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Thread: Tank to Pump

  1. #21
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    Question

    Iíd like to hear from some departments like Minneapolis, Fargo, or Winnipeg. Gets pretty cold there in the winter. What do they do?


  2. #22
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    Cool From Hale's Website.....

    Originally posted by FIREMECH1:
    I'd like to see in "black and white" where they are not designed/manufactured to stay in the open position. We've kept the T2P valves open for decades, and have never seen a warped, weakened, or broken linkage from keeping it open. If anything, the guide will better support an open valve, than the valve being closed, to just hang there.
    This is directly from Hale Pumps' Website.....

    [QUOTE]ALL VALVES, DRAIN-****S, AND CAPS
    SHOULD BE CLOSED.


    9. Open the tank suction valve.

    During Freezing Weather
    In freezing weather, drain the pump as follows:
    1. Open all discharge and suction valves, remove
    suction tube caps, and discharge valve caps.
    2. Open pump body drain ****s and/or Hale
    multiple drain valve.
    3. On two-stage pumps, move the transfer valve
    back and forth to both the volume and the
    pressure positions.
    4. After the pump is completely drained, replace
    all caps and close all valves.[/
    QUOTE]

    I read through the Pump Manual and read nothing about using Ivory Soap as a lubrication. We used to put Dove, Ivory or Palmolive in the Tank (a cheap Class A Foam and Tank Conditioner) but got away from that practice since nothing in the Pump Manual supported this.

    I respect that you're a Mechanic, but my suggestion is to do what the Manufacturer recommends. Seems to me that it's pretty cut and dry here.

    Originally posted by FIREMECH1:
    As well, no handle open extends past the body line, and is very close to the first compartment door. Never snagged a thing to date.
    You are probably not operating your Engines in "Urban Interface" as often as we are. In So. California we are often operating where the houses are tucked away in the trees and there is barely enough space to get a regular sized car through. I have personally seen valves handles get bent and tweaked from tree limbs and such. If you're not operating in this type of area and it works for you, then like I typed earlier, it's the culture of your Department then so be it.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

  3. #23
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    Default Open Valves Makes it Simple

    We have spec'd our units to have the Tank to Pump valve open in the IN position for the last 50 years with out problem. The basis of our decision was that most of our operations start with tank water and this change in valve handle configuration removed a potential mistake. ( I think someone screwed up badly on a call to start the discussion) In addition, since the pump is full, we do not have to hit the primer - the pump is ready to go. Just increase throttle and open line and water is moving.

    For positive pressure sources the check valve will keep the tank shut automatically. We routinely close the valve in this case to avoid intermittant loss from the tank if the incomming pressure gets too low to assure there is water in case of a total loss of the supply line so we can get the interior guys out.

    So the only time we really have to pull a valve is when we draft - about 2-4 times a year on calls

    The downside is a the potential for a BIG puddle under teh truck. If there are maintences issues with the packing or leaking valves this can be a problem since you can drain a significant amount of water between calls.

    We are located in the Philly suburbs (near CE 11) so freezing is not a problem during the drive to the call.


    Mike

  4. #24
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    Cool

    Originally posted by Squirt1262:
    We have spec'd our units to have the Tank to Pump valve open in the IN position for the last 50 years with out problem. The basis of our decision was that most of our operations start with tank water and this change in valve handle configuration removed a potential mistake. ( I think someone screwed up badly on a call to start the discussion) In addition, since the pump is full, we do not have to hit the primer - the pump is ready to go. Just increase throttle and open line and water is moving.

    For positive pressure sources the check valve will keep the tank shut automatically. We routinely close the valve in this case to avoid intermittant loss from the tank if the incomming pressure gets too low to assure there is water in case of a total loss of the supply line so we can get the interior guys out.
    Good going, I can see the common sense behind this. Just like I typed earlier, if you wanna keep the valve open just spec the Unit that way.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    ONLY ONE! Since temps here can go -20 PLUS we run DRY pumps in the winter. An OPEN TTP kinda defeats that practice.How long does it take to open a valve? T.C.

    thats great your dept. does that, but like I said, "why would we", my dept. we run wet pumps. How long does it take to open the valve is irrelevant if it isnt done to save time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post

    You are probably not operating your Engines in "Urban Interface" as often as we are. In So. California we are often operating where the houses are tucked away in the trees and there is barely enough space to get a regular sized car through. I have personally seen valves handles get bent and tweaked from tree limbs and such. If you're not operating in this type of area and it works for you, then like I typed earlier, it's the culture of your Department then so be it.....
    except for the condescending attitude, thats a nice thought. Not sure how you can tell the "culture of your department" from the position of a valve on the pump panel, but I've seen stranger things.
    Last edited by nameless; 02-18-2010 at 02:33 PM.

  6. #26
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt1262 View Post

    We are located in the Philly suburbs (near CE 11) so freezing is not a problem during the drive to the call.


    Mike
    Missed you at Engineers' Association meeting last night. Next one's April 21 at Towamencin. Be nice to see 12s represented.

