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    Default SCBA advice for 2010 AFG

    Since Uncle Sam will be vacationing again today, I thought I could fit this question in between congressional calls and 1199 drops. With the 2010 AFG coming at some point, we are looking at projects we would qualify. The question I have is in regards to our current air packs. We currently have 1997 revision 2216 psi packs. They do not have HUD or RIC connections. I have asked before on this forum about the success of awarding the 1997 revision packs. My hope is that some of the extremely intelligent people on this forum can give me an idea if this could work. If so, do you focus on the lack of HUD in the masks, or lack of RIC for the chance to score better?

    Thanks!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonMNChief View Post
    Since Uncle Sam will be vacationing again today, I thought I could fit this question in between congressional calls and 1199 drops. With the 2010 AFG coming at some point, we are looking at projects we would qualify. The question I have is in regards to our current air packs. We currently have 1997 revision 2216 psi packs. They do not have HUD or RIC connections. I have asked before on this forum about the success of awarding the 1997 revision packs. My hope is that some of the extremely intelligent people on this forum can give me an idea if this could work. If so, do you focus on the lack of HUD in the masks, or lack of RIC for the chance to score better?

    Thanks!!
    First off; if this is the only project that you are looking for then go for it.

    Secondly, the age of the SCBA will come into play. Depending on when the 1997 edition SCBA were purchased they could range in age from 6-13 years old. The older they are the better the chances as the SCBA will be approaching their 15 year service life.

    Thirdly, check into whether upgrading is feasible for your SCBA & the cost. Some manufacturers will not upgrade to the 2007 standard or they have eliminated that model of SCBA for a new model meeting the 2007 standard.

    Fourthly, the amount of use will have a factor as well...more frequency of use the better the chances as well.

    What type of SCBA are you using?
    Last edited by onebugle; 02-10-2010 at 10:44 AM.

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    15 year service life. Is this for composite cylinders only, or entire SCBA?

    Where is the 15 year service life stated, NFPA, NIOSH, Manufacturer info, etc.?

    If replacing or upgrading, has anyone had success with AFG program funding units to include the Paktracker feature? (distressed F/F locating beacon system)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCCB View Post
    15 year service life. Is this for composite cylinders only, or entire SCBA?

    Where is the 15 year service life stated, NFPA, NIOSH, Manufacturer info, etc.?

    If replacing or upgrading, has anyone had success with AFG program funding units to include the Paktracker feature? (distressed F/F locating beacon system)
    Nothing per se in the NFPA except for older models that need to be retired. Typically, cylinders have a 15 year life span (check manufacturer), the SCBA are now 3 standards behind...some of the factors that will come into play with the AFG to determine funding for new SCBA.

    Yes, there have been successful grants for upgrading to include Paktracker.

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    FG cap for SCBA is sufficient to allow you to purchase with integrated Paktracker on your SCBA. Add line for additional equipment at least 1x Paktracker Locator (allow $1500).

    Perhaps of interest is that a new version of the Eagle 320 Imager is coming this year that adds all the Locator functions to the 320. Definately a great idea and worth adding to the grant. Have not heard what price for combined unit will be. You can buy a 320 for around $7500. I think limit for TI is still $10k. $10k likely will be sufficient for 320 w/Paktracker but ??? I'm not sure the correct approach for grant app maybe additional line for "add Paktracker to TI" for $2500 just to cover yourself. FG loves TI and FF locator equipment which is logical. Go for it. Scott is the only such equipment on the market that I know of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    First off; if this is the only project that you are looking for then go for it.

    Secondly, the age of the SCBA will come into play. Depending on when the 1997 edition SCBA were purchased they could range in age from 6-13 years old. The older they are the better the chances as the SCBA will be approaching their 15 year service life.

    Thirdly, check into whether upgrading is feasible for your SCBA & the cost. Some manufacturers will not upgrade to the 2007 standard or they have eliminated that model of SCBA for a new model meeting the 2007 standard.

    Fourthly, the amount of use will have a factor as well...more frequency of use the better the chances as well.

    What type of SCBA are you using?

    They are MSA, bought them in 2000. I seem to remember that the HUD was an option that was new, and we stayed away from it. We are a small vol. dept, so they are not used as much as some. We average 30 calls a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonMNChief View Post
    They are MSA, bought them in 2000. I seem to remember that the HUD was an option that was new, and we stayed away from it. We are a small vol. dept, so they are not used as much as some. We average 30 calls a year.
    The age and frequency will work against you to replace the SCBA. The only option though is to request new SCBA; as MSA will not upgrade the 1997's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    The age and frequency will work against you to replace the SCBA. The only option though is to request new SCBA; as MSA will not upgrade the 1997's.
    Onebugle, is it a good argument on our behalf that our 1997 version is not able to upgrade to the current NFPA revisions? Would that be enough to overcome the age and use? There has to be more people in the same boat. Thanks for the advice so far!

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    I noticed you are using low pressure packs. What are your neighboring/mutual aid departments using. If they are using high pressure, you could argue the need to replace based on interoperability. Just a thought.

    Kelly

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonMNChief View Post
    Onebugle, is it a good argument on our behalf that our 1997 version is not able to upgrade to the current NFPA revisions? Would that be enough to overcome the age and use? There has to be more people in the same boat. Thanks for the advice so far!
    That would be the argument amongst other issues that you may be having with the SCBA including interoperability with others. A department I worked with is in line for an award to replace their 1997 MSA. Probably older 1997's as they still had the "elephant trunks", but the fact they could not be upgraded was one of the arguments.

    It may or may not overcome those issues. Those that have older SCBA, more frequency etc. will score better than you, but you will score better than those with newer SCBA and less frequency. It could take a couple of tries before being successful.

    If you have no other needs to be met, then go for it. If you don't apply one thing is guaranteed...you will still have the same SCBA.
    Last edited by onebugle; 02-10-2010 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Medical aid call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    I noticed you are using low pressure packs. What are your neighboring/mutual aid departments using. If they are using high pressure, you could argue the need to replace based on interoperability. Just a thought.

    Kelly
    Kelly....everyone around me is running Scott and they are all low pressure.

    Thanks for the reply

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    Then the argument (and correct) is that need to go to modern high pressure equipment. Limited manpower means that 10min working air of a 2216psi is inadequate to perform your mission. Need to transition to 4500psi with 45min cylinders so you have at least 20min working time (allowing for exit at 1/4 tank).

    And need RIC fitting and integrated PASS w/HUD to get to get the benefit of modern safety equipment. If include FF locator a good additonal selling point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonMNChief View Post
    Kelly....everyone around me is running Scott and they are all low pressure.

    Thanks for the reply
    General rule of thumb, if packs are more than 10 years of age, AFG usually replaces. Remember packs tied to seated positions on apparatus, cannot exceed that. Price needs to be in the $5350-5500 range. Non-compliance with current NFPA is not a valid argument as when they were bought they were in compliance; AFG knows that they are not in compliance due to age; I mean why would you replace ones that were in compliance? Your argument is not about compliance so much as it is "repair costs", down time, leaking, aged face pieces improper harnesses, fatigue from heavy metal tanks etc.
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Anyone know if Scott will upgrade their 1997s and the approximate cost?

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