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    Default Please Delete This Thread-Posted In Error

    PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD AT THIS TIME

    Seth
    Last edited by WestTac1; 02-01-2010 at 10:16 AM.

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    Alright Seth, I'll bite. Why is this a "next generation tower ladder"? More importantly, what are the specs on it? Who built it, what's the capabilities, etc?
    Train like you want to fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post
    Alright Seth, I'll bite. Why is this a "next generation tower ladder"? More importantly, what are the specs on it? Who built it, what's the capabilities, etc?
    Agreed. Based on that picture, i see nothing different? It does not even look like a new truck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    Agreed. Based on that picture, i see nothing different? It does not even look like a new truck?
    It is for sure new. It's the new cab style, like on their new engines. Instead of having the dog house in the back, it's up front so there is a crew-type area for the firefighters. Also, it has the raised roof, new lighting configuration, and changes in the compartment dimentions.

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    I would have to agree. It's clearly a "new" truck.

    The cab is a Maurader II, split-tilt cab with a raised roof. Essentially the same cab as the new engines. Non of the current tower ladders have Maurader II cabs, raised roofs or split-tilt.

    The "next generation" tag probably refers to the new cab configuration I mentioned above and that the ladder is maybe an Aerialscope II model.
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 01-31-2010 at 07:12 PM.

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    Post Aerialscope II

    Seagrave fire apparatus has a 75' Scope for sale as a Demo/Stock unit, it was built for the F.D.N.Y. and they refused to accept the truck !Maybe this is the second unit built for New York City ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATFDFF View Post
    It is for sure new. It's the new cab style, like on their new engines. Instead of having the dog house in the back, it's up front so there is a crew-type area for the firefighters. Also, it has the raised roof, new lighting configuration, and changes in the compartment dimentions.

    I don't want to sound like a jerk. But the location of the doghouse, the raised roof, and the new lights aren't ground breaking or unique. Sure, it might be new for FDNY, but it sounds just like many other trucks used in many other cities. Is there anything new or unique to the truck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I don't want to sound like a jerk. But the location of the doghouse, the raised roof, and the new lights aren't ground breaking or unique. Sure, it might be new for FDNY, but it sounds just like many other trucks used in many other cities. Is there anything new or unique to the truck?
    All im saying is that it's new to FDNY, making it a new generation of truck to them.

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    FDNY had split tilt Seagrave apparatus delivered back in the mid 90's for the towers, sticks and engines. The towers had the single front jacks.

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    The scrub area on these must be signifigantly deminished from what we had with the old rigs.

    The cab has gone from open jump seats to a cab, to this raised roof...if the LCC can't get the angle away from the building on a tight block, this will along with that raised box midway back for storage will signifigantly inhibit its ability to hit areas past the cab and low areas at an angle away to the side.

    We'll see how it works out.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by WestTac1 View Post
    PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD AT THIS TIME

    Seth
    OK, want to clue us in? Why would this thread be removed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    The scrub area on these must be signifigantly deminished from what we had with the old rigs.
    I was surprised to see an FDNY raised roof MM for just that reason. Unless you're out West with large urban planned streets I can't see putting such a restriction on the aerial, and for what? This maybe one of the few things I give some credit to Sutphen on, at least their raised roofs are angle cut to reduce some of this loss.

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    OK after some digging I found some more of the same shop pics on another site. It seems that not only is the cab a raised roof, but on the rear of it, there's a spot light sticking up on each side and a diamondplate box in the middle that raises further impedes any over the cab ops. An odd development for FDNY whose apparatus normally seem to be all about tactical functionality. Maybe they determined this was not a significant factor in NYC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    OK after some digging I found some more of the same shop pics on another site. It seems that not only is the cab a raised roof, but on the rear of it, there's a spot light sticking up on each side and a diamondplate box in the middle that raises further impedes any over the cab ops. An odd development for FDNY whose apparatus normally seem to be all about tactical functionality. Maybe they determined this was not a significant factor in NYC?

    Over the cab ops are very limited no matter what roof, lights or boxes you have due to the cab avoidance safety system that stops rotation of the turntable at a certain distance from the cab. You have to get the cab out of the way during placement...bottom line.

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by htfdc102 View Post
    Over the cab ops are very limited no matter what roof, lights or boxes you have due to the cab avoidance safety system that stops rotation of the turntable at a certain distance from the cab. You have to get the cab out of the way during placement...bottom line.
    Cab avoidance system? What's that! Kidding, we have the damn thing on our tower and it will be shut off on the next dealer service trip.

    Not all towers are created equal. While some avoidance systems allow you to get close, most are set on distant limits to ensure the builder won't be blamed for a operator error. I'm willing to bet FDNY doesn't have a shut-down/stoppage avoidance system? Though I'm not certain of that.

    Proper positioning is key, as noted, but as I said, not all MM's are created equal. We found a significant discrepancy between builders in the over the cab angles. And yes, the lower you can get over the cab, the more total scrub area you have. So, what happens when you can't turn the cab far enough? You hope you can operate as low over the cab as you can to get those last few windows...

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    Question Raised Cab Roofs

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Cab avoidance system? And yes, the lower you can get over the cab, the more total scrub area you have. So, what happens when you can't turn the cab far enough? You hope you can operate as low over the cab as you can to get those last few windows...
    It must not worry many rear mount aerial buyers. Many I have seen have raised cab roofs further hurting operating envelop off the front.
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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    It must not worry many rear mount aerial buyers. Many I have seen have raised cab roofs further hurting operating envelop off the front.
    Usually with a rear mount, the aerial is at or near the level of a flat roof cab so it can be operated over the cab at parallel or near parallel to the ground. The midmounts generally have the aerial mounted lower so the top rail of the aerial is at the same level or slightly higher than the cab roof, while the bottom rail/pivot point is well below the roof line of the cab. The raised roof will hurt a rear mount aerial in working over the cab, but not to the same degree. Also since a mid mount's turn table is closer to the cab it'll have to be at a steeper angle to clear the cab than a rear mount.