  7. #27
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    Default

    [QUOTE=mikeyboy;1148087]Originally posted by FIREMECH1:


    This is directly from Hale Pumps' Website.....

    ALL VALVES, DRAIN-****S, AND CAPS
    SHOULD BE CLOSED.


    9. Open the tank suction valve.

    During Freezing Weather
    In freezing weather, drain the pump as follows:
    1. Open all discharge and suction valves, remove
    suction tube caps, and discharge valve caps.
    2. Open pump body drain ****s and/or Hale
    multiple drain valve.
    3. On two-stage pumps, move the transfer valve
    back and forth to both the volume and the
    pressure positions.
    4. After the pump is completely drained, replace
    all caps and close all valves.[/
    QUOTE]

    I read through the Pump Manual and read nothing about using Ivory Soap as a lubrication. We used to put Dove, Ivory or Palmolive in the Tank (a cheap Class A Foam and Tank Conditioner) but got away from that practice since nothing in the Pump Manual supported this.

    I respect that you're a Mechanic, but my suggestion is to do what the Manufacturer recommends. Seems to me that it's pretty cut and dry here.

    Originally posted by FIREMECH1:


    You are probably not operating your Engines in "Urban Interface" as often as we are. In So. California we are often operating where the houses are tucked away in the trees and there is barely enough space to get a regular sized car through. I have personally seen valves handles get bent and tweaked from tree limbs and such. If you're not operating in this type of area and it works for you, then like I typed earlier, it's the culture of your Department then so be it.....
    Yes you proved that in the Hale manual it says to closes the valves, after you drain the pump. Now try and find where it tell you that they need to be closed to prevent damage to the valve. The soap is to lube the valves it has nothing to do with the pump.

  8. #28
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    Default

    Add our department to the list of places that have the tank-to-pump valve valve plumbed so "in is open" and "out is closed." We've been doing this for a decade without any problems...we have about 30 engines plumbed this way, and have yet to have a problem riding around with the TTP open all the time.
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  9. #29
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Hey mikeyboy, your "quote" from Hale is for the other thread, "winter operations".

    So, to stay on the subject, again, please show me where any manufacturer recommends anything about the linkage being open or closed, or the T2P valve.

    I won't debate whether anybody should or shouldn't run the T2P valves open or closed, like I won't running a wet or dry pump in the winter. To each their own, for whatever reason.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

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    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Missed you at Engineers' Association meeting last night. Next one's April 21 at Towamencin. Be nice to see 12s represented.
    I wonder if Mogensen knows where Towamencin is?????
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  11. #31
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    Sam -

    I will put that on my calendar, keep forgeting about those County Engineer's meetings.

    Stay warm

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt1262 View Post
    Sam -

    I will put that on my calendar, keep forgeting about those County Engineer's meetings.

    Stay warm
    Always good to see you, Mike. Bring Mogie with you.

  13. #33
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    thats great your dept. does that, but like I said, "why would we", my dept. we run wet pumps. How long does it take to open the valve is irrelevant if it isnt done to save time.



    except for the condescending attitude, thats a nice thought. Not sure how you can tell the "culture of your department" from the position of a valve on the pump panel, but I've seen stranger things.
    Nameless, I believe it was YOU that asked WHY anyone Would. I just gave you a VERY good reason WHY. if you choose to leave yours open,no skin off my back. Won't work HERE,you'd have frozen pumps.We antifreeze our pumps from Nov thru March, I HATE surprises. Nothing condecending here, actual OR implied. Simply answering your "Why in the world would you?". NEVER had a pump freeze going to a call in the 40plus years I've been here,the same CANNOT be said for my neighbors who try to run "wet" pumps We don't winter ops like everyone else but what WE do WORKS and has been a PROVEN performer for OUR operations. Don't take it the wrong way,but I could care less if you run with your TTP valve open. When I STARTED, if you did that,you'd have an overfilled tank and a lake on the ground if you hooked a plug and didn't shut the Tank valve, they didn't have checkvalves back then. So I guess whatever works for your agency is how you should do it. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 02-19-2010 at 11:59 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Nameless, I believe it was YOU that asked WHY anyone Would. I just gave you a VERY good reason WHY. if you choose to leave yours open,no skin off my back. Won't work HERE,you'd have frozen pumps.We antifreeze our pumps from Nov thru March, I HATE surprises. Nothing condecending here, actual OR implied. Simply answering your "Why in the world would you?". NEVER had a pump freeze going to a call in the 40plus years I've been here,the same CANNOT be said for my neighbors who try to run "wet" pumps We don't winter ops like everyone else but what WE do WORKS and has been a PROVEN performer for OUR operations. Don't take it the wrong way,but I could care less if you run with your TTP valve open. When I STARTED, if you did that,you'd have an overfilled tank and a lake on the ground if you hooked a plug and didn't shut the Tank valve, they didn't have checkvalves back then. So I guess whatever works for your agency is how you should do it. T.C.
    Stating the reason to run with the TTP closed is because you run dry pumps isn't really useful input. Its fairly obvious one would have to have it closed to run the pumps dry unless you run with a dry tank. But like I said my post was "why on earth wouldn't WE" not why would you, or anyone. You can check if you don't believe me. All I hear are lame arguments about being lazy.Which is pretty silly, for a wet pump it hurts nothing and you'll need it open to pump or circulate. All you do is add an extra step for no benefit.

