1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    the department that im in has had some preaty big fires, but no we are not in the "hot zone" but if PAR is called they need to know that EVERY one if accounted for.
    Let me put it in your language... Maybe you'll understand then.
    U don undrstnd wot da bulls try!i8 2 g3t acr0$t. u don n33d a p0rtabl3 2 ca!! par in 4 ur 3xp!03r$. don bur$t ur zipp3r.

    If your explorers/juniors are following the rules and doing what they're supposed to be doing, they should have NO NEED TO USE A RADIO TO CALL A PAR because they should be with a firefighter/some senior authority who knows where they are at all times and who has his own radio.

    Instead of using a portable for explorers/juniors to call PAR, how about we think outside of the box. Lets have them all meet in one common area like you learn to do in school when you have a fire drill. Do a manual head count and tell your adult advisor/supervisor. I know it's not the cool way of doing things, but you'll get to do it someday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFxplr326 View Post
    Let me put it in your language... Maybe you'll understand then.
    U don undrstnd wot da bulls try!i8 2 g3t acr0$t. u don n33d a p0rtabl3 2 ca!! par in 4 ur 3xp!03r$. don bur$t ur zipp3r.

    If your explorers/juniors are following the rules and doing what they're supposed to be doing, they should have NO NEED TO USE A RADIO TO CALL A PAR because they should be with a firefighter/some senior authority who knows where they are at all times and who has his own radio.

    Instead of using a portable for explorers/juniors to call PAR, how about we think outside of the box. Lets have them all meet in one common area like you learn to do in school when you have a fire drill. Do a manual head count and tell your adult advisor/supervisor. I know it's not the cool way of doing things, but you'll get to do it someday.
    Thank you Brother, That is what I was trying to convey to Jr here. If they are in the "cold zone" there no need to call par. "PAR1, Handing out water. PAR2, rolling hose. PAR3 retrieving fresh bottles." Just down right stupid. Stay off the radio and let the grown ups work. I don't care how big or small the fire, MVA or what ever the call is, jrs and damn sure the explorers don't need a radio. If your Chief is worth his salt, you will not be anywhere near the action and therefore have no need to use a radio. If your dept. is having that big of man power issues that require you to have to use Kids to operate, then your dept. needs to recruit some more adults or request for MA.
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    As a junior I can't even ride the first out rigs. Not aloud out on scene until commanding officers approval. Can ride tankers though and help water shuttle. Sure as hell don't need a radio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGITCH View Post
    As a junior I can't even ride the first out rigs. Not aloud out on scene until commanding officers approval. Can ride tankers though and help water shuttle. Sure as hell don't need a radio.
    Sounds like your dept. has their ducks in a row. Good post.

    P.S. Like those yellow trucks of yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Sounds like your dept. has their ducks in a row. Good post.

    P.S. Like those yellow trucks of yours.
    Why would anyone post a picture of the public works garage in a juniors/explorers forum?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why would anyone post a picture of the public works garage in a juniors/explorers forum?
    I guess for the uneducated, it could be confusing. Sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Thank you Brother, That is what I was trying to convey to Jr here. If they are in the "cold zone" there no need to call par. "PAR1, Handing out water. PAR2, rolling hose. PAR3 retrieving fresh bottles." Just down right stupid. Stay off the radio and let the grown ups work. I don't care how big or small the fire, MVA or what ever the call is, jrs and damn sure the explorers don't need a radio. If your Chief is worth his salt, you will not be anywhere near the action and therefore have no need to use a radio. If your dept. is having that big of man power issues that require you to have to use Kids to operate, then your dept. needs to recruit some more adults or request for MA.
    i think what your saying is that you dont like the fact that you dont like the fact Jrs and explorers get to use radios and they have less training, i mean there is no reson for us not to have one, its not like we are on there talking to our best friends.

