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Hi all. Quick question, is there any mechanical damage to leaving the tank to pump open at all times (ie. when sitting in quarters)? I know some often practice this so that when you get on scene you already have T-t-P open to charge the line while you secure your hydrant/water supply. Thanks for any help.
Does it really take that much longer for your pump operator to pull the lever once he is ready to pump?
Our engines all have handles that pull straight out from the pump panel to control the tank to pump valve, and having it out all the time would provide lots of opportunities for the handle to get caught on things or accidentally stepped on when firefighters are climbing up and down from the top of the apparatus. I don't think you would have any possibility of damage to the pump but the lever is another thing.
Also, if you are in a cold climate and you keep your pumps dry in the winter to prevent freezing, you wouldn't want to do this.
It is, or used to be common practice in Philadelphia. I have also seen engines where the valve handles were set up so that "in" was the open position and you pulled it out to close it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyboyfire
During our recent cold and heavy snow spell when we were running numerous "wires" calls, I left ours open as well as cracking the tank fill. Since in most of those cases it's unnecessary for me to leave the cab, I'd just put the pump in gear and start circulating water.
the handle shouldn't extend out that far in comparison to the body of the truck if at all. shouldn't be a problem, never has been on our trucks.
Why on earth would you need the TTP open on arrival? Its not actually going to save any time and will only serve to make people lazy and complacent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmfire
why on earth wouldn't we have it open? Can you articulate a factual reason or fact supported opinion on the benefits of having it closed? If an open tank to pump makes people "lazy and complacent" perhaps you need to spend more time studying the sources of the problem.
- Standard practice from end of the globe to another.
- Open valve is asking for something to hit it, snag it, step on it, or otherwise break it.
- Open valve collects crap and could prevent a good seal when closing it
- When you get in a habit of assuming the valve is open, it is only a matter of time before you burn out pump packings or someone doesn't get water because the valve was closed and you assumed it was open. (Complacency)
- You save ZERO time by doing this. There are no benefits. Why bother given all the cons.
A few of the guys I work with used to open the pump to tank valve and crack the tank fill valve and leave them that way. We have the pump operators recirculate water in the cold weather and this made it easier for them. I side with the lazy and complacent part of the argument.
One night responding to an alarm the engine in front me turning into driveway got the mid-ship running board rubbing up against/over a pile of snow, we get those in the northeast, could just have easily been a shrub, pile of trash, mail box, rock you get the idea. Well the snow pile hit the linkage for the pump master drain valve and opened it.
Now with the pump to tank valve and the pump fill valve closed you lose the 5 to 7 gallons of water in the pump, BUT with them open well.
Valves are put there for a reason that valve should be closed, otherwise you might not have water when you need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmfire
1.)thats a pretty weak argument. there are a lot of things that are/were standard practice around the globe that aren't that great.
2.) thats assuming its a pull out handle. not always the case. also get your people to not be a bunch of clods when climbing up and down from the top side of the truck.
3.) the same could be said about a closed valve. no matter what position the valve can collect crap. it can be argued that its preferable to leave it open, because if anything you'd want it to become stuck/fail in an open position. furthermore, an open valve promotes water movement which would most likely reduce "crap" collection.
4.) personnel issue. people become complacent because they are lazy, not because they leave valves open or closed. check your rig, pretty simple.
5.) who said it was done to save time? I haven't been shown any cons, except 1 personnel anecdote of a fluke.
I use it open. Why bother opening and closing it all the time? I look at it, make sure its open and move on. There are many other preset things on a fire truck. I wonder if you check all of them before use, since you love to through out the charge of laziness and complacency.
No, it will not cause any damage. It will just keep your pump wet. Make sure if you leave it open all the time you routinely clean any dirt off the valve handle rod and keep it greased. If you keep the valve open regularly, a piece of split loom or something to protect the rod from collecting road dirt is a good idea. Its a nice trick for in the winter when you want to circulate water (like CE11 says) without having to open both valves all the time. Its also nice when you are a 2 person company and don't want to waste time messing around to circulate your water on every EMS or bells run. As I type, ours is open with the tank fill cracked. I do not do this in the warmer months though.
we keep ours open all the time. they are set up so the in postion is open and the out position is closed.
one of the advantages we have found is if the pump is leaking a small amount, it will prevent all of the water leaking out of the pump and having to prime it on arrival. this could be a problem for slower companies as then the tank would leak down. however for us it works.