    The condescending comment wasn't directed at you, that was below the quote from the other poster.
    Last edited by nameless; 02-19-2010 at 10:48 PM.

  15. #35
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat
    Iíd like to hear from some departments like Minneapolis, Fargo, or Winnipeg. Gets pretty cold there in the winter. What do they do?
    Can't answer for them, but I can answer for Anchorage and Fairbanks, Alaska. Where I hear it gets pretty cold there.

    The FD training chief got a wild hair up his arse because a pumper couldn't flow water as a second due in at a working fire. The problem was that 2 of the 2 1/2 discharge lines were iced up, and couldn't flow water. The next day, in his "hero, to save the day/city" option, was to run dry pumps.

    From a EVT seminar a couple months earlier, I met two guys from Alaska, and had their contact info. I contacted them about them running wet or dry pumps. Both said their FD's ran wet pumps. I contacted the FD Chief, and the training chief, and also passed the contact info of the EVT's and the FD. A couple days later, we went back to wet pumps.

    Why were the discharges frozen??? Easy... The ball valve seals were in bad shape, and leaked, thus creating the problem. Lack of knowledge and maintenance on the acting (new driver) FAE's side is what caused it.

    There's more, but I think you get the idea.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  16. #36
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    In the winter I prefer to run with the discharge drains open which will help to reduce the potential of a discharge icing up. Again this all goes back to proper maintenance because if the valve leaks you will be losing some water in the station between calls depending upon the amount of water that can bypass the valve.

    Operator preference also comes into play. Some like the drains open in the cold, some don't. If you do open them you have to remember to close them when you charge the line. I've also heard the argument that it will be difficult to build pressure with the drain open. Like any good operator when the pump isn't working right you should start trouble shooting and realize the problem. I've also heard the argument that if you forget to close the drain and charge the line you will be making ice around the apparatus. If this occurs you can put down oil dry (sand, kitty litter, etc) to keep guys from slipping and if water comes out the drain it's because the line isn't frozen and still able to discharge water which is the purpose of an engine.
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  17. #37
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    Cool Clarification.....

    Originally posted by..... Well, Me.....
    You are probably not operating your Engines in "Urban Interface" as often as we are. In So. California we are often operating where the houses are tucked away in the trees and there is barely enough space to get a regular sized car through. I have personally seen valves handles get bent and tweaked from tree limbs and such. If you're not operating in this type of area and it works for you, then like I typed earlier, it's the culture of your Department then so be it.....
    This comment wasn't intended to be condensending..... And as far as the culture of a Department being able to be told by how a valve is, I agree you can't tell. However, the culture of a Department is reflected in how it trains it's Personnel at all Ranks. If the culture is to train the Engineers/Chauffeurs/Driver Operators to keep the valves open, then so be it. That was my point... The main thing is to have the Personnel on the same page.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

  18. #38
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    I leave mine open every day of every shift. Never created a problem, except for people who keep asking why I do it. I ask them why do they close it, and they can't give a good answer.

    The steamer, and discharge elbows stick out farther than the T-handle, so they'll get snagged long before the handle does. Many of our trucks are equipped with power operated T2P valves, so the control can be left in any position you like. Leaving it open prevents the pesky fireground failure of not opening when you need it.

    I also leave the tank fill cracked, that way when I get on scene of a fire, I can engage the pump and leave it alone for a while if I'm forced to anything before charging the line.

    Even after I've caught a hydrant, the tank-to-pump line stays open. It's equipped with a swing check valve, so no water makes it's way into my tank, but if there's a sudden loss of intake pressure, the swing check opens up and prevents cavitation, while the governor kicks in to correct the discharge pressure, which protects the flows of the guy's in the interior fighting fire.

    In my experience, there's only a handful of reason to ever close a T2P line, including but no limited to:
    • Your working on it
    • Your pumping from a draft
    • Freezing weather were it must be parked outside.
    Last edited by txgp17; 02-25-2010 at 12:36 AM.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    This comment wasn't intended to be condensending..... And as far as the culture of a Department being able to be told by how a valve is, I agree you can't tell. However, the culture of a Department is reflected in how it trains it's Personnel at all Ranks. If the culture is to train the Engineers/Chauffeurs/Driver Operators to keep the valves open, then so be it. That was my point... The main thing is to have the Personnel on the same page.
    so the culture can't be told by a valve postion, but if its the "culture" to train them to leave it open so be it? Do you just like to use the latest buzz words?

  20. #40
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    I thought a culture was something you found in a lab. T.C.

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