Thread: PMI kits

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    Default PMI kits

    Were can i fine information on how to use your PMI rope kit. Were is the safes place to hook it too if you need to go out a window.

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    Quick anchoring is really the key to the whole puzzle. Here are two examples of anchoring options:
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    In addition to just putting the hook on the window sill. R2, how heavy is that hook that comes with the CMC kit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    In addition to just putting the hook on the window sill. R2, how heavy is that hook that comes with the CMC kit?
    The hook in the window is certainly a very quick anchor, but not possible to do with the PMI kit with the biner on the end. It also is less secure than the two pics shown because, if you let off your hook for just a moment before it is loaded, you lose your anchor entirely.

    The NARS hook weighs about 50 grams less than a Crosby hook (if metric means anything to you). It's a lot lighter than it looks.

    I've posted it in a a couple other posts, but here is a video of how quick you can get out with a prerigged system and anchor at the sill:

    http://www.rescue2training.com/custom.html?id=4146

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    Just a couple of questions...or comments....

    It doesn't look like you can just set that hook in to the frame....looks like if it takes any kind of shock or shifting....it will come out. And looking at the knot in the first pic....how is that tide? Can it be done without crossing through the hook system and can it be done with gloves on....which in the pic I don't see the guy wearing any....maybe its just from instructional purposes...IDK.

    These bail out systems should be able to be deployed within seconds and with minimal effort. The last thing you are thinking about is not how to tie a complex knot or where to put the tool for an anchor...you just want OUT as fast as possible....open teh bag, set the hook, flop out the window.....and not drop....quick deployment, easy deployment, as hands free as possible, and dependable.

    I'm not trying to knock this system shown.....I just have a bunch of questions. I just think there has been a RUSH to jump on the bail out band wagon like there was with FAST development. To me, many systems out there are just band-aids and haven't had much serious field testing.....just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    Just a couple of questions...or comments....

    It doesn't look like you can just set that hook in to the frame....looks like if it takes any kind of shock or shifting....it will come out. And looking at the knot in the first pic....how is that tide? Can it be done without crossing through the hook system and can it be done with gloves on....which in the pic I don't see the guy wearing any....maybe its just from instructional purposes...IDK.

    These bail out systems should be able to be deployed within seconds and with minimal effort. The last thing you are thinking about is not how to tie a complex knot or where to put the tool for an anchor...you just want OUT as fast as possible....open teh bag, set the hook, flop out the window.....and not drop....quick deployment, easy deployment, as hands free as possible, and dependable.

    I'm not trying to knock this system shown.....I just have a bunch of questions. I just think there has been a RUSH to jump on the bail out band wagon like there was with FAST development. To me, many systems out there are just band-aids and haven't had much serious field testing.....just my opinion.

    Stay Safe
    You can just set that hook in the frame. While the link to the video may not have shown it that well, that is exactly what I did; in full gear, with gloves on BTW my weigh in full battle rattle is 325 lbs. The only thing missing was being on air. You stated that you just want to hook and go. If you are not using some sort of hook or want to think about placing a tool, what do YOU use for an anchor? The system the original poster has is only supplied with carabiners, so I was trying to show similar examples to help answer his question.

    The knot in the first pic is simply a bight of rope passed through the hole in the hook and brought back up over the top. While I did not have my gloves on in the picture, it can certainly be done with gloves on, I have done it quite a bit.

    I'm curious to know how you field test something that is not some sort of a bandaid? Doesn't everything start off as an idea to fix a problem and get refined into something better; like respiratory protection at fires: wet beard in the mouth, chem ox, McKay mask, sling pack, SCBA. It's usually a progression.

    I have to take issue with the fact that this is a bandwagon mentality. Especially when you state that the FAST concept is also a bandwagon. Don't you think that a device or concept that allows firemen to aggressively attack the fire from the interior, yet remain safe is a good direction to go? Why wouldn't you want this in place as soon as possible if it makes you safer than the day before without hindering your ability to do the job?

    Lastly, I think that people may confuse the system's ability with that of the user. Carlos Santana can play a crap guitar and still like Santana. I can play an expensive guitar and still sound just as bad as I do now. It's all in the hands of the user. Similarly, if you have drilled, A LOT, with your system, you can deploy it quickly and safely when you need to.

    Vinnie, take a look at that video and tell me what you think could be done to deploy my kit more quickly and with a greater safety margin. I'm not being a smartass, I'm just always looking to fine tune my kit.

    Stay Safe.

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    We are currently in the process of figuring out what type of Bailout systems to go with. We are looking at kits from PMI, RIT Systems and Petzl. We are leaning towards the new RIT System that uses webbing and a simple to operate descender but have not decided. The type of hook has been in question as well.

