank better.

    Remember to evaluate what your department needs. Do you need a brush truck or do you need to replace an unsafe pumper/tanker? Are you going to use the brush truck (or pumper/tanker for that matter) enough to drop your cost/benefit ratio low enough to score well.

    Just a couple of things I'll throw out there, I'm sure there'll be more guys chime in.

  3. #3
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    Since the average age of a fleet seems to be an important factor on vehicle applications, I have a question for the ones that have recieved a positive response this year. What is your average fleet age????

  4. #4
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    i understand what your saying... the TP is old and we dont use the pump anymore. It is used as a tanker if one of the 5 people show up that can drive it. In fact it doesnt pass inspection anymore and hasnt been inspected since 2008. We run 104 calls a year and had 19 brush/grass/tree fires. It seems like they are all where we cant get to them with out 400 ft of hose from the road. So yes we really could use a brush truck. However that was my thinking is how do i justify replacing the TP with a brush truck.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown8988 View Post
    i understand what your saying... the TP is old and we dont use the pump anymore. It is used as a tanker if one of the 5 people show up that can drive it. In fact it doesnt pass inspection anymore and hasnt been inspected since 2008. We run 104 calls a year and had 19 brush/grass/tree fires. It seems like they are all where we cant get to them with out 400 ft of hose from the road. So yes we really could use a brush truck. However that was my thinking is how do i justify replacing the TP with a brush truck.
    If your greatest need is a brush truck and not replacing the TP (a different catergory of apparatus), then go for it. The worse case scenario is the AFG will say no.

    In this case you should not be trying to justify replacing the TP, but justifying the need for the brush truck and leave the TP out of the equation. Remember to look at the full picture and not just the outside fire potential. Do you do medical aids that require off road capabilities? etc.

    Since you do not have a brush truck; gives you a higher competitive edge over those that do.

  6. #6
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    Default 2009 Awardee

    As of right now my department is in line for a new pumper. However, there was several reasons why we had a better chance than moist. Our fleet age was only 14 years old at the time off application.....Why is that not important. Because with two pumpers in our station, not one of them was NFPA compliant. If your pumper tanker is not NFPA compliant that is a great reason to apply for another truck. You also run 15-20 brush/grass fires are year. That is a decent percentage of your over-all calll volume. I doubt you will be awarded a brush truck.....not only is it replacing a truck of greater significance but technically you are taking on a new risk (not having a brush truck in service right now). If it were me I would try for a new pumper tanker...I know this doesn't solve your problem however, technology is gettting better and better. On our brush truck we have a 400' roll of forestry line. That could be something you could add to your "new" truck to help compensate for your fleet age. Then you would be replace an old unsafe pumper tanker. You keep the water and pump capacity making your departments ISO ratings better or the same. Also with the hose reel and maybe a 4X4 chassis, you can cover the brush truck side of it. Obviously the more weight in water goes on this truck the less it will go off-road but you get the jist. Just something to ponder!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    If your greatest need is a brush truck and not replacing the TP (a different catergory of apparatus), then go for it. The worse case scenario is the AFG will say no.

    In this case you should not be trying to justify replacing the TP, but justifying the need for the brush truck and leave the TP out of the equation. Remember to look at the full picture and not just the outside fire potential. Do you do medical aids that require off road capabilities? etc.

    Since you do not have a brush truck; gives you a higher competitive edge over those that do.
    "gives you a higher competitive edge over those that do"

    you mean the people who have one are better off? or that we are better off that we dont have one?

    and yes we do medical aid calls in areas where one would be needed.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown8988 View Post
    "gives you a higher competitive edge over those that do"

    you mean the people who have one are better off? or that we are better off that we dont have one?

    and yes we do medical aid calls in areas where one would be needed.
    From the PG:

    DHS believes that a greater benefit will be derived from funding an additional vehicle(s) to
    departments that own few vehicles like the type requested. As such, DHS assigns a
    higher competitive rating in the apparatus category to fire departments that own fewer
    firefighting vehicles relative to other departments serving similar types of communities
    (i.e., urban, suburban, and rural).
    As a result, departments with fewer vehicles of a given type than other departments that service comparable call volumes are more likely to score competitively than departments with more vehicles of that type and comparable call volume unless the need for an additional vehicle of similar type is made apparent in the application.
    Last edited by onebugle; 01-25-2010 at 01:38 PM.

  9. #9
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    ok cool! where do you find info like that? then maybe i wouldn't have to bother u guys

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown8988 View Post
    ok cool! where do you find info like that? then maybe i wouldn't have to bother u guys
    The info is in the Program Guidance.

