Leather 880???

[The52nd]

Not surprising since it's not a fire helmet; it's a replica helmet meant to hang on a wall. Don't be an idiot: Don't wear a toy "presentation" helmet to a fire.

Clearly your position on this helmet is understood, but you should stop propagandizing this issue. Neither Cairns, nor MSA have ever been in the "toy" business the G5a is not a toy. What it is, is a helmet based on the original design that is neither NFPA nor OSHA compliant. Having held, and thoroughly looked them over I can tell you there is nothing toy like about them.

Can you tell us please, what is it that makes this a non-NFPA helmet? We know a few things; NFPA requires certain eye protection, and ear flaps, which this helmet doesn't have. We also know that NFPA doesn't require an impact liner, as other NFPA helmets don't have them. NFPA likes the four point suspension, which the G5a has. But what about the ratchet? NFPA, or just a manufacturers solution to the high center of gravity?

To be clear, I'm not endorsing the G5a, and I don't wear one, but I think as a matter of discussion having the real issues with this lid hashed out could be beneficial. So, why is it not NFPA certified?

[DeputyMarshal]

It's not certified by anyone. It meets no standard aside from how it looks. Even its manufacturer clearly states that it's not for fire service use. Some argue that it's the same as an N5 (which hasn't met any standard in quite some time either) but is it the same? Who knows? The manufacturer isn't saying. Just because it looks like an N5 doesn't mean it's built to the same standard or with the same materials or with the same attention to quality control.

It's a display helmet. That's all it will ever be good for.

[The52nd]

It's not certified by anyone. It meets no standard aside from how it looks. Even its manufacturer clearly states that it's not for fire service use. Some argue that it's the same as an N5 (which hasn't met any standard in quite some time either) but is it the same? Who knows? The manufacturer isn't saying. Just because it looks like an N5 doesn't mean it's built to the same standard or with the same materials or with the same attention to quality control.

So what you're saying is, you don't know. While the manufacturer doesn't recommend it for firefighting, and calls it a "presentation" helmet, it could be the same as the N5.

Let's try this; apply the same question in my previous post to the N5. If we can do this it'll she'd some light on helmet issue.

[DeputyMarshal]

So what you're saying is, you don't know. While the manufacturer doesn't recommend it for firefighting, and calls it a "presentation" helmet, it could be the same as the N5.

No, what I'm saying is that I do know that it meets no recognized standard at all -- not even the manufacturer's own standard for fire helmets. It could be the same as an N5 or it might not be. Ignoring for a moment that the N5 doesn't meet any modern standards anyway, there's no particularly compelling reason to believe the G5A is even built to the same standards as the N5 was and some very good reasons to suggest that is probably isn't.

Let's try this; apply the same question in my previous post to the N5. If we can do this it'll she'd some light on helmet issue.

It's a separate issue from the G5A which was never approved by anyone for firefighting use. The N5 has the virtue of having once been an acceptable helmet but, let's face it, it's long since obsolete. It doesn't meet any industry standard and hasn't for years. What else is there to know? It's last incarnations were closer to modern standards but still fall short. The level of protection it provides is objectively less than industry standards.

[The52nd]

It's last incarnations were closer to modern standards but still fall short. The level of protection it provides is objectively less than industry standards.

I guess this is what it comes down to, and what I've been trying to find out. If you know, where has it fallen short of modern standards? Obviously with eye and ear protection, but where else? I think a comparative would be interesting, and others might like to know.

[FyredUp]

Frankly, I don't give a damn if someone wants to wear a G5 helmet, and they make that less than educated choice on their own, for themselves. What I will not leave unquestioned is anyone recommending that helmet for firefighting use that even MSA/Casirns says is a PRESENTATION helmet not for firefighting use. It is not approved by either NFPA or OSHA, and never has been.

[giweff]

Not surprising since it's not a fire helmet; it's a replica helmet meant to hang on a wall. Don't be an idiot: Don't wear a toy "presentation" helmet to a fire.

