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  1. #41
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    they also arent allowing flashlights to be clipped onto the coat...


    i mentioned it in my post....
    So are they supplying you with box lights with straps? Or do you have to rely on handheld lights? I can tell you that I'm not very good at pulling plaster with one hand.

    It's easy for a chief with a bug up his *** to hand down directives to the line. We have one (division chief) that tweaks policy all the time. Do we hate it? Yes, but the upshot is that everyone is familiar with the SOG's, very familiar. If a policy is created that the line does not agree with, the union body fights it out. I guess that's a benefit to being on a large department. The dpartment Chief usually isn't involved in these matters.
    IAFF


  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    5lb box lights, some with straps, some without.

    I bought my own thermal imager, paid 25,000 for it and mounted it on my helmet.

    I dont need no stinking lights...

    I'm the Predator...

    I'm just awaiting a few more thousand dollars before I get my shoulder mounted laser rocket launcher.

    I already got my own spear... I just stole a metal pike pole
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

  3. #43
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    .

    I already got my own spear... I just stole a metal pike pole
    All you need now is some feathers and some buckskin underwear and you're money!
    IAFF

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    Do you have any links or know where to find that info? I am curious to see what kind of mods they did? Wondering if it was something major or something simple.
    I seem to remember a firefighter who was involved in a roof collapse where they found he had drilled holes in the helmet to install an after market set of Bourke eyeshields on a traditional style helmet. I cannot remember the exact location but I thought it was on the east coast, maybe Maine or Vermont?? Sorry, I thought I heard something like this in early of 2001 before 9/11.

    I could be wrong too, I got nothing to back it up with. I'll try to do some searching.
    Jason Knecht
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mach158 View Post
    Well apparently the chief of a Fire dept. I am on has a huge problem with people adding a flashlight or even the rubber band on our helmets. He states that if something happens to the firefighter that they will blame the added flashlight or band to try and get out of anything and say it caused the failure or defect.
    My first sense is this guy has a major fear of liability. I'd be scared working for someone with that much fear of such an insignificant issue. I wouldn't disobey the order, but I'd being looking for organized assistance in protecting myself and my brothers if this was my boss, only bad things can come...Ask the Chief if your FD meets NFPA 1710/1720? Give him something to cry about.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-17-2010 at 05:15 PM. Reason: n't

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I seem to remember a firefighter who was involved in a roof collapse where they found he had drilled holes in the helmet to install an after market set of Bourke eyeshields on a traditional style helmet.

    The way some of these lawsuits are, it would not surprise me. But think of how silly it is to deny a claim for a FF who falls through a roof because of two 1/4 holes in the front brim of his helmet. What a joke.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    The way some of these lawsuits are, it would not surprise me. But think of how silly it is to deny a claim for a FF who falls through a roof because of two 1/4 holes in the front brim of his helmet. What a joke.
    That is why you haven't seen any plausible citations of actual cases where this occured.

    I have a few books on fire law and I can't find anything remotely resembling any senario such as this. More Kitchen table lawyers who due to their ignorance of how the laws work and what can and won't happen to you, fill in the blanks with their imaginations.

    Oh and by the way if the helmet in question is a leather...the brim is not part of the rated impact protection...so it would be immaterial to any injuries suffered in a collapse.

    Look it up. It is what this chief in question should have done rather than exposing his own ignorance through unsubstaniated fears of non-exisitant lititgation. But then again why let good rummors die.

    FTM-PTB

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    That is why you haven't seen any plausible citations of actual cases where this occured.

    I have a few books on fire law and I can't find anything remotely resembling any senario such as this. More Kitchen table lawyers who due to their ignorance of how the laws work and what can and won't happen to you, fill in the blanks with their imaginations.

    Oh and by the way if the helmet in question is a leather...the brim is not part of the rated impact protection...so it would be immaterial to any injuries suffered in a collapse.

    Look it up. It is what this chief in question should have done rather than exposing his own ignorance through unsubstaniated fears of non-exisitant lititgation. But then again why let good rummors die.

    FTM-PTB
    Should you be careful how you operate, absolutely.

    The irrational fear over "lawsuits" makes me crazy. Can you get sued, yes. Does it have to have some basis in fact, no. A person can sue for ANYTHING.

    So, you shouldn't manage your practices solely to prevent lawsuits. It won't work. You'd be better off establishing policies that are based on proven practices or recognized standards.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 02-17-2010 at 12:01 PM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  9. #49
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    OK, I did some looking and started with the owner's manual of the helmets we use on my vollie department. When you read this owners manual, you see such things as...