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    Jrs. have their place on the fire dept. They can be useful and can be important to the future of the vol. dept. BUT there are only certain things that they are allowed to do, Which is a shorter list than the one which tells you what they can not do. I do not like giving the kids enough rope to hang themselves with. You have to keep a tight rein on them or they will get hurt and get the dept. in trouble. Giving kids radios is like temping fate. While you might have the best intentions in what you are doing, you neither have the training or the experience to do it. Remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions. With time and age you will and just be willing to wait your turn and pay your dues. What I have a problem with is depts. that allow Jrs. to operate in that fine gray area, because sooner than latter they are going to get someone hurt or killed, all because they did not want to hurt little Billy feelings. Again you should not be anywhere on the fire ground that you would need a radio to start with. So why have one. If you see something happen while driving down the road, use your cell phone and call it in, like everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Jrs. have their place on the fire dept. They can be useful and can be important to the future of the vol. dept. BUT there are only certain things that they are allowed to do, Which is a shorter list than the one which tells you what they can not do. I do not like giving the kids enough rope to hang themselves with. You have to keep a tight rein on them or they will get hurt and get the dept. in trouble. Giving kids radios is like temping fate. While you might have the best intentions in what you are doing, you neither have the training or the experience to do it. Remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions. With time and age you will and just be willing to wait your turn and pay your dues. What I have a problem with is depts. that allow Jrs. to operate in that fine gray area, because sooner than latter they are going to get someone hurt or killed, all because they did not want to hurt little Billy feelings. Again you should not be anywhere on the fire ground that you would need a radio to start with. So why have one. If you see something happen while driving down the road, use your cell phone and call it in, like everyone else.
    ok sir, i see more of what your saying now, and i fully understand what you mean by that, every radio user has to go through a radio class. which is a very interesting class, we go over the vhf, uhf, cb and 800 radio operations and get our HAM radio certs. but i see what your saying from your stand point. we shouldnt have them with out proper trainging, and i'm very sorry for geting smart with you in my last post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Giving kids radios is like temping fate. While you might have the best intentions in what you are doing, you neither have the training or the experience to do it.
    Thats a bunch of crap. The only reason they don't have the training or experience is because it isn't offered to them. Ours get training and therefore experience and frankly, they're better than a lot of senior firefighters when it comes to handling a two ways radio.
    Last edited by nmfire; 02-18-2010 at 08:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Sounds like your dept. has their ducks in a row. Good post.
    P.S. Like those yellow trucks of yours.
    Yea buddy!!! People don't know what color fire trucks should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Thank you Brother, That is what I was trying to convey to Jr here. If they are in the "cold zone" there no need to call par. "PAR1, Handing out water. PAR2, rolling hose. PAR3 retrieving fresh bottles." Just down right stupid. Stay off the radio and let the grown ups work. I don't care how big or small the fire, MVA or what ever the call is, jrs and damn sure the explorers don't need a radio. If your Chief is worth his salt, you will not be anywhere near the action and therefore have no need to use a radio. If your dept. is having that big of man power issues that require you to have to use Kids to operate, then your dept. needs to recruit some more adults or request for MA.
    I always have my brother's back.

    Quote Originally Posted by RS1606 View Post
    i think what your saying is that you dont like the fact that you dont like the fact Jrs and explorers get to use radios and they have less training, i mean there is no reson for us not to have one, its not like we are on there talking to our best friends.
    THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
    I think what you're trying to say is that you don't like the answer no.
    I don't even see the point with proper training. I'm not against getting communications training and learning how to use them and using them for training situations. But on an emergency scene, there's still no reason. Save them for the guys that need them and are working. And if there's radios left that you can grab off the engine, leave it be. Maybe someone will need the battery off it or their portable dies.
    Last edited by RFxplr326; 02-18-2010 at 08:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Thats a bunch of crap. The only reason they don't have the training or experience is because it isn't offered to them. Ours get training and therefore experience and frankly, they're better than a lot of senior firefighters when it comes to handling a two ways radio.
    Ok so you train your kids. Great I've got no problem with training. OK? Now what? They are expert radio operators? That and 25 cent will not get you a cup of coffee. They still can not operate on the fire ground or any other scene. Maybe they can hang out up at dispatch? If your Jrs are better on the radios than your SR. FF then maybe they need some training also. The question still remains, why do they, The Jrs., need their own radios?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Thats a bunch of crap. The only reason they don't have the training or experience is because it isn't offered to them. Ours get training and therefore experience and frankly, they're better than a lot of senior firefighters when it comes to handling a two ways radio.
    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Ok so you train your kids. Great I've got no problem with training. OK? Now what? They are expert radio operators? That and 25 cent will not get you a cup of coffee. They still can not operate on the fire ground or any other scene. Maybe they can hang out up at dispatch? If your Jrs are better on the radios than your SR. FF then maybe they need some training also. The question still remains, why do they, The Jrs., need their own radios?
    We're not trying to advocate against training with them. It's great that you have a resources to be able to train with them and teach the juniors/explorers how to properly use them. It's great that you're able to train your kids to use them better than some senior guys... I commend you for that. My old post also trained with them, a lot, and use them for several events throughout the year. But never on a fire scene, unless for some odd reason we had portables that are owned by the post, which are kept at an advisors house (so we'd never have them anyways). I, however, will not be an advocate of an explorer taking a portable off of an inservice rig at a scene unless they are told specifically to do so by a superior. A senior firefighter who is operating in the hot zone may need that piece of equipment. They can listen to communications activities on an emergency scene by standing near the IC or a superior who has a portable. Leave them for the ones that need them...
    And sure, maybe your kids are competent and mature enough to be able to carry a portable at a fire scene - I'm not arguing that. But we all know there are some people who simply aren't and could cause trouble by saying something they shouldn't be saying (maybe something specific to the investigation/cause or using wrong language or using it to ask their buddy what they think about the girl standing across the street).
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    Do juniors need radios.