Your a real peace of work calling me an idiot over something posted two years ago. Next time you open you big mouth you should know the facts. I am a pretty nice guy and would have answered your questions if you would have asked. FACTS: First off I never said I wore a G5A. 2nd I have tried on all of the leathers that are out there even a older 5a i have in my collection so I was just answering a question. Third The only leather helmet i have ever worn at work is a NFPA Phenix. And that was at my Part time job before, now i just wear what the city Gave me a 1010. The only thing i will buy from here on out is leather boots b/c we don't issue them and I hate rubbers. Next time Deputy ask some questions before you go calling names and acting like you KNOW IT ALL.

[The52nd]

Frankly, I don't give a damn if someone wants to wear a G5 helmet, and they make that less than educated choice on their own, for themselves. What I will not leave unquestioned is anyone recommending that helmet for firefighting use that even MSA/Casirns says is a PRESENTATION helmet not for firefighting use. It is not approved by either NFPA or OSHA, and never has been.

Whether one cares what another wears is not the direction I've been trying to take this discussion.

There are a lot of people wearing the G5a, and lots of people who feel strongly against it. I would like to know the differences (if anyone knows) between the G5a, the N5, and the other modern helmets. I don't sit around reading NFPA publications, and don't plan on spending money on them. And while I'm like you in that I don't care what one wears on their head, I like to understand the reasoning behind the decision making. Could it be possible that the G5a is a renamed N5? What are the differences between the "old" leather and the new? Other than the NFPA sticker.

[DeputyMarshal]

Your a real peace of work calling me an idiot over something posted two years ago. Next time you open you big mouth you should know the facts.

I have the facts, thank you. And I'll give you a cookie if you can quote me calling you an idiot. Let me save you the trouble of looking: I didn't. Although, after your reply, I might consider doing so in the future.

Oh, one more thing; the word you are looking for is "you're"; not "your". The other word you are looking for is "piece"; not "peace". The next time you go off on a baseless rant you might want to consult a dictionary. Otherwise, you might come off looking like an idiot.

Have a nice day.

[DeputyMarshal]

I guess this is what it comes down to, and what I've been trying to find out. If you know, where has it fallen short of modern standards? Obviously with eye and ear protection, but where else? I think a comparative would be interesting, and others might like to know.

The place to start would be to locate a copy of the standards in place when the N5 was still compliant and the first set after it was no longer compliant. You should be able to deduce the N5's shortcomings from the different specifications and testing requirements. Another line of inquiry would be to compare the differences between the N5 and the N5A. Presumably the differences are, as you mentioned, in the ear protection, possibly the suspension/padding system, penetration resistance, and in measures of durability when wet, etc.

Short of having access to testing reports detailing where the N5 fails to meet current standards, I don't know if any more specific answer than that would be available.

[FyredUp]

Whether one cares what another wears is not the direction I've been trying to take this discussion.

There are a lot of people wearing the G5a, and lots of people who feel strongly against it. I would like to know the differences (if anyone knows) between the G5a, the N5, and the other modern helmets. I don't sit around reading NFPA publications, and don't plan on spending money on them. And while I'm like you in that I don't care what one wears on their head, I like to understand the reasoning behind the decision making. Could it be possible that the G5a is a renamed N5? What are the differences between the "old" leather and the new? Other than the NFPA sticker.

Look, it is far more simple than the long drawn out process you are turning this into. IF your department, or your state, has adopted NFPA Standards then it is clear this helmet does not meet those current standards in effect. No other part of the discussion, no emotional attachment, no it looks cool, no it is lighter, matters at all.

Personally, the money one has to lay out for ANY leather helmet is ludicrous. Particularly when you look at the fact that they off no more protection than any other NFPA approved helmet. Having said thay, if the desire for a leather helmet is so high that yu have to have one, then buy one. I would hope it would have an NFPA approval sticker on it.

[The52nd]

The place to start would be to locate a copy of the standards in place when the N5 was still compliant and the first set after it was no longer compliant. You should be able to deduce the N5's shortcomings from the different specifications and testing requirements. Another line of inquiry would be to compare the differences between the N5 and the N5A. Presumably the differences are, as you mentioned, in the ear protection, possibly the suspension/padding system, penetration resistance, and in measures of durability when wet, etc.