Completely dry or completely wet. No half way conditions. We used to have three (3) trailer mounted "OCD" pumpers from WW II civil defense. Single stage Hale with a Chrysler industrial 6 cylinder flat head engine. When you removed the suction hose, 1/2 the pump case still had water. At the air / waterline a chemical & electrical action takes place that slowly eats the brass ultimately damaging the impeller and the bronze sleeve bearings. Here on the Allegheny Plateau where winter can sometimes see -20 to -35, we love dry pumps. Especially when your MA company may be 20 or more miles away. We regularly need to replace TTP & PTT valves due to freezing of water between the ball and seat. It does not matter if you have a dry or wet pump, just try making a 20 min run at 60 mph and -20 deg. F. Even with pump house heaters, you sometimes have to forget the tank water and start with hydrant water. Wind up the pump a little bit (1,000 rpm) for a few minutes to warm the pump case & valves. Then everything will start to work properly. If you get frozen intake caps or valves, and can get your tank water started, take a small line and drizzle the warm water from the pump over the cap and valve to loosen the ice fro the cap. take the cap off and use the rubber mallet to break out the chunks. Once you are able to crack the valve, you will be able to thaw it out with moving water.
The intake screens on most pumps provide the cathodic protection for the pump when filled with water. You should periodically replace these screens to keep them from corroding to the point where pieces get sucked through or into impellers.
we leave our closed ...............
When I was assigned as Engine Company Chauffeur (when I was being disciplined and sent to the engine company as a punishment) I would always run with the T 2 P open. When the weather went below freezing, per Dept SOP T 2 P was closed, and pump fully drained.
I'm with nameless on this. Every one of our companies that I've ever worked on leave tank-to-pump open all the time, all times of the year, and usually the tank fill in the winter. So that's (until recently) 26 pumps running 25k calls a year or so, and no incidents with the valve that anyone can remember, at least for the last 2 or 3 decades. Must have something to do with the fact that we don't climb the pump panels.
I'm all for getting all fired up and pounding on the table, but can't we do it about an actual problem, instead of an invented one?
[QUOTE=nmfire;1147118]- Standard practice from end of the globe to another.
Obviously not, I can say for certain that Boston Fire keeps their TTP always open.
When I was an Engineer I kept mine close. As a Captain, I have my Engineer's keep it closed due to the chance of catching it on something and also deforming the handle/lever from road vibrations and body pitching. They are not designed or manufactured to be kept open and will eventually warp, weaken and break. If that is how your Department wants to do it then I would suggest when you spec-out your Units then ask the Manufacturer to install the ball valves backwards that way the handles are in and the Tank to Pump Valve is open and closed when you pull it out. That's just a thought though.....
Hey, if it's your Departments culture then so be it but try and follow your Manufactures' recommendations since that's how they've designed it. Trust me, they've devoted millions of dollars on researching this type of stuff.
Our department policy is to have the pump "staged" with the tank to pump fully open and the tank fill 1/4 to 1/2 open. We do this year around. Our operators are taught to engage the pump when on scene, especially in cold weather, and if they get side tracked for what ever reason we don't hurt the pump.
All valves get worked at least weekly during maintenance. Majority of engines are top mount. On the side mounts the lever does not stick out past the body of the apparatus. We have to replace tank to pump or tank fill valves at the same rate as other valves on the trucks.
I'd like to see in "black and white" where they are not designed/manufactured to stay in the open position. We've kept the T2P valves open for decades, and have never seen a warped, weakened, or broken linkage from keeping it open. If anything, the guide will better support an open valve, than the valve being closed, to just hang there. As well, no handle open extends past the body line, and is very close to the first compartment door. Never snagged a thing to date.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyboy
I'd really like to see where any manufacturer spent anywhere from $10 to a million dollars on whether the valve should be kept open or closed. Much less, their recommendation on such either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyboy
As for open or closed it doesn't really matter as long as the seals are doing their job, and your working them weekly, and using Ivory soap once a month to help lube and protect the seals.
FM1
ONLY ONE! Since temps here can go -20 PLUS we run DRY pumps in the winter. An OPEN TTP kinda defeats that practice.How long does it take to open a valve? T.C.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless