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    Default Guess it's better than getting laid off


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    The result for the FD will be the same. Less FF's. I can fully appreciate the need for manpower in the DOC. But stripping from the FD will just make both departments be inadequately staffed.

    So who wants to be there is no less than a handful of municipal employees that serve no purpose whatsoever and their job is totally meaningless and pointless... that still have a job.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I worked as a Sheriff's deputy for several years, and I still see from time to time persons I have arrested or investigated. It have gotten tense on occasion.
    This will be a bad thing in the long run I believe. You are on shift and are dispatched to a call. Someone you dealt with at the Sally port is on scene, and he recognizes you. Whether you did that person wrong or not he takes issue with you. You could be in a very bad position. 1 or 2 fire fighters and a person, and maybe his\her friends, with attitude. This could get ugly to say the least.

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    The FD will still be short staffed but at least the laid off FF's won't be in the unemployment line, at least for now. I bet they are not happy about it but at least they still have a paycheck.
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    The fire fighter positions are going to be cut either way. Difference is, they will have jobs instead of being unemployed. This is a win win for all. The fire fighters get jobs, the residents don't have a tax increase, and the city balances its budget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The fire fighter positions are going to be cut either way. Difference is, they will have jobs instead of being unemployed. This is a win win for all. The fire fighters get jobs, the residents don't have a tax increase, and the city balances its budget.
    Since you aren't a firefighter, its not surprising you don't understand this concept. The point is it leaves the FD short staffed because the town is too cheap and lazy to do what is right. It is not win-win. They now have a short-staffed FD and a short staffed DOC. Its lose-lose.

    But you'll never understand anyway.
    Last edited by nmfire; 02-06-2010 at 11:06 AM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    The fire fighter positions are going to be cut either way. Difference is, they will have jobs instead of being unemployed. This is a win win for all. The fire fighters get jobs, the residents don't have a tax increase, and the city balances its budget.
    You have never work in a DU (Detention Unit). I would not be surprised if the fire fighters took the lay off rather than work in a DU.

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    I would take the unemployment over corrections for sure .. besides unemployment is like 1 1/2 years now anyways.

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    Am I misunderstanding this thread? The City wants the fire fighters to double as CO, or do they want them to make a lateral transfer from FD to the DU? I am under the impression they want them to double as FF\CO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    Am I misunderstanding this thread? The City wants the fire fighters to double as CO, or do they want them to make a lateral transfer from FD to the DU? I am under the impression they want them to double as FF\CO.
    No FF just detention deputies ..... and there is a sign a few towns over @ firehouse asking for volunteers for this same COUNTY FD. Sweet .... ?? i mean why pay people when we can have volunteers who may or may not show up ...... (as long as its not my house they hope)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Since you aren't a firefighter, its not surprising you don't understand this concept. The point is it leaves the FD short staffed because the town is too cheap and lazy to do what is right. It is not win-win. They now have a short-staffed FD and a short staffed DOC. Its lose-lose.

    But you'll never understand anyway.
    Since you aren't an administrator, councilman, mayor, or accountant I wouldn't expect you to understand that staffing decisions are driven by dollars and nothing else. [sarcasm]The only reason they are short staffed is because they are too lazy to actually work[/sarcasm] See how silly that sounds. Most administrators would love nothing more than to have 100 firefighters per 1000 people. But they understand that when the money isn't coming in then there is none to pay out. Has nothing to so with being cheap.

    I guess you would prefer they lose their jobs and be unemployed. And then have the city go through the entire hiring process with background checks and the whole 9 yards.

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    So rather than fixing their budget, you think it is better to just cut the positions. Go *&$# yourself. I hope you lose your job because your employer decides they don't feel like funding your position anymore.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    So rather than fixing their budget, you think it is better to just cut the positions. Go *&$# yourself. I hope you lose your job because your employer decides they don't feel like funding your position anymore.
    Fixing their budget sounds like a great idea. Maybe you can go over there and with your vast knowledge, show them where they can find all this waste is. Then you can go on and show cities nationwide where their problems are. Ever hear of reduced revenues?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Since you aren't an administrator, councilman, mayor, or accountant I wouldn't expect you to understand that staffing decisions are driven by dollars and nothing else.
    I am not an accountant by I have been in on negotiations and i can tell you from first hand experience dollars are not what motivates a politician. Votes do. If they can cut meat and potato services (FF\EMS\LE)to keep voters happy and bought off that will motivate them. Nothing like a high visibility
    flower bed or adding Christmas lights to down town to buy votes.
    Many times it does not work but then it only takes one time. How about cutting administrative staffing instead. You could pay 2 fire fighters on the salary of one mayors aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Most administrators would love nothing more than to have 100 firefighters per 1000 people. But they understand that when the money isn't coming in then there is none to pay out. Has nothing to so with being cheap.
    No they would not. If they would we would not need organizations like ISO. If they (politicians) had there way they would take J. Q. Grasscutter, give him gear and a pager and have him run calls between yards.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I guess you would prefer they lose their jobs and be unemployed. And then have the city go through the entire hiring process with background checks and the whole 9 yards.
    I would not. I would like to see some middle management jobs that never seem to be cut instead of jobs that would result in loss of property and life.
    Were you not the one who said security clearance did not transfer from job to job. Did you not say it was specific to each hire? I think I remember that correctly. Could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Fixing their budget sounds like a great idea. Maybe you can go over there and with your vast knowledge, show them where they can find all this waste is. Then you can go on and show cities nationwide where their problems are.
    I can. When I was active with my union I show them where we could cut, saving monies for the FD and still have surplus. The savings are there, but the politicians would rather citizen have reduced FF\EMS\LE than give up there political grease.