    Here is some info about the isssue here, anchoring.

    While i love the options presented to use an Axe or Halligan to anchor at a window frame, there are some major drawbacks to this idea.

    One, while the ideal situation would be the method of jamming the handle through the wallboard and then sliding the tool in to the wall to anchor you, that option is (excuse the pun) out the window with masonry or heavy wood interior wall coverings which are quite common in industrial buildings and in older, converted mill buildings to condo's for example. Me have all sorts of housing around here with brick interior walls.

    Option two of using the tool in the lower corner of the window frame to act as an anchor works with any wall type, which is great. But this method is entireley dependant on keeping the rope in the center of the tools handle and keeping tension on the rope. In your haste to exit, should the tension loosen on the rope, the tool could rotate out of place or the tool could slide down the rope making the tool dangerously uncentered on the window corner.

    Lastly, this method is 100% dependant on you having some sort of tool. If you forget a tool or lose your tool somewhere (which is quite easy to do) you have now lost your primary anchor.

    With the above issues in mind, the hook is a much safer alternative. It works with any interior wall type, is small enough that it can be carried attached to your bailout kit at all times and because the design, it should stay in place even if tension is lost momentarily. A hook can easily go around a pipe, a stud, windowframe, large piece of equipment, etc. The only downside to a hook is the fact it is not easily used when tieing off to something as easily as using a carabiner.

    Lastly, the carabiner option. This offers the simplest and most secure way of securing the bailout rope around an object such as a pipe, beam or stud. And there is zero issue with it coming off due to lack of tension. The only downside to a carabiner is the fact you HAVE to be able to get it around an object. If you were in a masonry type wharehouse for example with nothing in it. There may be nothing to tie off to. What do you do then? There is no guarantee you will find a solid object strong enough to hold your weight AND be accessible all the way around it to pass the rope. And large open floor plans with no interior walls means the studs on the outside walls are worthless. So with that in mind, having only a carabiner is a poor choice. If you use a Carbiner only type system, i HIGHLY reccomend this device:

    http://www.rescuetech1.com/search.as...=WINDOW+ANCHOR

    It is super lightweight and folds in half. Once unfolded, the carabiner locks it open. This is an absolute must have last ditch effort device. So long as there is a window, you will have an anchor.


    Our ideal solution is to use the Crosby hook and then about 6" below the sewn eye, have a carabiner as well tied off. This gives us the best of both worlds. A hook AND a carabiner. Making it easy to secure yourself to a solid object by wrapping around it or if nessecary, the hook for everything else.

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    I have been wanting to start a new, in depth thread on bailout kits and this looks like the best place as any to voice my opinions on the matter.

    In my expirience, very few windows do not have some type of sill, especialy in residential applications. That is why I feel that if you are designing a kit with a non tool anchor, the hook is the way to go. Like R2's video, quick and easy to deploy and you get out quick, which is the point after all right?

    The only few downfalls to these systems are this. First, cost. They are all 200-300 dollars. Not bad if the department covers the bill, but if you are buying them yourself thats a hit. Second, they require a harness. If you dont have gear that has loops for a harness they will have to be added. Plus you have to buy the harness as well.

    When considering these points, as well as the fact that I will be transferring the kit I use between sets of gear depending on where I am working, in addition to having no structures in my response area over 2 stories, I am going with a drop bag and an anchor. Any of us could body slide out of a two story window. Would I want to do it from a 4 story apartment? No. That is where the full out kits come into play.

    Not every kit will work for everyone. Look at what you have to work with and the potential need before making the decision on what kind and brand of kit to go with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    WD6956

    We've messed around with a biner tied in line below the hook. It is not a bad option that does offer some great options. The only problem I see with it is that it a little bit cumbersome to deploy and it clutters up the working end of your system. If that's the only thing wrong with it, it might not be a bad way to go. It certainly offers great flexibility for anchoring.

    The NARS hook that I use acts as a hook and carabiner combine. If you imagine the hole in the hook as a biner, you can do many of the same things as a biner. You just need to drop a bight through the hole and bring it back up over the top of the hook.

    The window anchor you linked to looks good except for what I see as one fatal flaw. You have to unclip the biner, open the anchor up, and reconnect your biner before it is able to be used. Either that, or just keep it stored in the open position.

    As for anchoring at the window: I have found that no matter which way I anchor off at the window, any tension lost during the edge transition usually means that the anchor is lost. By anchoring remotely, you have the additional dilemma of having to choose a friction device that will allow easy horizontal travel (from your remote anchor to the window) and still allow friction during the descent.


