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  1. #1
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    Default ROM roll up door switches

    Is anyone having troubles with the ROM roll up door switches not working correctly when they are very cold? We have some that do all kinds of strange things when the truck is cold, and are wondering if we are the only ones. This is on two trucks from diferent manufacturers.
    Last edited by westiowacheif; 02-15-2010 at 01:34 PM. Reason: more info


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    Quote Originally Posted by westiowacheif View Post
    Is anyone having troubles with the ROM roll up door switches not working correctly when they are very cold? We have some that do all kinds of strange things when the truck is cold, and are wondering if we are the only ones.
    If you have doors that have a magnet inside the latch handle, they are known to have a problem with the magnet migrating away from the end of the handle. The fix is to pop the cap off of the end (usually the right end), draw the magnet out and use an adhesive to fix it in place. Also, some of them need to have the latch bar firmly in place after the door is closed. That is, when you close the door and the bar latches, sometimes you have to manually push the latch bar tight against the latch itself.

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    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Do your rig(s) have the V-Mux or multiplexing electrical system???

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    OK, I was waiting to see how this would shake out locally, but since you mention it: YES!

    First let me say, our service center, Toyne and ROM seem to be communicating and working to solve this issue and we're happy with what has transpired to date. Now for the issue:

    We have a multiplexed Spartan cab with ROM doors. Issues started when one door switch seemed to go this December. The switch was replaced by the dealer/Toyne/ROM(?) and was good to go, for a day or two. Then other switches seemed to start showing up as "open" when they clearly are closed. After our service man asked about the cold weather we seemed to notice it happening more frequently with other switches when he truck was out in he cold for extended periods. Though I must also note that the most common switch that showed up on the screen seemed to have an issue as it occurred while the engine was in quarters and warm as well. This switch could not be properly activated by an outside magnet as opposed to the others which shut off when the magnet was brought within 3" of the switch.

    My thought was that possibly moisture was getting into the switches causing problems only to be exacerbated by the cold when the moisture turns to ice?

    I know our service center noted another Spartan/Toyne/ROM they service was having similar issues, but also some E-One's may also be having similar issues? I think Spartan and E-One both use the V-Mux in concert with ROM so there's a few potential commonalities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    If you have doors that have a magnet inside the latch handle, they are known to have a problem with the magnet migrating away from the end of the handle. The fix is to pop the cap off of the end (usually the right end), draw the magnet out and use an adhesive to fix it in place. Also, some of them need to have the latch bar firmly in place after the door is closed. That is, when you close the door and the bar latches, sometimes you have to manually push the latch bar tight against the latch itself.
    This was the first thing we're were told to check and found not to be the case in this instance on ours. A good test is to run a shop magnet near the switch sensor in the door track to tell if the magnet or the switch in the problem. If the shop magnet doesn't shut off the lights, it's a switch or deeper issue, if it does, it's probably a dislodged magnet in the closer bar.(Thanks Rich!)
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-11-2010 at 04:10 PM.

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    Here's something interesting to note. Out of all the new Spartan/Toynes and Spartan Crimsons we've received, all with the same exact electrical systems (V-Mux) only the Spartan/Toynes have given us problems with the ROM door switches. Of the 3 Toynes, 2 have had repeated problems. One is doing it now with 2-4 switches, and they are not consistent on a daily basis.

    As PM'd, I did get with the FAE's on the one that has had the most problems. There is a consensus that there seems to be a problem with the cold weather. After the last 2 sensors/switches were replaced, they found that it happened again 8 days later while on scene in 9 degree weather. The FAE said they were on a med call, didn't open any doors, and when they went to leave, the right rear very last door showed being open when it was closed.

    I'm awaiting an email from our dealer concerning ours, and threw in if they knew anything about any of the E-Ones having the same problem. No word back yet.

    FM1

    EDIT: Thinking outside the box here. Has anyone toyed with the idea that the V-Mux system might be too sensitive to the circuit that it reads to show a door open???
    Last edited by FIREMECH1; 02-11-2010 at 06:10 PM. Reason: V-Mux issue???
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    EDIT: Thinking outside the box here. Has anyone toyed with the idea that the V-Mux system might be too sensitive to the circuit that it reads to show a door open???
    My understanding was that Toyne, Spartan, ROM and likely Akron/Weldon (V-Mux) were all talking about the issue. It seems like it would be either a switch issue or a V-Mux issue? I know that another truck delivered within a month of ours had the same issues, so I was thinking maybe a bad batch of switches, but wider spread? maybe a change in switch sealing or manufacturing?

    As I noted I had heard that possibly E-One had some similar issues arising?