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Ever hear of reduced revenues?
    Sarcasm can go both ways. Simple reduction of wasteful spending can solve most problems. One example we proposed was simply to change out the street light bulbs. You laugh? We were using 225w bulbs and to change to 175w would have saved the city $240,000+- a year in electricity. We had many proposed changes and after the smoke cleared (about 4 years later) they were implemented and that was estimated to save 2,100,000. It was off the radar and the union did not get credit but I know it will and did work.
    There is much that can be done if you use common sense and you park egos at the door. Trouble is most politicians will not go with any idea they cannot claim credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    So rather than fixing their budget, you think it is better to just cut the positions. Go *&$# yourself. I hope you lose your job because your employer decides they don't feel like funding your position anymore.
    How do you fix the budget? Increase revenues or cut spending. have at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    I am not an accountant by I have been in on negotiations and i can tell you from first hand experience dollars are not what motivates a politician. Votes do. If they can cut meat and potato services (FF\EMS\LE)to keep voters happy and bought off that will motivate them. Nothing like a high visibility
    flower bed or adding Christmas lights to down town to buy votes.
    Many times it does not work but then it only takes one time. How about cutting administrative staffing instead. You could pay 2 fire fighters on the salary of one mayors aid.
    Exactly. The public votes for the person who they believe is best representing them. If the public is motivated by dollars then the politician does what they can to cut that spending. If the politician gets votes because he puts up Christmas lights then that is what the public wants. Remember, it isn't about what you want but what the public wants.

    No they would not. If they would we would not need organizations like ISO. If they (politicians) had there way they would take J. Q. Grasscutter, give him gear and a pager and have him run calls between yards.
    You should talk to nozzlehead, because that is exactly what he thinks.

    I would not. I would like to see some middle management jobs that never seem to be cut instead of jobs that would result in loss of property and life.
    Were you not the one who said security clearance did not transfer from job to job. Did you not say it was specific to each hire? I think I remember that correctly. Could be wrong.
    Middle management, you mean Captains, Lieutenants, and battalion chiefs???

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Exactly. The public votes for the person who they believe is best representing them. If the public is motivated by dollars then the politician does what they can to cut that spending. If the politician gets votes because he puts up Christmas lights then that is what the public wants. Remember, it isn't about what you want but what the public wants.
    It is not what the people want it is what is in the communities best interest. Safety before folly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    You should talk to nozzlehead, because that is exactly what he thinks.
    Prey tell why? I make informed decisions based on what I learn not on others opinions. If we think alike maybe it is because he evaluated the information at hand and came to a similar conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Middle management, you mean Captains, Lieutenants, and battalion chiefs???
    If the system is over burden with Captains, Lieutenants, and Chiefs I would see no reason not eliminate them. Show me one department that is not short of manpower. I cannot address the problem in the community this tread was directed at, but in my community I see one persons drive a truck while 4 cut grass, could not the lawnmower operator drive the truck back to the lot. When a Engine arrives on scene the captain does not sit on the truck and supervise. He becomes a fire fighter and participates in putting the fire out.
    When I go down to city hall, about 3 times a month, I see dozens of people doing absolutely nothing. Why not eliminate them. For every lawyer you fire you could put 3 FF\EMT\LE on the job. There are dozens of examples but I think you know this. You simply choose advocate for men and women loosing their job for nothing more than the pleasure of inciting members of this forum. If you cannot see fire fighters are more important than grass cutter, EMTs more important than spending money on street lights and banner, and\or LE more important than picking up trash and planting flowers, then you have no concept of what our job really is.
    Last edited by Acklan; 02-08-2010 at 01:52 AM. Reason: Spelling and word correction.

