1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Hey here's a really dumb suggestion, but since he's the Chief, why not just do as he asks and adhere to his policies and procedures?? I mean, after all, he IS the Chief you know.........Go ahead, **** him off and hand him some paperwork that says it's ok to have flashlights on your helmet, and watch him ball it up and throw it in the trashcan......You see where I am going with this?

    This.

    Also showing a little more decorum in an open forum.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    Way to go on tooting your own horn there...
    Get used to it. Yet another example of a person who thinks the number of years doing something automatically makes you better at it. I can shoot that theroy down all day long.

    Who's opinion would you value more?

    A guy who's been on DC or FDNY in one of the busiest houses for 10 years with 100+ fires a year or a guy who's been a FF for 30 years in a small town in the middle of nowhere that sees 2-3 major fires a year?

    There is alot more to being an expert in a field then simply be a member of something for longer then most poeple. We have guys near retirement age here who are medicore at best. Yet we have a new kid who has been here less then three years and runs circles around most of us. All he does is read about tactics, volunteers on the side, attends classes on his own dime, drills constantly. I would want him in a fire before some of our 20 years guys. And a great thing about him is he is willing to accept new things. He does not automatically shoot down any suggestions, tactics or tools simply because they are not "old school".

    There are plenty of old timers who are in fact masters of their craft. But ill form that opinion after talking to them. I don't just instantly take anybody for being an expert simply because they do something for a long time. And a big red flag for me is anybody who has to tell you how long they have been doing somthing right off the bat to get credibility instead of just showing me.

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    I invented fire.

    Then I invented putting out fire.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    I invented fire.

    Then I invented putting out fire.
    See! Your someone who's opinion would matter to me. It does not get any better then the person who is responsible for this menace in the first place. Kudo's to you and your skills in creating fire.

    I had always thought is was Chuck Norris who intented fire. But you will do.

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    I wish my biggest concern at work was why the chief was telling me not to put a bunch of junk on my helmet that didnt need to be there anyway.

    Try worrying about something that matters.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    anybody can be an expert on the internet...

    and 57-63.... what hostile locations were you talking about?
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I'm willing to bet that of the posters on here who are challenging the Chief's Directive have:
    I'm not so sure anybody is specifically "challenging the Chief's directive", other than the original poster. I'm assuming that I'm probably in that group you refer to and if so, you would lose your bet.

    A. Never served in any branch of the United States Military, AND/OR
    USMC - 6 years.
    B. Are less than 25 years old,
    Almost 40.

    with less than 5 years experience in the fire service, and all with slow volunteer outfits that have no written standard or policy on the Unified Chain of Command.
    Almost 17 years experience in the fire service. Almost 8 years career fire, 9 volunteer with "busy" departments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    I had always thought is was Chuck Norris who intented fire. But you will do.
    Well, Johnny & Chuck are both from Texas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I'll also add this, in public forum - The NFPA can go fly a kite. People need to understand that the NFPA creates consensus Standards. Not Rules, Not Regulations, Not Laws, just a Standard that should reflect best practices in a given subject area.
    What irks me to no end are the departments that make a big to-do about being NFPA compliant in one area (helmet flashlights, for example) and then flip a giant finger to the NFPA in another (1710 & 1403 come to mind).

    While I'm on my soapbox, I'd also like a list of all the LODDs that were denied benefits because of PPE modifications. I know that the worker's comp folks are stingy with their money. However, I've had more than one ray of sunshine tell me that the families of LODDs don't get their money if the fallen are wearing bourkes... or if they're wearing 3/4s and a long coat... or if they're wearing un-approved leather... or... well, you get the idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I'm willing to bet that of the posters on here who are challenging the Chief's Directive have:
    A. Never served in any branch of the United States Military, AND/OR
    I'll play!, being that we are comparing wiener size.....

    15 Years, USMC Infantryman 0311/0369, with a stint in Bosnia, combat tours in Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq. (how am I doing so far?)

    B. Are less than 25 years old, with less than 5 years experience in the fire service, and all with slow volunteer outfits that have no written standard or policy on the Unified Chain of Command.
    34 years old, 18 years in the Fire Service, Volunteer and Career; even was a vollie Chief for 3 years. The vollies, we ran about 800 runs a year, no EMS, slow I know, and had 15-20 good jobs a year.....career...I spent 4.5 years in an Engine Company that did about 6000 runs a year and close to 500 Occupied Structural Workers.....we have written rules on both departments....



    If the OP is a career guy, then go to your union! Let them fight the battle.

    If you are vollie....tell the guy to go "F" himself and vote someone else in. I would, and have done it on many issues in the past. Who cares, you get suspended, who does it really hurt?

    There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO data on lawsuits in which a flashlight was the result of a FF fatality when attached to a helmet...that's just silly. Sounds like your "Chief" is not secure with his leadership ability or fire experience.
    IACOJ Member

  11. #36
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    It appears that we are way past the "because the chief says so" rationale. I'll offer this bit of advice. Make an appointment to meet with him and discuss the issue from both his and your perspective. Ask him if you can research the issue of helmet-mounted flashlights and report back to him with your findings for his consideration. Make sure that you address all of his concerns in your research and specifically address these when you meet with him again.