    Why no - of course not. 30+ years ago when I got started we did not have radios for everyone, Why does everyone need one now?

    Of course not. Even though we have some Juniors that are more mature than many so called adult firefighters (Come on, you know you have the same situation) we just like to lump all of them into the same "immature" bunch.

    Heck no. They MIGHT use them improperly. I am not sure what magic appears on the 18th birthday that changes everything, but it is there.

    NO! Our juniors never have a need. (Mine do - they work as runners, they work in our rehab, they take care of our water points. I want to be able to reach them when I need to)

    Why not give them the responsibility and let them run with it? If they screw up, take that responsibility away from the ones that screw up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Ok so you train your kids. Great I've got no problem with training. OK? Now what? They are expert radio operators? That and 25 cent will not get you a cup of coffee. They still can not operate on the fire ground or any other scene. Maybe they can hang out up at dispatch? If your Jrs are better on the radios than your SR. FF then maybe they need some training also. The question still remains, why do they, The Jrs., need their own radios?
    • Yes ours can and do operate on the fireground or any other ground.
    • Dispatch is locked an secure, but they could go on a tour?
    • Yes, our senior members need better training. If I was doing the training for them, they would have it but that isn't my responsibility. I've offered and been turned down.
    • I didn't say they NEED them. I'm simply saying that they CAN if they are into it and want to have one, then proper training makes it perfectly acceptable in my book.
    • I'd rather see the kid buy an XTS3000 than weed and ruffies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Do juniors need radios.

    Why no - of course not. 30+ years ago when I got started we did not have radios for everyone, Why does everyone need one now?

    Of course not. Even though we have some Juniors that are more mature than many so called adult firefighters (Come on, you know you have the same situation) we just like to lump all of them into the same "immature" bunch.

    Heck no. They MIGHT use them improperly. I am not sure what magic appears on the 18th birthday that changes everything, but it is there.

    NO! Our juniors never have a need. (Mine do - they work as runners, they work in our rehab, they take care of our water points. I want to be able to reach them when I need to)

    Why not give them the responsibility and let them run with it? If they screw up, take that responsibility away from the ones that screw up.
    You have good points. But why riskt he chance of them screwing up? Responsibility is a bigger word, if you get what I mean, on a fire scene than it is, say inside the fire house washing trucks. There's just too much that could go wrong, too fast if they would happen to screw up.

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    • Yes ours can and do operate on the fireground or any other ground.
    • Dispatch is locked an secure, but they could go on a tour?
    • Yes, our senior members need better training. If I was doing the training for them, they would have it but that isn't my responsibility. I've offered and been turned down.
    • I didn't say they NEED them. I'm simply saying that they CAN if they are into it and want to have one, then proper training makes it perfectly acceptable in my book.
    • I'd rather see the kid buy an XTS3000 than weed and ruffies.
    You, as well, have all valid points... And I would much rather see a kid buy a portable or a minitor pager (as some of ours have). I just think, while it's a priviledge to some Posts to be given the responsibility (for the record, I think it's great some areas have the opportunity to do so), that it's too big of a risk. And yes, I know, we could go on and all with the what-ifs.
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    I'm not seeing the "RISK" of a properly trained junior/explorer having a portable radio. Risk of what?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    I can see that you do have a vaild point. And don't think that I am against the Jr FF or explorer programs, because I am not. Like I said above they are important to the VFF service. It just that I don't want one of these kids getting hurt, by "getting to big for there britches". They always seem to want to push the envelope and do more than they are suspose to do in the first palce, and it makes me leary thats all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFxplr326 View Post
    You have good points. But why riskt he chance of them screwing up? Responsibility is a bigger word, if you get what I mean, on a fire scene than it is, say inside the fire house washing trucks. There's just too much that could go wrong, too fast if they would happen to screw up.


    We train them, we develop them, we have NEVER had a radio issue with a junior. I guess its all in how your program is handled. Treat them like the young adults they are, and you may just find they rise to the occasion. Treat them like kids that can only wash a vehicle and roll hose, and that is exactly what you will get.

    I am big on giving people responsibility - rarely am I disappointed.

