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    Default Firefighting technology - your opinion

    Hi,

    I'm trying to figure out how interesting the technology might be. Please, share your thoughts and opinion. As links are forbidden, I copy here only a description of the technology:

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Every year forest fires become a national disaster. Firefighting faces with challenges of the long distances between the hotbeds, their amount and impossibility of immediate reallocation of the recourses needed. It is possible to overcome these challenges by implementing a new approach for firefighting at forests and peat bogs. The approach suggests creating at the fire location a fine-dispersed water mist – an artificial local cloud rich of water which pours with rain after interaction with a smoke.

    In the beginning of 70th a similar plant with dimensions of 0.22 meter in diameter and 0.088 meter high successfully operated for spraying fuel in a liquid-propellant rocket engine. It was tested in Sevastopol where as a result of spraying sea-water the Sevastopol bay with all its ships and at sunny weather disappeared in a water mist within 27 minutes.

    In the base of the approach there are well known natural phenomenon: evaporation, condensation of stream, creation of a cloud of water drops by means of their coagulation and rain fall over a place of the fire.

    A movement of the water cloud to the place of a fire is made by allocation of fixed or mobile plants for firefighting according to the wind rose of the State. To run the process it is necessary at first to create a fine-dispersed medium of water drops (mist) in a big volume in a certain distance from the place of the fire. A fine-dispersed medium is created by the plant. It also regulates the temperature of evaporation and condensation of the drops in an artificial cloud. The dimensions of the plant are 1 meter in diameter and 0.3 meter high. The plant is designed in a form of a cylinder to which air and water (salt or sweet) are transferred under a calculated pressure. The plant has no separate spray elements therefore it is simple in construction, not expensive and reliable to use.

    Firefighting process is realized by limiting oxygen access to the hotbed of the fire when it is covered by a water cloud (together with smoke and carbon dioxide from the bottom layer) and then falling of a heavy rain from upper layers of the cloud which should result in fire localization and its’ further non-proliferation.

    The described process may be controlled by changing a water amount used, air and pressure at the plant as well as by possible regulating the diameter of water drops.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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    I can't because you don't speak english. You have no idea what you're talking about and neither do I. Stop posting junk and spam here and go find some other group of people to bother with your non-sense.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    I can't because you don't speak english. You have no idea what you're talking about and neither do I. Stop posting junk and spam here and go find some other group of people to bother with your non-sense.
    OK, I just will wait for a while for the other opinions

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    Olgad
    I live in Ukraine not that far from Sevastopol. Drop me a PM in Russian or Ukraine and I'll try to explain it a little better for you on here

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Olgad
    I live in Ukraine not that far from Sevastopol. Drop me a PM in Russian or Ukraine and I'll try to explain it a little better for you on here
    Thanks a lot!

    Here is the Russian text:
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Каждый год лесные пожары становятся национальным бедствием. Пожаротушение сталкивается с трудностями больших расстояний между очагами, их количеством и невозможностью немедленного перемещения необходимых ресурсов. Эти трудности возможно преодолеть, используя новый подход к тушению пожаров в лесах и на торфяниках. Этот метод предполагает создание в зоне пожара мелкодисперсного водяного тумана – искусственного облака, насыщенного водой, которая выпадает в виде дождя после взаимодействия с дымом.

    В начале 70-х похожее устройство размерами 0,22 метра в диаметре и 0,088 метров высотой успешно работало для впрыскивания топлива в жидкостный реактивный ракетный двигатель. Оно было испытано в Севастополе, где в результате распыления морской воды Севастопольский залив со всеми его кораблями и в солнечную погоду исчез в водяном тумане за 27 минут.

    В основе подхода лежат хорошо известные природные явления: испарение, конденсация, создание облака из водяных капель посредством их коагуляции и выпадения в виде дождя на месте пожара.