    If he still says "no", maybe one day, if you become the fire chief, you will overturn his ruling and allow them.

    Good luck.
    rjtoc2

    career Fire Captain
    IAFF member
    Native Texan (by way of New Orleans)


    ***The above post (s) is/are MY opinion and do/does not necessarily reflect the views, positions, or opinions of neither my employer nor my IAFF Local.***

    Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof, and make counter accusations.

    A lack of planning on your behalf does NOT create an emergency on my behalf.

    When all is said and done, alot more is said than done

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    Quote Originally Posted by mach158 View Post
    Well apparently the chief of a Fire dept. I am on has a huge problem with people adding a flashlight or even the rubber band on our helmets. He states that if something happens to the firefighter that they will blame the added flashlight or band to try and get out of anything and say it caused the failure or defect.

    As long as the the stuff being added to the helmet meets NFPA standards is their really anything out there that states it can't be added to the helmet or it will void any warranty or anything of that nature? Or is it just the chiefs excuse to keep stuff off our helmets?

    If their is a NFPA standard stating something either way,which I could not find, could you please post it?



    Two pages of bickering over a helmet light!

    If that Chief of Department has issued an order saying that nothing can be added to any part of the city or county issued PPE, then accept that as the policy of the department.

    Not saying if you disagree, write an letter to the Chief, through proper channels, and see if he/she will give you an audience to discuss this.

    Be aware that if you stir the pot enough on this minor subject, you may end up at a house so far from where you live, that is will cost more in fuel and time traveling and may not get a promotion any time soon.

  13. #38
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    NFPA 1971 says a helmet may not be altered or modified from the manufacturer's specifications. Meaning you cannot drill holes and you cannot remove any part of the helmet that was there when it came out of the box. Some flashlight holders clamp onto the helmet brim and are designed that way because of NFPA 1971.

    There is nothing in NFPA 1971 that mentions "flashlights."

    The Chief said no. No means no.

    There are cases where firefighters were denied LODD benefits because of PPE alterations from manufacturer's specifications.

    The more things you have attached to you the more things that are likely to catch on something or get tangled up in something.

    My personal opinion...a flashlight should be carried in your hand or clipped on your chest either on your coat or SCBA, they do not belong on your helmet. I tell my guys to turn their flashlights off or point them down when they talk to me because it blinds me.

    Another reason is too your helmet shouldn't look like a magnet that went through an auto parts store.
    Jason Knecht
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    There are cases where firefighters were denied LODD benefits because of PPE alterations from manufacturer's specifications.
    Do you have any links or know where to find that info? I am curious to see what kind of mods they did? Wondering if it was something major or something simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    My personal opinion...a flashlight should be carried in your hand or clipped on your chest either on your coat or SCBA, they do not belong on your helmet.
    The main reason i like a flashlight on my helmet is for overhaul or outside extrication work. Both are cases where entanglement are a non issue.

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    they also arent allowing flashlights to be clipped onto the coat...


    i mentioned it in my post....
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    they also arent allowing flashlights to be clipped onto the coat...


    i mentioned it in my post....
    So are they supplying you with box lights with straps? Or do you have to rely on handheld lights? I can tell you that I'm not very good at pulling plaster with one hand.

    It's easy for a chief with a bug up his *** to hand down directives to the line. We have one (division chief) that tweaks policy all the time. Do we hate it? Yes, but the upshot is that everyone is familiar with the SOG's, very familiar. If a policy is created that the line does not agree with, the union body fights it out. I guess that's a benefit to being on a large department. The dpartment Chief usually isn't involved in these matters.
    IAFF

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    5lb box lights, some with straps, some without.

    I bought my own thermal imager, paid 25,000 for it and mounted it on my helmet.

    I dont need no stinking lights...

    I'm the Predator...

    I'm just awaiting a few more thousand dollars before I get my shoulder mounted laser rocket launcher.

    I already got my own spear... I just stole a metal pike pole
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    .

    I already got my own spear... I just stole a metal pike pole
    All you need now is some feathers and some buckskin underwear and you're money!
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    Do you have any links or know where to find that info? I am curious to see what kind of mods they did? Wondering if it was something major or something simple.
    I seem to remember a firefighter who was involved in a roof collapse where they found he had drilled holes in the helmet to install an after market set of Bourke eyeshields on a traditional style helmet. I cannot remember the exact location but I thought it was on the east coast, maybe Maine or Vermont?? Sorry, I thought I heard something like this in early of 2001 before 9/11.

    I could be wrong too, I got nothing to back it up with. I'll try to do some searching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mach158 View Post
    Well apparently the chief of a Fire dept. I am on has a huge problem with people adding a flashlight or even the rubber band on our helmets. He states that if something happens to the firefighter that they will blame the added flashlight or band to try and get out of anything and say it caused the failure or defect.
    My first sense is this guy has a major fear of liability. I'd be scared working for someone with that much fear of such an insignificant issue. I wouldn't disobey the order, but I'd being looking for organized assistance in protecting myself and my brothers if this was my boss, only bad things can come...Ask the Chief if your FD meets NFPA 1710/1720? Give him something to cry about.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-17-2010 at 06:15 PM. Reason: n't

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I seem to remember a firefighter who was involved in a roof collapse where they found he had drilled holes in the helmet to install an after market set of Bourke eyeshields on a traditional style helmet.