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    Hey ScareCrow...

    Thanks for once agian proving that:

    A) You aren't a firefighter.

    B) You haven't got a clue what it means to be a firefighter.

    C) That being a firefighter isn't any more interchangeable with being a corrections officer than being an IT guy is interchangeable with cleaning toilets. No matter how full of crap you are.

    D) If a guy wanted to be a low level corrections officer he would have applied for that job.

    E) This is no gift, it is a slap in the face to those firefighters asking to take those jobs, and another one to the guys who will now be running short.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Its not an optimal situation but from the article, it sounds like the FF are facing layoffs. Possibly they can negotiate with the county to maintain a level of training and certs and be first in line for rehire. for those of you spouting off about how its a lower class of job, possibly true but try feeding and housing your family on pride and principles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    I can. When I was active with my union I show them where we could cut, saving monies for the FD and still have surplus. The savings are there, but the politicians would rather citizen have reduced FF\EMS\LE than give up there political grease.



    Sarcasm can go both ways. Simple reduction of wasteful spending can solve most problems. One example we proposed was simply to change out the street light bulbs. You laugh? We were using 225w bulbs and to change to 175w would have saved the city $240,000+- a year in electricity. We had many proposed changes and after the smoke cleared (about 4 years later) they were implemented and that was estimated to save 2,100,000. It was off the radar and the union did not get credit but I know it will and did work.
    There is much that can be done if you use common sense and you park egos at the door. Trouble is most politicians will not go with any idea they cannot claim credit.
    I totally agree with you if there is that much blatant waste in the city administration. Problem is, that in many areas, this waste has been identified and cut already. There are cities that have experienced a 25 to 30% drop in tax revenue. There are going to be cuts right across the board. On these forums, cutting waste to some of these dolts means closing libraries, swimming pools, not maintaining parks as long as we can keep FF jobs. Never mind the rhetoric about public safety, its about protecting jobs. The entire city will decide on what they value most. Thats why its called a democracy.
    Last edited by BryanLoader; 02-08-2010 at 05:15 AM.

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    The entire city will decide on what they value most. Thats why its called a democracy.
    When a tragedy occurs... they should have themselves to blame.... of course, the blame will go to the FD.

    In a small town about a half hour drive away, An override to keep the FD staffed 24/7 was rejected. They did, however, fund trash pickup.

    A woman almost died in a fire because the firehouse was closed. She was rescued by an off duty captain who entered the structure without any ppe or hoseline . He happened to be driving by and saw the fire. The woman was burned over 65% of her body.

    One of the local TV stations did a story of response times, this community went from an average response time of 4 minutes with 24/7 staffing to 11 minutes, relying on callbacks.

    Of course, the people in that town are up in arms... for now.
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    [QUOTE=BryanLoader;1144142]Never mind the rhetoric about public safety, its about protecting jobs.[/b]

    I fail to see the rhetoric. Reducing staffing whether career or volunteer increases the risk of loss of life, either in EMS or fire related calls. This is well documented. I know some feel strongly against ISO, but in it's original intent the insurance companies knew certain levels of staffing, stations, equipment,... resulted in lower insurance pay outs. This was not out the goodness of their hearts, but the results were the same. A safer community.

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    The entire city will decide on what they value most. Thats why its called a democracy.
    We do not live in a democracy, we live in a representative republic. The difference is, it is not 51%rules. With properly elected representatives The good of the community is done, not "majority rule". Sad to say first an paramount job of a politician seems to get re-elected, not serve the people.
    Last edited by Acklan; 02-08-2010 at 09:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Never mind the rhetoric about public safety, its about protecting jobs.[/b]
    I fail to see the rhetoric. Reducing staffing whether career or volunteer increases the risk of loss of life, either in EMS or fire related calls. This is well documented. I know some feel strongly against ISO, but in it's original intent the insurance companies knew certain levels of staffing, stations, equipment,... resulted in lower insurance pay outs. This was not out the goodness of their hearts, but the results were the same. A safer community.

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    The entire city will decide on what they value most. Thats why its called a democracy.
    We do not live in a democracy, we live in a representative republic. The difference is in a democracy 51% rules, in a republic the politicians are suppose to weight out what is best for the community. With properly elected representatives the good of the community is done, not "majority rule". Sad to say the first and paramount job of a politician seems to get re-elected, not serve the people.

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    Posted by Acklan
    Sad to say the first and paramount job of a politician seems to get re-elected, not serve the people.
    Amen, Brother, amen.

    The second job is loyalty to their party... even if their version of how the city, town, county, state or country should be run is wrong, which perpetuates paramount rule #1.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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