Short of having access to testing reports detailing where the N5 fails to meet current standards, I don't know if any more specific answer than that would be available.

Thank you, Deputy. That's a good starting point. I was hoping someone here might know that info, but it doesn't seem so. I'll have to dig through the NFPA archives, if there are any. But I'll gladly go on not knowing before I spend any money.

[The52nd]

Look, it is far more simple than the long drawn out process you are turning this into. IF your department, or your state, has adopted NFPA Standards then it is clear this helmet does not meet those current standards in effect. No other part of the discussion, no emotional attachment, no it looks cool, no it is lighter, matters at all.

Personally, the money one has to lay out for ANY leather helmet is ludicrous. Particularly when you look at the fact that they off no more protection than any other NFPA approved helmet. Having said thay, if the desire for a leather helmet is so high that yu have to have one, then buy one. I would hope it would have an NFPA approval sticker on it.

You seem to be misunderstanding my intentions. I was hoping to get info, purely for edification. The helmet battle often erupts here, so I thought getting a comparative of the helmets might shed some light on the differences for everyone. But really, what is wrong with wanting to know why something does, or doesn't meet the standard? What is wrong with wanting to know the evolution of the standards?

As for my lid; I'm in the same leather I was issued. I don't expect to ever spend my own money on one, either. When the dept sees fit to issue me a new one I'll wear it. But, no. My dept has not adopted NFPA standards.

[DeputyMarshal]

Thank you, Deputy. That's a good starting point. I was hoping someone here might know that info, but it doesn't seem so. I'll have to dig through the NFPA archives, if there are any. But I'll gladly go on not knowing before I spend any money.

Keep in mind that this isn't just an NFPA thing: There are other standards in play. Looking at NFPA standards will only tell you why it doesn't meet NFPA recommendations; you need to look at OSHA regulations as well. They still reference "the National Fire Safety and Research Office of the National Fire Prevention and Control Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce (now known as the U.S. Fire Administration), which are contained in "Model Performance Criteria for Structural Firefighters' Helmets" (August 1977)".

Have fun with the research. When you're done, I'm pretty sure you'll want to at least wear an OSHA compliant helmet if not one that's NFPA compliant.

[DeputyMarshal]

My dept has not adopted NFPA standards.

Just as a data point, don't forget that some states have adopted the NFPA helmet standard into their approved OSHA programs rather than adopting the less restrictive federal OSHA standard. (CAL/OSHA, for example, has referenced NFPA since the late '80s.)

[giweff]

I have the facts, thank you. And I'll give you a cookie if you can quote me calling you an idiot. Let me save you the trouble of looking: I didn't. Although, after your reply, I might consider doing so in the future.

Oh, one more thing; the word you are looking for is "you're"; not "your". The other word you are looking for is "piece"; not "peace". The next time you go off on a baseless rant you might want to consult a dictionary. Otherwise, you might come off looking like an idiot.

Have a nice day.

I don't want a cookie I'm trying to cut back. But thanks and I don't want to get into it with you or anyone else. I am sorry if I miss read you post maybe I thought it was implied. Since we writting in forms I sometimes don't read over what I type. So I am sorry about using the wrong words but after reading your reply I think you understood what i was saying. Anyway if you ever make it up to St. Louis we'll skip the cookie and I'll buy you a beer. Just as long as we don't talk about helmets....

[DeputyMarshal]

Anyway if you ever make it up to St. Louis we'll skip the cookie and I'll buy you a beer. Just as long as we don't talk about helmets....

It's a deal! I haven't been to St Louis in years but I recall that the beer is good there. First round's on me.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[giweff]

Well if you got the first round I got the 2nd and third. And Correct me if i am wrong i haven't been to a city that I didn't like the beer. (in the States at least) No need to say sorry I just don't like it when people get mad at each other on the forms over a difference of opions were all suppose to be brothers... And sisters to be politically correct.