    Funny thing is, right now our truck is almost exactly how we wanted it: we asked for one on/off switch for all the compartment lights (against NFPA go figure) so this would't be an issue, now we have a disconnected door alarm and flashing light. Driver's responsibility just like the old days! Of course it wil be reconnected as soon as the issue is rectified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Here's something interesting to note. Out of all the new Spartan/Toynes and Spartan Crimsons we've received, all with the same exact electrical systems (V-Mux)
    The multiplex system might be the same on both brands but I doubt they are exactly the same. There are still plenty of wires to be run and many different ways to approach the system. I am sure there are differences between the two systems.

    For instance, how did each of them sense the open door? With the ROM switch they have choices. They can split the orange wire back into the system for a 12+ signal or use the back/white striped wire to give the system an open circuit signal. Or, if the customer doesn't want indication of exactly which door is open they could just wire a Kussmaul Auto-Current into the compartment light feed and save a bunch of wire.

    Decisions like that get to be made on nearly every load. And then there is the programming............

    I still like hard wired systems. I work with computers and computerized equipment daily but prefer emergency equipment to be kept simple and reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit
    The multiplex system might be the same on both brands but I doubt they are exactly the same. There are still plenty of wires to be run and many different ways to approach the system. I am sure there are differences between the two systems.
    Actually they are wired and programmed the same, this was done to be redundant on the V-Mux systems. All the nodes minus the pump panel node (node 5) are the same and accept the same flash drive to reprogram through a laptop.

    As it is, there isn't much I don't know about the Weldon V-Mux systems.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Our Spartan/Toyne (Weldon Multiplex) has this problem. We took delivery in Nov. 09. At some point all of the ROM door switches have quit working.

    Everyone is happy with the truck minus this small but pesky issue.
    Last edited by GFPD2005; 02-12-2010 at 01:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Thinking outside the box here. Has anyone toyed with the idea that the V-Mux system might be too sensitive to the circuit that it reads to show a door open???
    While this issue persists (though thankfully the weather warmed up) we had another switch seem to "go" completely. This was on a door that commonly showed open during the cold, but was not the only one. Now this switch is not reading the magnet or the outside shop magnet. Could the issue end up killing the switch? Or is it more likely the switch is the problem and ends up dead? We'll see if another of the switches that intermittently shows open finally dies too. So far two seem to have died. The first was replaced is has been problem free since, while others still persist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFPD2005 View Post
    Everyone is happy with the truck minus this small but pesky issue.
    Ditto. All our naysayers who said "Toyne who?" are now telling everyone how great the truck is. And we're Miss December on the calendar!

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    I think the common problem is in the Vmux programming. Multiplexing can be a tricky issue with imput levels of what is being detected. Time to get out the laptops and investigate deeper.
    We have Rom doors on two trucks that are hard wired and have had no issues with the switches. The only issue we have is the build up of snow keeps the latch bars from automatically closing completely. When we get a warning light , you have to go around & check that the bars aren't being held away from closed by snow/ice buildup.

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    ^^^^ If that was true, then why don't we have problems with the Spartan/Crimsons that we have???

    We had 3 S/Crimsons delivered before the 3 S/Toynes, and 2 more S/Crimsons after that. All have the ROM doors, all have the same Weldon V-Mux systems, and the node that controls the ROM doors are programmed EXACTLY the SAME.

    To date, I haven't had a problem with any of the S/Crimsons. Maybe I need to find out why, without taking any of them OOS.

    Hard wired rigs do not have this problem, and should be left out of the conversation.

    @ RFDACM02... Are you saying you have no compartment light on/off control at the switch when using a shop magnet??? Reason I'm asking, is because when a said door is having the problem, using a strong magnet doesn't do anything to the compartment light. Yet when it is working (no alarm/warning) I can turn it on and off with a magnet. Trying to understand your definition of "dead" switch.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFPD2005
    Our Spartan/Toyne (Weldon Multiplex) has this problem. We took delivery in Nov. 09. At some point all of the ROM door switches have quit working.

    Everyone is happy with the truck minus this small but pesky issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02
    Ditto. All our naysayers who said "Toyne who?" are now telling everyone how great the truck is. And we're Miss December on the calendar!
    We went with Toyne for a very good reason. They've never let us down, and the rigs have been top notch. Even our 11 year old rigs have been for the most part, problem free.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    @ RFDACM02... Are you saying you have no compartment light on/off control at the switch when using a shop magnet??? Reason I'm asking, is because when a said door is having the problem, using a strong magnet doesn't do anything to the compartment light. Yet when it is working (no alarm/warning) I can turn it on and off with a magnet. Trying to understand your definition of "dead" switch.

    FM1
    I think maybe I haven't tried one possible scenario. I have not taken the shop magnet to the area of the bar grip magnet while the problem was being observed. With the very first one we opened the cabinet door and then applied the magnet and the system worked. It was like the opening and closing of the compartment door broke that cycle of issue. Of course now that I think about it, it was only the one door we tried this on, and replacing that switch seems to have corrected the issue for that door, it's not on the list of ones that show up now.