  11. #11
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    ok i must be a complete frigen idiot because i cant find it. where is the program guidance?

  12. #12
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    The program guidance for 2010 AFG is not out yet. When it does come out, look at the priorities for the various vehicles. If you are asking for a vehicle that is below the top priority you will not get it. Pumpers will most likely be the top priority. I recommend you focus on how unsafe the current pumper-tanker is, call it a pumper. Then offer to replace it with an all-wheel drive pumper. Keep the tank small to reduce ground pressure but have at least a 750 GPM pump. Then you have a dual-purpose pumper brush truck. AFG loves to replace unsafe stuff.

  13. #13
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    It's under the "Program Docs" link on the left side when you're in the AFG page.

    To save you some time, http://www.firegrantsupport.com/cont...ogramDocs.aspx

    Since 2010 isn't out, just use 2009 as a reference for now. There's typically not that much change.

  14. #14
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    No matter how you slice it--the 2001 tanker and the 2010 rescue rig really hurt this dept's chance of a vehicle award. Are you presently meeting your water shuttle needs with mutual aid? Is 19 vegetation fires/year normal or was that an anomoly? How many medical calls are you getting out in the wilds for? If several--is there some reason you didn't satisfy that need when the 2010 rescue was purchased?

    No need to answer those here--just the questions i'd have if i was reviewing that app. No doubt in my mind that you need it--i know the type of truck. But it's a competitive app process, so you need to be ready.

    earl

  15. #15
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    "is there some reason you didn't satisfy that need when the 2010 rescue was purchased?"

    our old rescue barely made it to calls... we would have to pull over and let the ambulance go by us. We fought for 2 years like this to finally convince the commishioners that we needed a new and it turned into such a war between the dept and the commishioners that we had absolutely no say in what was purchased. we dont even have it yet. It was supposed to be here in december. we no nothing besides it is a 2010 f-350 crew cab!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown8988 View Post
    "is there some reason you didn't satisfy that need when the 2010 rescue was purchased?"

    our old rescue barely made it to calls... we would have to pull over and let the ambulance go by us. We fought for 2 years like this to finally convince the commishioners that we needed a new and it turned into such a war between the dept and the commishioners that we had absolutely no say in what was purchased. we dont even have it yet. It was supposed to be here in december. we no nothing besides it is a 2010 f-350 crew cab!
    The unfortunate thing is with a little planning you could have accomplished both in one vehicle. A slightly larger chassis, rescue style body and skid pump and you would have been all set.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    The unfortunate thing is with a little planning you could have accomplished both in one vehicle. A slightly larger chassis, rescue style body and skid pump and you would have been all set.
    Yes i know and that is the unfortunate thing. We tried and they didnt want to know anything. Just like these grants, they wanted to know nothing.... its terrible!
    Although i have to say we have a new Head Commish as of the other night and i got one of them to go with me to the grant school so we are making leway.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wvfd322 View Post
    As of right now my department is in line for a new pumper. However, there was several reasons why we had a better chance than moist. Our fleet age was only 14 years old at the time off application.....Why is that not important. Because with two pumpers in our station, not one of them was NFPA compliant. If your pumper tanker is not NFPA compliant that is a great reason to apply for another truck. You also run 15-20 brush/grass fires are year. That is a decent percentage of your over-all calll volume. I doubt you will be awarded a brush truck.....not only is it replacing a truck of greater significance but technically you are taking on a new risk (not having a brush truck in service right now). If it were me I would try for a new pumper tanker...I know this doesn't solve your problem however, technology is gettting better and better. On our brush truck we have a 400' roll of forestry line. That could be something you could add to your "new" truck to help compensate for your fleet age. Then you would be replace an old unsafe pumper tanker. You keep the water and pump capacity making your departments ISO ratings better or the same. Also with the hose reel and maybe a 4X4 chassis, you can cover the brush truck side of it. Obviously the more weight in water goes on this truck the less it will go off-road but you get the jist. Just something to ponder!

    I understand the NFPA Compliant issue be a good reason, but if you don't get past the computer scoring, all the reasons in the world won't help you.

    The way I understand this grant thing. The average vehicle age can make or break you during the computer scoring.

  19. #19
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    how do you figure the average vehicle age? and is there a certain number fema looks for with the average?

  20. #20
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    If you don't have the 2010 truck when you complete the 2010 grant request, you should not count it as an available vehicle. That raises your fleet age to close to 20 years though I do not know the cutoff. We got an 1199A for a replacement pumper but our fleet is in the 25 year range.

    I would definitely go to the new head of your board and wee if he/she is willing to discuss the need for a brush capability on the truck they are buying.

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