1. #1
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    Default CAFS roundtable questions

    Hello to all,

    I have been asked to moderate two CAFS round tables discussions at the upcoming CAFS symposium in Glendale Arizona February 18-20. The first roundtable discussion is mostly geared towards questions appropriate to ask equipment manufactures OEM, components and equipment . With the second roundtable being mostly CAFS user based .
    I am looking to establish questions appropriate to the above groups. So if you have questions or have ideas on talking points that you think would be beneficial for others to here please feel free to post them.

    Thanks

    SBLGFD

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBLGFD View Post
    Hello to all,

    I have been asked to moderate two CAFS round tables discussions at the upcoming CAFS symposium in Glendale Arizona February 18-20. The first roundtable discussion is mostly geared towards questions appropriate to ask equipment manufactures OEM, components and equipment . With the second roundtable being mostly CAFS user based .
    I am looking to establish questions appropriate to the above groups. So if you have questions or have ideas on talking points that you think would be beneficial for others to here please feel free to post them.

    Thanks

    SBLGFD
    Maybe overly simplistic, but I was always asked these:

    1.) How much more maintenance should I anticipate with a CAFS system, as well as additional cost per year for that maintenance over a non-CAFS engine?

    2.) What is the advantage/disadvantage of using a PTO driven compressor vs. a compressor driven with the pump's drivehaft?

    3.) Should we have the system set up so that the foam system automatically engages when the pump is engaged?

    Is this the kind of thing you're looking for? I know I have more I just need to think about it some...
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    For the manufactures
    Will anyone be working on actual fire flow calculation for Cafs as opposed to water yes we know big fire big water but with the air in the lines we do limit the actual water that we can flow.
    We run a 3-1 mix so there is a little more water and less air are there any plans compare 2-1 Vs 3-1 in effectiveness.
    Are any studies being done to show the effectiveness of Cafs in a rural setting for ISO crediting.
    Are any studies being done to show reduced water smoke fire damage in both Rural and city settings.
    For the User
    What strategies have you used to train your people
    What have you done to Train Mutual aid personnel on Cafs
    What have you done to show your communities the benefit of Cafs
    How has the use of Cafs Changed the way you fight fires including Water supply, Tactics, and line selection?
    Do you have procedures in place for personnel in case of equipment failure.
    Do you have a comprehensive maintenance program and has your dealer helped you put into place.

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    Default Cafs

    http://www.waterousco.com/pdf/brochu...2011-18-09.pdf
    Amazing what you can find with Google.

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    My biggest issue....

    NOZZLES. Nozzles designed for CAF that do not account for when the compressor craps. a 3/8" ball shutoff wont give you a useful stream on a 1 3/4" handline with plain water.

    So the question is..."When purchasing a nozzle for CAFS use, what factors go into the decision?"

    Also,

    When purchasing pumps with CAF systems, are you specifying discharge relief valves with or in place of automatic pressure governors?" Since the systems seem to be more appropriately run in RPM mode, how are end users protecting handlines from pressure surges. If both are specified, are end users programming governors to default to RPM mode on start up?

    With fire flow requirements still being the same, why is the trend to smaller booster tanks becoming so prevalent with CAFS pumpers?

    With basic principles of class B foam blanket effectiveness in mind, are departments requiring class B foam to be applied "wet" (heavy) for a secure foam blanket?

    Do any departments have a policy that requires that B foams still be applied with nozzle aspirating (even though they have a CAF system)?

    What are departments expierencing with the performance of INTERIOS fire streams using CAFS compared to plain water in terms of fire knockdown, reach, penetration and ability to breach drywall and similar type materials?

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    Ball shut off with 15/16" smoothbore tip. Fog tip in the engineer's compartment if makes you feel better.

    Foam pump for Cl A (for CAFS) is substantially different than what is needed to flow CL B. If you need Cl B shut off the CAFS entirely (the air isn't going to help you). Attach your choice of eductor (Scotty, inline, Feecon etc) and drag out barrels of Ar-Afff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Ball shut off with 15/16" smoothbore tip. Fog tip in the engineer's compartment if makes you feel better.

    Foam pump for Cl A (for CAFS) is substantially different than what is needed to flow CL B. If you need Cl B shut off the CAFS entirely (the air isn't going to help you). Attach your choice of eductor (Scotty, inline, Feecon etc) and drag out barrels of Ar-Afff.
    What do you propose to all the end users with dual tank systems using 5GPM and similar type foam injection pumps that are, in fact, designed for class B foams. Just because it isnt the way you would use it doesnt mean it isnt out there being used (or misused).

    Also, what do you tell all the end users that were told the best nozzle was a plain ball valve with no tip. It doesnt matter so much to me because we don't have a CAF system. It matters to me as an instructor when the questions come up and someone wants input.
    Last edited by MG3610; 02-09-2010 at 09:08 PM.

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    I did a lot of research before we bought a Waterous PTO CAFS for our pumper tanker. Advise from several sources was 15/16" tip on a shutoff as best quality foam (and low equipment cost). Yes many wildland guys just use a shut off.

    Tested both, several tips sizes, TFT and Elkhart foam nozzles. Decided the shutoff with 15/16" tip was best performer, as advised. Can change to a fog tip if needed.

    As I'm sure you know a Cl B system need a high performance foam pump with 1" lines. Like a FoamPro 3000 series or Waterous Advantus 3. A very expensive option that gains you nothing with the CAFS system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    I did a lot of research before we bought a Waterous PTO CAFS for our pumper tanker. Advise from several sources was 15/16" tip on a shutoff as best quality foam (and low equipment cost). Yes many wildland guys just use a shut off.

    Tested both, several tips sizes, TFT and Elkhart foam nozzles. Decided the shutoff with 15/16" tip was best performer, as advised. Can change to a fog tip if needed.

    As I'm sure you know a Cl B system need a high performance foam pump with 1" lines. Like a FoamPro 3000 series or Waterous Advantus 3. A very expensive option that gains you nothing with the CAFS system.
    I hear where you are coming from, but the point was to have discussion at a roundtable for people using the systems to foster dialogue and perhaps change some operating tactics etc. Thats how I understood it, at least. So, with that in mind, I threw out my questions and points. Yours are also good to add.

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    Default a little late

    i see I'm a little late to this dance! but what are some things that make cafs worth the money? we talked about putting it on the rescue pumper we bought in 06 but decided against mainly due to cost. i have only seen it work a few times with straight bore nozzles and wasn't impressed. i like my fog nozzles. i don't know much about it.

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    Bowie VFD Co 43.

    Tower 43 is a running 1991 Mack CF (rehab'd in 2003) Formerly L107 and L33 of FDNY. Was destroyed in 9/11 by the WTC collapse, bought and rebuilt. Still in service with a 95' Aerialscope Midmount

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBLGFD View Post
    Hello to all,

    I have been asked to moderate two CAFS round tables discussions at the upcoming CAFS symposium in Glendale Arizona February 18-20. The first roundtable discussion is mostly geared towards questions appropriate to ask equipment manufactures OEM, components and equipment . With the second roundtable being mostly CAFS user based .
    I am looking to establish questions appropriate to the above groups. So if you have questions or have ideas on talking points that you think would be beneficial for others to here please feel free to post them.

    Thanks

    SBLGFD
    SBLGFD

    Check your dates. I think it should be Feb. 3-5 this year.

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    This was for last years round table

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