    The midmount you posted probably can't go below 50 degrees off the front due to that massive cab. That cab probably took up 100+ degrees off the useful (in most situations) rotation of the aerial.
    Last edited by nameless; 02-03-2010 at 11:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by htfdc102 View Post
    Over the cab ops are very limited no matter what roof, lights or boxes you have due to the cab avoidance safety system that stops rotation of the turntable at a certain distance from the cab. You have to get the cab out of the way during placement...bottom line.
    Some of you are forgetting we aren't talking about Pigsnuckle, AR. This is NYC...and sometimes circumstances make it difficult to do what you are suggesting which is why we formerly desired rigs that were very forgiving with less than ideal placement.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-Unless it comes on the new rigs the TLs we have don't have this "avoidance" system you are talking about. I've seen my share of cabs dented and crushed. I know the truckies in my house are a bit skeptical of the new arangement....we shall see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Cab avoidance system? What's that! Kidding, we have the damn thing on our tower and it will be shut off on the next dealer service trip.

    So, what happens when you can't turn the cab far enough? You hope you can operate as low over the cab as you can to get those last few windows...
    Don't know many dealers that would do that unless you sign off and then if you do problems arise warranty issues, liabilty...not worth it... if you can't get to the last couple windows because of the cab then do it the old fashion way...ground ladders, all depts have them and there are still a few that know how to use them. Remeber you key word in the sentence above...LOW that means probably 2nd floor if your cab would be getting in the way....correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    It must not worry many rear mount aerial buyers. Many I have seen have raised cab roofs further hurting operating envelop off the front.
    It can easily be seen by going to any fire appratus show or dealer that most Departments aren't all that concerned with tactical proficency when desgining their rigs.

    Double parked cars, tight blocks...other obstacles...etc. all are problems in NYC that you don't see on the standard street in the rest of the USA. What we have for main aterial Avenues placed occasionaly through the grid with massive appartment buildings lining all sides, People in Sunny Acres, CA have as the standard width street in their subdivision with 1 and two story houses all with more than sufficent off street parking for buildings 3 times their current size and occupancy!

    They've made these rigs wider (2inches) which to you seems like nothing...but often enough it can be a game of inches in getting the jacks down (which is why the plates piviot to allow it to pass a car and then go flat when near the ground)

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by htfdc102 View Post
    Don't know many dealers that would do that unless you sign off and then if you do problems arise warranty issues, liabilty...not worth it... if you can't get to the last couple windows because of the cab then do it the old fashion way...ground ladders, all depts have them and there are still a few that know how to use them. Remeber you key word in the sentence above...LOW that means probably 2nd floor if your cab would be getting in the way....correct?
    Have you ever used a Seagrave TL and seen at what angle the cab on the old rigs interferes with the boom? It isn't the 2nd floor that I can tell you.

    Also remember portable ladders aren't aways a viable or reasonable alternative due to obstructions Awnings...etc.

    Originally it covered when "optimally" placed which included at 15 degrees from the center line 7750 sq ft. That scrub area can't be improved with the current design...we'll see when they update Ladders VI.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by htfdc102 View Post
    Don't know many dealers that would do that unless you sign off and then if you do problems arise warranty issues, liabilty...not worth it... if you can't get to the last couple windows because of the cab then do it the old fashion way...ground ladders, all depts have them and there are still a few that know how to use them.
    First, I don't care if you buy a raised roof or not, not my problem. The facts are the facts, the more obstacles the less scrub area, the less scrub area, the less operational envelope, less envelope equal less effective than another.

    Second, all the builders we dealt with buying our MM tower (w/o a raised roof) listed the cab avoidance as an option. Basically on ours we clearly stated we did not want it, but as was explained to us, the difference between having it or not is a computer execution order, all trucks from LTI with the cab/body warning system have the system. If we had requested it, we likely would have paid for it! As it was delivered with it, it was left in the "on" position during the training period, then basically not shut off as it was "forgotten". And the operational parameters are far worse than they need to be, which may be the builder, not all systems.

    Lastly, while ground ladders are nice, they take more personnel and manpower to actually bring a victims down so in cases of multiple rescues, the bucket can be a "force multiplier". Also it's not as easy to use a 1000 gpm stream from the tip of a ground ladder.

    So lets hear the converse argument: What are the advantages of the raised roof cab?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Lastly, while ground ladders are nice, they take more personnel and manpower to actually bring a victims down so in cases of multiple rescues, the bucket can be a "force multiplier". Also it's not as easy to use a 1000 gpm stream from the tip of a ground ladder.
    That is one of the major pro's of a platform. The more you do to limit the scrub area of the platform, the more you do to diminish one of the platform's greatest assets.


    Raised cabs are a pure comfort option. All you have to do is hunch over a little while in the cab of a flat roof. and honestly, how much time do you spend standing in the back?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    That is one of the major pro's of a platform. The more you do to limit the scrub area of the platform, the more you do to diminish one of the platform's greatest assets.


    Raised cabs are a pure comfort option. All you have to do is hunch over a little while in the cab of a flat roof. and honestly, how much time do you spend standing in the back?
    That's what I'm thinking, but who knows, maybe we overlooked some great attribute that warrants limiting the scrub area? Oh yeah, I know, Spartan offers the 10" raised roof for "free".

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    maybe the NY Knicks staff one of the truck companies between games and were complaining about head room.

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