    Движение водяного облака к месту пожара осуществляется расположением стационарных или мобильных устройств для пожаротушения в соответствии с розой ветров региона. Чтобы начать процесс, необходимо сначала создать мелкодисперсную среду водяных капель (туман) в большом объёме на определенном расстоянии от очага огня. Такая мелкодисперсная среда и создается предлагаемым устройством. Возможно также регулирование температуры испарения и конденсации капель в искусственном облаке. Размеры устройства – 1 метр в диаметре и 0,3 метра в высоту. Конструкция выполнена в виде цилиндра, в которой воздух и вода (пресная или соленая) подаются под расчётным давлением. У устройства отсутствуют распыляющие элементы, поэтому оно просто в сборке, не дорого и надёжно в использовании.

    Процесс пожаротушения осуществляется ограничением доступа кислорода к очагу огня, когда он окутан водяным облаком (вместе с дымом и диоксидом углерода из нижнего слоя) и последующим выпадением сильного дождя из верхних слоев облака, что в результате приводит к локализации пожара и его нераспространению.

    Описанный процесс может контролироваться количеством используемой воды, воздуха и давлением в устройстве, а так же возможностью регулирования диаметра водяных капель.

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    My Russian is only fair when it comes to technical information, but as I understand it, this is a portable pressureized water mist generator. It sprays water in a finely distributed mist over a ground or bog fire and the water mist acts as a blanket with the carbon particles and CO2 to deprive the fire of oxygen and to saturate the ground. I believe there is something similar used in the Scandinavian countries. Bum might be able to add more information on this. I can't see it being effective from the description but I probably don't have all the information.

    Olgad, where are you located?
    Last edited by BryanLoader; 02-14-2010 at 08:45 AM.

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    Has he ever actually seen a wildland fire??? His fancy mist will evaporate before it gets 100ft from the fire. If that.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post

    Olgad, where are you located?
    Moscow.

    Do you think I need to change translation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Has he ever actually seen a wildland fire??? His fancy mist will evaporate before it gets 100ft from the fire. If that.
    I'm a girl ;-) I'll send you a reply about evaporation later.

    And thanks to all of you for participating in the topic.
    Last edited by Olgad; 02-14-2010 at 09:08 AM.

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    Ok, her mist will evaportate. You need VOLUME to put out fire (any fire). Using a mist will just make a neat looking cloud of steam before it even reaches the fire. Plus your cloud of mist will just be pushed away by the wind anyway.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    [QUOTE = nmfire; 1146289] Has he ever actually seen a wildland fire??? His fancy mist will evaporate before it gets 100ft from the fire. If that. [/ QUOTE]

    He's not talking about a wildland fire, he's talking about a ground fire. They are quite common is a lot of areas of the world. They mostly burn below or just on the surface of the ground. Not a lot of surface heat, sometimes none. We have them occaisionally in Canada, also have fires called coal bed fires that follow coal seams. One in Alberta has been burning since the late 1800s. Basically impossible to put out

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    [QUOTE = Olgad; 1146290] Moscow.

    Do you think I need to change translation? [/ QUOTE]

    I understood your topic Olgad but I would need more information. It doesn't seem that effective to me but maybe more info would make it clearer. Do you know a manufacturer? I'm in Nikolayev, just east of Odessa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I would need more information. It doesn't seem that effective to me but maybe more info would make it clearer. Do you know a manufacturer? I'm in Nikolayev, just east of Odessa.
    Yes, I know the people. What info do you need?

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    [QUOTE = Olgad; 1146295] Yes, I know the people. What info do you need? [/ QUOTE]

    If you can send a link to mfgs web site or even mfgs name, I can look it up and get a little more clear on the technology. We have quite a few of these ground or peat fires in Canada as well

    If its easier, just write in Russian

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post

    If you can send a link to mfgs web site or even mfgs name, I can look it up and get a little more clear on the technology.
    Sorry, but the links are forbidden here. Will write you a private message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Ok, her mist will evaportate.
    You forget about the second process that takes place while evaporation - when the evaporation is fast, a water steam replaces an air in the fire-zone.

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    Lets not get Hasty with finding a new way to put us out of work
    Courage, Being Scared to Death and Saddling Up anyways.