    GTRider:

    I think a belt style harness solves a few of your problems. It will allow you to transfer it easily between sets of gear and it's cheaper than a full seat harness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    The NARS hook that I use acts as a hook and carabiner combine. If you imagine the hole in the hook as a biner, you can do many of the same things as a biner. You just need to drop a bight through the hole and bring it back up over the top of the hook. .
    That is a good point. Ill have to take another look at those.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    The window anchor you linked to looks good except for what I see as one fatal flaw. You have to unclip the biner, open the anchor up, and reconnect your biner before it is able to be used. Either that, or just keep it stored in the open position..
    What we were going to do was simply keep the anchor folded in your pocket. Then for use, you simply flip it open and attach the biner. This does save one step. Just wondering, would a biner fit the NARS or Crosby hook?. I am figuring that might be another alternative as the hook would be attatched, ready to go, but if need be, just unhook it and use the biner only? Thoughts??


    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    As for anchoring at the window: I have found that no matter which way I anchor off at the window, any tension lost during the edge transition usually means that the anchor is lost..
    I would agree unless your lucky enough to sink a hook unto sheetrock near the window frame. I consider myself the "worst case scenario guy" when it comes to anchor points. I am 6'5, 240lbs so i HAVE to think of the best anchor points. With gear on and the dead load rolling out a window, i could easily add 300lbs of force to that anchor point. That could easily snap a radiator free from the floor!

    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    By anchoring remotely, you have the additional dilemma of having to choose a friction device that will allow easy horizontal travel (from your remote anchor to the window) and still allow friction during the descent..
    Agreed. That is why we are looking at the CMC Escape Artist and the RIT F.I.R.E. AL which both offer the ability to take the tension off the line to allow for simple horizontal travel. Figure 8's and small friction only type devices are something we are trying to avoid. We want simple, foolproof reliable descenders. If we go with rope vs webbing, the CMC Double Brake escape artist is what i am leaning towards. If you let go, it will stop you, if you panic and squeeze too hard it wll stop you. Sounds like a good idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    I think a belt style harness solves a few of your problems. It will allow you to transfer it easily between sets of gear and it's cheaper than a full seat harness.
    Some of the belt's work great. They are certainly not ideal compared to a class II seat harness, but they will do the job. If they are too loose, they could ride up during your descent and possibly cause some injuries. But it still beats being stuck in a burning building. Sav-A-Jake makes a great model as do Yates. And Gemtor makes their Pompier belt which would work great. Lot's of padding. The only downside to belt system is it is not automatically put on you. You have to remember to put it on. That is why i prefer the class II harness attached to the pants with bailout kit mounted to the harness. This way it's always with you. You cannot forget to put it on. The greatest bailout kit made is worthless if it's hanging in your locker at the station or sitting in the truck when you are trapped 3 floors up be a fire you did'nt see when you entered.

    As for seat harnesses and multiple gear, the key is having the loops installed. You can swap a harness between pants in less then 2 minutes. And the loops keep the harness excatly where it should be.

    And if your looking for a belt or harness. Let me know. I have some brand new Gemtor harnesses and belts we are not going to use. Some still sealed in the bag.

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    Very true, the belt does offer the anchor point of a harness while being transferrable between gear. It is one of many options I have thought about.

    One day down the road I plan on having full harnesses put in both sets of my gear. But like I said before, with all the factors combined right now I think the drop bag with 40 or 50 feet of rope will work just fine and be easily swapped between sets.

    Like R2 said before though, whatever you get TRAIN with it. No way to use it and use it quickly if you aren't familliar with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    You can just set that hook in the frame. While the link to the video may not have shown it that well, that is exactly what I did; in full gear, with gloves on BTW my weigh in full battle rattle is 325 lbs. The only thing missing was being on air.
    I would like to see more of the hook action. Is it limited to just wood frames? How about steam risers and project windows ledges?

    You stated that you just want to hook and go. If you are not using some sort of hook or want to think about placing a tool, what do YOU use for an anchor?
    The knot in the first pic is simply a bight of rope passed through the hole in the hook and brought back up over the top. While I did not have my gloves on in the picture, it can certainly be done with gloves on, I have done it quite a bit.
    Might be some confusion here...yes I said hook and go. Having the option to use a hand tool or tying off is great and should be trained on, for those will be used when you have a little bit of time. Situation will dictate. I'm not arguing about using a hook as an anchor. I was referring to the knot that was tied in your pic. Maybe I'm missing or cant see it well. Can the same result be achieved by tying a few quick bits directly to the hook at the neck? As for using a tool, If an entire company has to bail out and need to go through the same window, do they all have to slide the tool through each individual hook or can they just hook the tool and go?