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    nm... Like I said, we could go on and on with the WHAT IFs/risks. Why risk a junior screwing something up or saying something he shouldn't over a portable? Why give a junior a piece of equipment that should be left and kept at the ready for a firefighter who might need it? When I first started riding along as an explorer, I tried to push for us being allowed to grab a portable. But I was repeatedly shot down by the chiefs and the advisors because A)if we're doing what we should be doing, we'd be with the engineer or the IC so one of them could give us direction and B) the reason I already gave and C) because it's a responsibility that they're not willing to give to explorers.

    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    I can see that you do have a vaild point. And don't think that I am against the Jr FF or explorer programs, because I am not. Like I said above they are important to the VFF service. It just that I don't want one of these kids getting hurt, by "getting to big for there britches". They always seem to want to push the envelope and do more than they are suspose to do in the first palce, and it makes me leary thats all.
    I used to be one of them that pushed the envelope... I got somewhere a couple times - got a ride along program started with 2 separate departments and I started an annual event here with all the local explorer posts at a local Homeland Security center (which, look for a post in these forums later this evening). Some times these pushes are for the good and some times they're not. I didn't get my way with a lot of things I tried to push. But now that I'm out of the post except for running and planning the Mock Disaster, I realize how I was just trying to keep my zipper from bursting.

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    We train them, we develop them, we have NEVER had a radio issue with a junior. I guess its all in how your program is handled. Treat them like the young adults they are, and you may just find they rise to the occasion. Treat them like kids that can only wash a vehicle and roll hose, and that is exactly what you will get.

    I am big on giving people responsibility - rarely am I disappointed.
    We don't treat them like that... The post is actually among the most fortunate posts in northwest Ohio with the "responsibilities" and things they're able to do. (if you want to get into that, email me, I'll send you their training schedule, schedule of events, and SOGs). And you're right - It has everything to do with how your post's program is handled. One thing we must all remember is that things are different everywhere... The post doesn't get called out for fires - They only way an explorer around here can be on an emergency scene is if they're riding. We'd rather see them exceling in school and becoming well-rounded leaders, in and out of the fire house.
    When I mentioned about responsibility, I was just trying to give an analogy of something that doesn't carry as many risks with it. Guess I just didn't say it right. My bad...
    Last edited by RFxplr326; 02-21-2010 at 05:09 PM.
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    I believe that there is no need for an explorer to OWN their own radio. If their fire dept would like them to have one on scene, it should be provided by the department at the time of the call. PLUS, there is not a black-and-white line with this. There are some depts (like mine) where there aren't enough explorers on a scene to need to call a par, where as other departments may have multiple explorers on a scene. Also, If the explorer advisor does not think someone is mature enough to handle a radio, then 1. they shouldn't be on a call and 2. JUST DON'T GIVE THEM A RADIO. I know there are some large explorer posts out there, but the explorer advisor should know his/her explorers well enough to distinguish between who is mature enough for a radio and who isn't. Now, if I were to go on a large fire call with my department and Chief (or whoever I responded with) wanted me to have a radio, I would grab a radio off of the truck. It would be used to communicate with him only, or anyone that specifically asked for my help. I would have no need to call par because I would be directly responsible to one firefighter (whether it be Chief or my explorer advisor or whoever I responded with) that would know exactly where I am. NONE of my explorers have ANY REASON to OWN a personal radio.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer Asst Chief Fern View Post
    I believe that there is no need for an explorer to OWN their own radio. If their fire dept would like them to have one on scene, it should be provided by the department at the time of the call. PLUS, there is not a black-and-white line with this. There are some depts (like mine) where there aren't enough explorers on a scene to need to call a par, where as other departments may have multiple explorers on a scene. Also, If the explorer advisor does not think someone is mature enough to handle a radio, then 1. they shouldn't be on a call and 2. JUST DON'T GIVE THEM A RADIO. I know there are some large explorer posts out there, but the explorer advisor should know his/her explorers well enough to distinguish between who is mature enough for a radio and who isn't. Now, if I were to go on a large fire call with my department and Chief (or whoever I responded with) wanted me to have a radio, I would grab a radio off of the truck. It would be used to communicate with him only, or anyone that specifically asked for my help. I would have no need to call par because I would be directly responsible to one firefighter (whether it be Chief or my explorer advisor or whoever I responded with) that would know exactly where I am. NONE of my explorers have ANY REASON to OWN a personal radio.
    Miss Fern,

    You are a very smart young lady and you will go far in life. Thank you for your input.
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Miss Fern,

    You are a very smart young lady and you will go far in life. Thank you for your input.
    Wow that really means a lot to me. haha that made my birthday so much better
    Explorer Assistant Chief Alisha Fern

    Leadership: The ability to guide, direct, and influence others.

    Leadership can be thought of as a capacity to define oneself to others in a way that clarifies and expands a vision of the future.


    alisha.fern@firehousemail.com

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    BULL321's Avatar
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    Jun 2007
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    Anytime.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL

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