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    Generally while fighting a ground fire, the best result for suppression and confinement is to flood the area with high lift volume pumps from nearby canals, lakes, oceans. A rain event comes through while fighting these fires, where only certain branches or divisions receive sprinkles. I have only noticed the droplets beading up on the ground, not pushing into the organics. Ground fires will also emit extreme heat. Just because its underground doesnt mean there is no heat. I dont see how this process will really help. Additionally I dont see how these machines can cover large areas of land. Ground fires will/can spread quickly underground and the typically the only way to observe this is the use of infrared/flir devices. So you may be putting the mist on one area while it has to your amazement spread a mile underground to another area where the machine is not putting the mist on.

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    to farmerfire1156
    Thank you for this comment, I'll ask people if they have any arguments for this.

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    The link was posted on this for a brief time on the 13th, but had an issue.

    I looked at the link and the process technology and it appears to be a massive/mega humidifier. I'm not sure if it would be effective in large hot western fires due to the shear amount of BTUs that would have to be overcome.

    While it appears to have some validity in test areas under some conditons, I am not convinced that the dynamics can be applied on a large scale. I suggested that FH might wish to explore and discuss the technology along with the applied science behind it.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    you know what puts out a wildland fire? (indeed most any fire) lack of fuel
    not water, not foam, or retardant dropped from the sky or balloons toting sprinklers, or fancy chemicals, or old jet engines spraying water, absence of fuel is what stops the spread of the fire. Whether this is achieved by cutting lines, explosives blasting down swaths of trees, or burning out in front of the head, it's still crews on the ground, creating firebreaks that stop most wildland fires.
    "If you can't be a good example, the you'll just have to be a terrible warning."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerJake72 View Post
    you know what puts out a wildland fire? (indeed most any fire) lack of fuel
    not water, not foam, or retardant dropped from the sky or balloons toting sprinklers, or fancy chemicals, or old jet engines spraying water, absence of fuel is what stops the spread of the fire. Whether this is achieved by cutting lines, explosives blasting down swaths of trees, or burning out in front of the head, it's still crews on the ground, creating firebreaks that stop most wildland fires.
    Spoken Like a True Dozer Man.
    Courage, Being Scared to Death and Saddling Up anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerJake72 View Post
    you know what puts out a wildland fire? (indeed most any fire) lack of fuel
    not water, not foam, or retardant dropped from the sky or balloons toting sprinklers, or fancy chemicals, or old jet engines spraying water, absence of fuel is what stops the spread of the fire. Whether this is achieved by cutting lines, explosives blasting down swaths of trees, or burning out in front of the head, it's still crews on the ground, creating firebreaks that stop most wildland fires.
    Maybe in your neck of the woods.

    The USA is so diverse that different techniques work.. uh.. differently.

    I have some areas of my section you can't get a dozer to and can't even use shovels. It's too rocky. Believe me, we pound away with pulaskis and council rakes.

    We use sprinklers for ground fire all the time. I don't think this misting gadget is something I'd be interested in.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Maybe in your neck of the woods.

    The USA is so diverse that different techniques work.. uh.. differently.

    I have some areas of my section you can't get a dozer to and can't even use shovels. It's too rocky. Believe me, we pound away with pulaskis and council rakes.

    We use sprinklers for ground fire all the time. I don't think this misting gadget is something I'd be interested in.
    Chief Jake's out of Florida a Big Tractor Plow state, I think we are all for new technology but sometimes it gets out of hand and a tad, for lack of a better word, Retarded.
    Courage, Being Scared to Death and Saddling Up anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhacker View Post
    Chief Jake's out of Florida a Big Tractor Plow state, I think we are all for new technology but sometimes it gets out of hand and a tad, for lack of a better word, Retarded.
    Yep, and Florida guys have it down to a system there!

    Believe me, i'm more lilkely to go old school and also mistrust new things fresh out of the box.

    "mist" doesn't really give me the warm fuzzies....
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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