    NEVER alter, paint, or attach any item not recommended by (manufacturer) to the helmet.
    Use only accessory equipment of the type included in the original helmet or approved by (manufacturer). Using unauthorized accessories may dramatically change the performance of the helmet.
    All helmet accessories (e.g. flashlight, brackets, communications head sets, etc.) must be either supplied by a (manufacturer) authorized fire service distributor or authorized for use in writing by (manufacturer).
    This is all on the first couple of pages of that red booklet that's attached to the helmet that most of us rip off and throw away without reading.

    If this is the reasoning the chief wants only what comes on the helmet, then he has the documentation to back it up. If you want to fight it and put something on there, get with the manufacturer and get written approval to do so and start at that point.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    OK, I did some looking and started with the owner's manual of the helmets we use on my vollie department. When you read this owners manual, you see such things as...







    This is all on the first couple of pages of that red booklet that's attached to the helmet that most of us rip off and throw away without reading.

    If this is the reasoning the chief wants only what comes on the helmet, then he has the documentation to back it up. If you want to fight it and put something on there, get with the manufacturer and get written approval to do so and start at that point.
    That type of information is standard on most anything you buy. It's simply a way the manufacturers cover their ***. A Corvette's operators manual says to "Obey all posted speed limits" yet they make a car that goes almost 200mph and it has a 170mph speedometer.

    It's not that helmet manufacturers really give a rats *** if you paint your helmet or put a rubber band on it, but if they did NOT tell you not to do it and for whatever reason you had an issue, then you would sue them based on the fact that "They" never warned you.

    If that is your Chiefs argument for not putting things on your helmet, then show up what the tag on the inside of your turnout coat says. There is a whole list of things your not supposed to do. Including one that says

    "Do NOT use this garment if soiled, torn, abraded or worn"

    So, that means mister "By the book" Chief better get you a buch of spare gear. My gear gets soiled just walking in some places. If i spill coffe on my coat, should it pulled out of service? And worn? Define "Worn"? My gear is faded, that sounds worn to me. My gear does not in any way look new. So it's worn. I guess i technically should not be wearing it.

    Go look at any magenetic mount warning light, like a mini bar. You wll find a label that says "For stationary use only, not for use on a moving vehicle". Do you ever see anybody not putting a warning light on untill they go to the fire?

    McDonalds coffee cups have a warning on them, "Caution, coffee may be hot".

    Again, the vast majority of safety labels are completley worthless. If you followed them to the letter, you would get nothing done. They are nothing more then protection for the manufacturer.


    This is worth a read:

    http://www.forbes.com/2007/03/15/app...liability.html

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    That type of information is standard on most anything you buy. It's simply a way the manufacturers cover their ***. A Corvette's operators manual says to "Obey all posted speed limits" yet they make a car that goes almost 200mph and it has a 170mph speedometer.

    It's not that helmet manufacturers really give a rats *** if you paint your helmet or put a rubber band on it, but if they did NOT tell you not to do it and for whatever reason you had an issue, then you would sue them based on the fact that "They" never warned you.

    If that is your Chiefs argument for not putting things on your helmet, then show up what the tag on the inside of your turnout coat says. There is a whole list of things your not supposed to do. Including one that says

    "Do NOT use this garment if soiled, torn, abraded or worn"

    So, that means mister "By the book" Chief better get you a buch of spare gear. My gear gets soiled just walking in some places. If i spill coffe on my coat, should it pulled out of service? And worn? Define "Worn"? My gear is faded, that sounds worn to me. My gear does not in any way look new. So it's worn. I guess i technically should not be wearing it.

    Go look at any magenetic mount warning light, like a mini bar. You wll find a label that says "For stationary use only, not for use on a moving vehicle". Do you ever see anybody not putting a warning light on untill they go to the fire?

    McDonalds coffee cups have a warning on them, "Caution, coffee may be hot".

    Again, the vast majority of safety labels are completley worthless. If you followed them to the letter, you would get nothing done. They are nothing more then protection for the manufacturer.


    This is worth a read:

    http://www.forbes.com/2007/03/15/app...liability.html
    I am well aware of why the warnings are on there, I'm just giving the OP another possible reason as to why his chief won't allow additions on their helmet. As the chief, that's his perogative.

    But, to take into account your information, let's assume his chief does allow him to alter his helmet. Let's say he goes into a house and his helmet-mounted flashlight snags on some wiring and rips his helmet off. While in this mess, he stands up and knocks himself out on something because he has no helmet. Well, he's holed up in the hospital for a while and gets a visit from an attorney saying "you know, your chief allowed you to modify your helmet beyond what the manufacturer allowed, it's his and your department's fault your here." See where I'm going with this?

    Bottom line in this whole thing is something I said before, the chief is responsible for the department, the equipment, and his personnel. If he says "no" to modifying a helmet, you don't modify the helmet.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Bottom line in this whole thing is something I said before, the chief is responsible for the department, the equipment, and his personnel. If he says "no" to modifying a helmet, you don't modify the helmet.
    No argument there.