    The way some of these lawsuits are, it would not surprise me. But think of how silly it is to deny a claim for a FF who falls through a roof because of two 1/4 holes in the front brim of his helmet. What a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    The way some of these lawsuits are, it would not surprise me. But think of how silly it is to deny a claim for a FF who falls through a roof because of two 1/4 holes in the front brim of his helmet. What a joke.
    That is why you haven't seen any plausible citations of actual cases where this occured.

    I have a few books on fire law and I can't find anything remotely resembling any senario such as this. More Kitchen table lawyers who due to their ignorance of how the laws work and what can and won't happen to you, fill in the blanks with their imaginations.

    Oh and by the way if the helmet in question is a leather...the brim is not part of the rated impact protection...so it would be immaterial to any injuries suffered in a collapse.

    Look it up. It is what this chief in question should have done rather than exposing his own ignorance through unsubstaniated fears of non-exisitant lititgation. But then again why let good rummors die.

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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    That is why you haven't seen any plausible citations of actual cases where this occured.

    I have a few books on fire law and I can't find anything remotely resembling any senario such as this. More Kitchen table lawyers who due to their ignorance of how the laws work and what can and won't happen to you, fill in the blanks with their imaginations.

    Oh and by the way if the helmet in question is a leather...the brim is not part of the rated impact protection...so it would be immaterial to any injuries suffered in a collapse.

    Look it up. It is what this chief in question should have done rather than exposing his own ignorance through unsubstaniated fears of non-exisitant lititgation. But then again why let good rummors die.

    FTM-PTB
    Should you be careful how you operate, absolutely.

    The irrational fear over "lawsuits" makes me crazy. Can you get sued, yes. Does it have to have some basis in fact, no. A person can sue for ANYTHING.

    So, you shouldn't manage your practices solely to prevent lawsuits. It won't work. You'd be better off establishing policies that are based on proven practices or recognized standards.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 02-17-2010 at 01:01 PM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    OK, I did some looking and started with the owner's manual of the helmets we use on my vollie department. When you read this owners manual, you see such things as...

    NEVER alter, paint, or attach any item not recommended by (manufacturer) to the helmet.
    Use only accessory equipment of the type included in the original helmet or approved by (manufacturer). Using unauthorized accessories may dramatically change the performance of the helmet.
    All helmet accessories (e.g. flashlight, brackets, communications head sets, etc.) must be either supplied by a (manufacturer) authorized fire service distributor or authorized for use in writing by (manufacturer).
    This is all on the first couple of pages of that red booklet that's attached to the helmet that most of us rip off and throw away without reading.

    If this is the reasoning the chief wants only what comes on the helmet, then he has the documentation to back it up. If you want to fight it and put something on there, get with the manufacturer and get written approval to do so and start at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    OK, I did some looking and started with the owner's manual of the helmets we use on my vollie department. When you read this owners manual, you see such things as...







    This is all on the first couple of pages of that red booklet that's attached to the helmet that most of us rip off and throw away without reading.

    If this is the reasoning the chief wants only what comes on the helmet, then he has the documentation to back it up. If you want to fight it and put something on there, get with the manufacturer and get written approval to do so and start at that point.
    That type of information is standard on most anything you buy. It's simply a way the manufacturers cover their ***. A Corvette's operators manual says to "Obey all posted speed limits" yet they make a car that goes almost 200mph and it has a 170mph speedometer.

    It's not that helmet manufacturers really give a rats *** if you paint your helmet or put a rubber band on it, but if they did NOT tell you not to do it and for whatever reason you had an issue, then you would sue them based on the fact that "They" never warned you.

    If that is your Chiefs argument for not putting things on your helmet, then show up what the tag on the inside of your turnout coat says. There is a whole list of things your not supposed to do. Including one that says

    "Do NOT use this garment if soiled, torn, abraded or worn"

    So, that means mister "By the book" Chief better get you a buch of spare gear. My gear gets soiled just walking in some places. If i spill coffe on my coat, should it pulled out of service? And worn? Define "Worn"? My gear is faded, that sounds worn to me. My gear does not in any way look new. So it's worn. I guess i technically should not be wearing it.

    Go look at any magenetic mount warning light, like a mini bar. You wll find a label that says "For stationary use only, not for use on a moving vehicle". Do you ever see anybody not putting a warning light on untill they go to the fire?

    McDonalds coffee cups have a warning on them, "Caution, coffee may be hot".

    Again, the vast majority of safety labels are completley worthless. If you followed them to the letter, you would get nothing done. They are nothing more then protection for the manufacturer.


    This is worth a read:

    http://www.forbes.com/2007/03/15/app...liability.html

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