    What I meant by "dead switch" was that it has no variation, it just doesn't show closed at all any more. Many of the compartments that show"open" when the "cold" issue was observed were intermittent, flashed/blinked, stayed on for a few minutes, sometimes would return after restarting-sometime cleared. One of the switches (once we started really paying attention to all(most) the minute details) started out as one of the ones that was intermittent and became "dead". Still others are intermittent right now. On the "dead" switch the shop magnet has no effect and is locked in the "open" position.

    I think I need to have the folks who see the issue again, put the shop magnet near the offending switch while the door remains closed to see if it overcomes the issue? As I noted I have tried this on one, but we feel that one is now completely "dead".

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    We went with Toyne for a very good reason. They've never let us down, and the rigs have been top notch. Even our 11 year old rigs have been for the most part, problem free.

    FM1
    I'm not saying it can't be a Toyne issue, maybe the OP could tell us who built his truck? Pretty good chance it's Toyne looking at his screen name. I'm just pleased with the process and fact finding we've had on this and any other minor issues. I can say with certainty that other builders trucks we own have not been nearly as good to deal with on issues.We didn't expect Toyne or anyone else to build a 100% problem free truck, so this is the type of service after the sale that is so important to look at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    ^^^^ If that was true, then why don't we have problems with the Spartan/Crimsons that we have???

    We had 3 S/Crimsons delivered before the 3 S/Toynes, and 2 more S/Crimsons after that. All have the ROM doors, all have the same Weldon V-Mux systems, and the node that controls the ROM doors are programmed EXACTLY the SAME.

    To date, I haven't had a problem with any of the S/Crimsons. Maybe I need to find out why, without taking any of them OOS.

    Hard wired rigs do not have this problem, and should be left out of the conversation.

    FM1
    actually the original poster didn't specify whether they had a multiplex or a hard wire system. Was pointing out that our hard wire systems haven't been experiencing problem.

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    Here's a little bit of history from the trucking industry. This excerpt was written by my good friend Tom Berg of Heavy Duty Trucking magazine several years ago. I hope I'm not guilty of copyright infringement for quoting him.

    'You're The Only One With That Problem'
    "Before TMC (Technolgy and Maintenance Council, ATA) and its predecessor, the Maintenance Committee of ATA's Regular Common Carrier Conference, individual fleet maintenance managers had little or no clout.
    TMC old-timers say that when a manager complained about a failure of a component or part, a supplier representative often replied, "This is the first time I've seen this problem. You must be the only one who's having it."
    The implication was that the failure was the fault of the fleet; it must be somehow abusing or misusing the equipment. Or the rep would blame another supplier for the problem (then as now, North American trucks are assembled from pieces made by many companies, and warranty coverage sometimes got contentious). The manager, sitting in a room with a supplier and with no knowledge of what was happening nationally, couldn't know if the rep was telling him the truth. And to be charitable, the rep, who worked only within a certain region, really might not have heard of this problem before.
    But reps couldn't get away with such responses at TMC meetings. I've attended a number of Fleet Forum sessions over the years where managers, sometimes fueled with a few beverages prior to the sessions, rose to make pointed complaints – early failures of alternators, water pumps, injectors, tires, even cracked cabs and main frames. They were told by builder reps – who, again being charitable, were shooting from the hip – that they hadn't heard such complaints before.
    "Anybody else have this problem?" the moderator would ask. Sometimes a dozen hands went up. The poor builder's rep would have to retreat to a phone to confer with folks at the factory, then return later with a report. Sometimes his answer was acceptable to the fleet people and sometimes not. But they now had clout, and eventually the builders and fleets worked together to solve the problem."


    The point of the story is, is ROM telling Toyne "Gee whiz, no one else is having this problem," when in fact others might be? This is where we are: We don't have an organization with the scope and clout of TMC (and they have developed plenty over the years), but we can use this forum to identify common problems, get attention drawn to them and get them properly resolved.

    It would be good to hear from others on their experiences. I'm not a good example because our Toyne/Spartan with V-Mux has only one roll up door (ROM) and it has not presented a problem. Our Quality has a ROM door that I installed and it also works properly. But it's not a multiplexed vehicle, either.

    I did drive a Toyne on a Spartan chassis (V-Mux) that had compartments between the front seats and the crew area. The ROM roll up doors there were installed by Spartan and they did have the same problem. The rest of the doors were not a problem. One difference though was that it was last fall. The weather was cool but not especially cold.

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    It's not only Toyne...

    Our 2002 E-One was plagued with this problem for awhile, and although it's a multiplexed system, the problems turned out to be the switches themselves. Both the mags and switches. We replaced them all and haven't had a problem in awhile.

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