    My posts show that. My only issue was if my Cheif was claiming it's an NFPA thing, point me to the rule. Not so i can argue it. But so i can have a better understanding as to why. Again, there is nothing wrong with having an understanding of a rule. No matter the rule. I am sure there are people who are simply too afraid to question anything. But you need to understand that just because you want to know why something is the way it is does not mean you are looking for an argument.

    Everybody is quick to say "Who cares why, shut up and do as your told". But i would rather know the reasons then to just simply go "OK". And ill say it again, knowing why is not so i can argue, i simply want to know for my own knowledge. Again, if your ok with blindly following anything and everything a superior tells you, that is your choice. On the fireground, ill do as i am told without hesitation. But anything i take issue with ill research later. Maybe ill bring it up with an Officer, maybe i won't. But people should know rules and regulations to have a better understanding.

  13. #53
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    nfpa 1971 a.1.1.5

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    nfpa 1971 a.1.1.5
    That annwers that:

    "This standard shall not specify requirements for any accessories that could be attached to the certified product, but are not necessary for the certified product to meet the requirements of this standard"

    In other words, no NFPA regulation says anything about NOT being allowed to have a helmet band on your helmet, or a flashlight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    That annwers that:

    "This standard shall not specify requirements for any accessories that could be attached to the certified product, but are not necessary for the certified product to meet the requirements of this standard"

    In other words, no NFPA regulation says anything about NOT being allowed to have a helmet band on your helmet, or a flashlight.
    You got that out of NFPA 1971, a.1.1.5? I ask because I didn't find that sentence anywhere in a.1.1.5.

    The very first sentence of that section pretty much sums up the rest of what it says; "Fire and emergency response organizations are cautioned that accessories are nto a part of the certified product but could be attached to the certified product by means not engineered, manufactured, or authorized by the manufacturer."

    In short, if it's not on it when it left the manufacturer, or not authorized by the manufacturer as an approved add-on, it's not recommended to be added to your PPE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    That annwers that:

    "This standard shall not specify requirements for any accessories that could be attached to the certified product, but are not necessary for the certified product to meet the requirements of this standard"

    In other words, no NFPA regulation says anything about NOT being allowed to have a helmet band on your helmet, or a flashlight.
    You need to read the appendix as well, A.1.1.5, which puts more stipulations and requirements on such modifications. Hence the * after 1.1.5.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    You got that out of NFPA 1971, a.1.1.5? I ask because I didn't find that sentence anywhere in a.1.1.5.

    The very first sentence of that section pretty much sums up the rest of what it says; "Fire and emergency response organizations are cautioned that accessories are nto a part of the certified product but could be attached to the certified product by means not engineered, manufactured, or authorized by the manufacturer."

    In short, if it's not on it when it left the manufacturer, or not authorized by the manufacturer as an approved add-on, it's not recommended to be added to your PPE.
    He didn't...it was 1.1.5 with that sentence along with the * for more info in the appendix.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    My first sense is this guy has a major fear of liability. I'd be scared working for someone with that much fear of such an insignificant issue.
    I am not sure if "fear" is the correct word... maybe a healthy dose of respect. The Fire Chief bears the ultimate responsibility for the operation of the FD. His perspective is likely to be broader than a tailboard firefighter. If you are scared of your boss, you may need to go to Plan "B".

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I would disobey the order...
    I'd be careful with that one. Depending on where you work and your rank, the consequences of insubordination include progressive discipline up to, and including, termination. You could also be subjected to both civil action and/or criminal charges based on your actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Rule #1 Pick your battles. Is it really that important?
    That is excellent advice.
    Last edited by rjtoc2; 02-17-2010 at 09:39 PM.
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    ***The above post (s) is/are MY opinion and do/does not necessarily reflect the views, positions, or opinions of neither my employer nor my IAFF Local.***

    Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof, and make counter accusations.

    A lack of planning on your behalf does NOT create an emergency on my behalf.

    When all is said and done, alot more is said than done

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    He didn't...it was 1.1.5 with that sentence along with the * for more info in the appendix.
    That explains it. I went directly to the appendix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjtoc2 View Post
    "I would disobey that order"


    I'd be careful with that one. Depending on where you work and your rank, the consequences of insubordination include progressive discipline up to, and including, termination. You could also be subjected to both civil and criminal charges based on your actions.


    My bad, I left out the n't. While I wouldn't like it, I'd always concede to fulfilling the wishes of a superior and fight the battle via the Union or other solution. Short of out and out endangerment, I wouldn't support disobeying, there's usually a better time and place.

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