    I'm curious to know how you field test something that is not some sort of a bandaid? Doesn't everything start off as an idea to fix a problem and get refined into something better; like respiratory protection at fires: wet beard in the mouth, chem ox, McKay mask, sling pack, SCBA. It's usually a progression.
    Not disagreeing with you, nor was I knocking your system, as I prefaced in my previous post. Assuming you've been OTJ long enough to know there there is PLENTY of gear out there that has not gone through the proper field tests. I know my job get solicited everyday with new items and ideas....these items and ideas sometimes don't even make the field test phase.

    I have to take issue with the fact that this is a bandwagon mentality. Especially when you state that the FAST concept is also a bandwagon.
    You should, all Firemen should! Don't you think there has been a rush to these concepts? And how many truly unqualified personnel are out there! Sure they like to strut with their chests out but have never been humbled! I know your FD is not a bandwagon outfit, nor is mine. But you can't tell me that from looking in this site and ALL the other sites out there....youtube comes to mind that there aren't plenty of examples of bandwagon ideas. They might mean well, but are not thought through well enough. Not to tell fire stories...but there are a few incidents that stand out in my mind that are personnel experiences. They did not involved my career FD, but the town I once lived in. These guys would empty their entire rig of tools, JAWS included; and stage them far from the fire building. Now these guys had gone through the proper state training and did drill....but the drills where very weak at best and usually turned into a "beerfest". My career FD is much much different. We drill a lot and are routinely sent as a company while working to the academy to conduct a Multi-Unit Drill and competency reviews.

    Don't you think that a device or concept that allows firemen to aggressively attack the fire from the interior, yet remain safe is a good direction to go? Why wouldn't you want this in place as soon as possible if it makes you safer than the day before without hindering your ability to do the job?
    Yes, but that first and primary device should be our brain housing group. All too often members take on the mind set of Bunker Gear, Ropes, and SCAB will let me get closer for longer....when that is not case. Bailout ropes SHOULD NOT be thought of as allowing us to more aggressively attack fires! Getting ahead of ourselves, going above the fire without a line in place at the fire compartment is not what we should be doing, but it happens over and over again. Because we no longer feel the heat on our balls and we can walk through thick smoke without going for air at the floor corners of rooms and each window to puke out of. Equipment is no substitute for acting safe and smart. Heck, More members have been killed (excluding heart attacks) as a result to Smoke inhalation, burns and crush injuries these days then in the late seventies...and we are going to less fires now. Why is that?

    Lastly, I think that people may confuse the system's ability with that of the user. Carlos Santana can play a crap guitar and still like Santana. I can play an expensive guitar and still sound just as bad as I do now. It's all in the hands of the user. Similarly, if you have drilled, A LOT, with your system, you can deploy it quickly and safely when you need to.
    That goes along with what I've been saying. I'll go with that.

    Vinnie, take a look at that video and tell me what you think could be done to deploy my kit more quickly and with a greater safety margin. I'm not being a smartass, I'm just always looking to fine tune my kit.
    Brother, I have thick skin. I couldn't work where I do without it. If this was the kitchen table, I may throw a bag of bagels at you though!

    One other question; does the hook hang out of the bag like that always? Can you streamline its profile? Have you found it to be a nuseance while trying to climb ladders with tools like the saw? How is it going through a window? Does it get hung up on anything? How about when removing someone? Civilian or Fireman? Will it jab the victims body? Can it get caught and deployed accidentally? Lastly....will that system work for any building in DC?


    Stay Safe

    Vinnie

    ps....I am assuming you are a DCFD member. I'll send you a pm regarding a question I have that doesn't pertain to this subject. I have a question about your ground ladder set up.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 02-01-2010 at 03:01 PM.
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    I like the halligan in the corner of the window. I've used that and it seems pretty solid. I've also been shown to make a tensionless anchor by wrapping a couch or bed, pushing it up to the wall where the window is you are going out of and using that. Going through the wall is another good option.

    I've only trained on it a few times, but most of our firefighters were just handed a bailout bag and do not know how to properly use it, luckily we are having a drill n it coming up.
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    Sorry to revive this thread, just wondering is anybody has a NARS hook and a Crosby hook that they could photograph side by side? I am still working on this proposal and am trying to show the difference in sizes of the two in comparison. We are trying to decide which one is more compact and stores easier. I know the Crosby hook is smaller, i just want a visual comparison. Pictures have a much better impact then written specs.

    Thanks in advance.

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